If I'm reading it correctly, close. In CE-Reach, if you clicked the joystick while it was in the move position, your character would stop, crouch, and then move in that direction again. You didn't have to move your joystick to the neutral.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Halo 5: Guardians |OT5| Is HaloGAF irrelevant now?
- Thread starter sir_dany12
- Start date
If I'm reading it correctly, close. In CE-Reach, if you clicked the joystick while it was in the move position, your character would stop, crouch, and then move in that direction again. You didn't have to move your joystick to the neutral.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Just tested 'em -
- CE-Reach: Can't crouch while walking full speed nor is it feasible while strafing, but you can if you're moving slowly. In CE specifically though, if you're crouching then tilt the joystick fully, it'll automatically transition you into walking.
- H2A: Spamming crouch while moving full speed only dips you slightly. Your character slightly dips similarly to if you bumped on a piece of geometry lol, and you can't crouch effectively during strafe.
- H4/H5: Crouch game is strong; can crouch effectively while strafing and while walking full speed.
nillapuddin
Member
Real question, not trying to be sarcastic
Is there anyone out there who actually enjoyed Firefight after ODST?
I get that Gruntpocalypse was an easy grind, but did anyone actually like that better than the tension and challenge of ODST?
Is there anyone out there who actually enjoyed Firefight after ODST?
I get that Gruntpocalypse was an easy grind, but did anyone actually like that better than the tension and challenge of ODST?
Forerunner
Member
I enjoyed Reach's FF. Sure it wasn't as good as ODST, but it was still fun for me. H5's WZFF is just garbage.
I enjoy the occasional round of Warzone Firefight, although it's not really comparable to ODST's firefight.
Reach's firefight was just boring.
I don't think that tension which ODST had would really work when you're playing as a Spartan.
I liked aspects of both ODSTs and Reach's and they both had issues that other one could have addressed.
ODST:
- needed the ability to set an end goal, time limit, etc
- should have kept getting harder past set 5 (just keep amping up AI response, damage, etc) to make surviving past set 5 on Lost Platoon and others a little more dramatic and tense, or just end after set 5 anyway since it no longer adds anything to the difficulty level
- obviously an engine tech restriction, but having it all end because someone lost connection was painful
+ it felt scarier
+ a lot more tense
+/- but once you mastered the the brute hammer juke move, it wasn't hard anymore.
Reach:
+ could have an end goal of time / points.
- the matchmaking variants never had an ODST-like survival gametype, even though it technically did support doing it and had a cR cap anyway, so it wasn't possible to just sit in Firefight MM all day and cash out 6 mil creds or something
+ the ability to play Firefight VS and help out the AI (even though it was only a short lived playlist in MM)
- the downside of FF VS was that the maps needed to be bigger to make it less obvious where players were coming from (and also, input lag)
+ a lot more consistent map quality
+ Heretic Elite waves were kiss-your-ass-goodbye moments, but
- were underused in the MM variants
Ghaleon worked with the community and the sustain team at the time to sort of reboot the mode, which were called <gametype> NEP, but they were alongside the base variant.
Also, the absurd modes in reach like gruntpoc and others? yeah, couldn't play them too much, but i see how they were better for the matchmaking populate / palette. I just wish they had done a sort of "Firefight Classic" list with endless and Heretic Elite waves at the end to make it an accomplishment to survive them.
tl;dr if i could sort of moosh ODST and Reach FF together, I'd have my ideal FF.
ODST:
- needed the ability to set an end goal, time limit, etc
- should have kept getting harder past set 5 (just keep amping up AI response, damage, etc) to make surviving past set 5 on Lost Platoon and others a little more dramatic and tense, or just end after set 5 anyway since it no longer adds anything to the difficulty level
- obviously an engine tech restriction, but having it all end because someone lost connection was painful
+ it felt scarier
+ a lot more tense
+/- but once you mastered the the brute hammer juke move, it wasn't hard anymore.
Reach:
+ could have an end goal of time / points.
- the matchmaking variants never had an ODST-like survival gametype, even though it technically did support doing it and had a cR cap anyway, so it wasn't possible to just sit in Firefight MM all day and cash out 6 mil creds or something
+ the ability to play Firefight VS and help out the AI (even though it was only a short lived playlist in MM)
- the downside of FF VS was that the maps needed to be bigger to make it less obvious where players were coming from (and also, input lag)
+ a lot more consistent map quality
+ Heretic Elite waves were kiss-your-ass-goodbye moments, but
- were underused in the MM variants
Ghaleon worked with the community and the sustain team at the time to sort of reboot the mode, which were called <gametype> NEP, but they were alongside the base variant.
Also, the absurd modes in reach like gruntpoc and others? yeah, couldn't play them too much, but i see how they were better for the matchmaking populate / palette. I just wish they had done a sort of "Firefight Classic" list with endless and Heretic Elite waves at the end to make it an accomplishment to survive them.
tl;dr if i could sort of moosh ODST and Reach FF together, I'd have my ideal FF.
I haven't liked any version of firefight as much as the original.
Just pure, unadulterated fun.
I think adding customization options was a good thing, but I'd have also liked to play regular firefight with no end goal.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Regular Firefight should definitely come back. I'd be open to a WZFF 2.0 as well but they got a lot of work to do on that one.
VincentMatts
Member
To me, "feeling" like Halo is more than just removing a sprint or not. I think a franchise can evolve and add gameplay elements it didnt have before while still feeling like Halo. As long as its still: shoot, melee, grenades, then thats still halo. The big problem i have with 343s halos is that they dont look or sound like halo anymore. The MP gameplay in 5, is the absolute best its been, even better than 2 for me. But the maps, the music, the enemies, none of them feel like Halo anymore and that bothers me a lot more than the sprint or clamber.
I understand that 343 want to make it their halo and that would be ok on spin offs or something, but for the main games they need to stop making everything sound, look and feel so different. I dont want electric sounding music in my main halo, i want marty sounding music. I dont want mass effect enemies or looking planets, i want bungie looking planets and enemies. In spin offs, do whatever you want. In main halos, stop changing everything. Its not complicated.
And my favorite overall is still Halo CE, easily.
liked odst, it gets tense and challenging. wasnt a fan of reach. warzone is just completely different. wish they would make it back horde style
RedSparrows
Member
I'd like to see a bigger Warzone Firefight, but also a mode that offers a 'purer' ODST-esque experience.
Scavenge, limited lives, insane difficulty after 3/4th set.
Scavenge, limited lives, insane difficulty after 3/4th set.
What counts as Halo or how Halo should "feel" is quite an interesting discussion imo.
It's also one of the points which makes discussing Halo with some of the more... passionate Halo fans incredibly frustrating.
For me, three things are needed for a game to feel like Halo to me:
1. The shield system
2. Perfectly accurate hipfire + no movement penalty when zoomed (is: no ads)
3. Freedom of movement. There's very few artificial constraints in how you move around the map. Maps arent a series of corridors/pathways with set dressing, they're actual 3D spaces which, with the movement tools at your disposal, you can move around in whichever way you like.
So how do you guys define Halo?
It's also one of the points which makes discussing Halo with some of the more... passionate Halo fans incredibly frustrating.
For me, three things are needed for a game to feel like Halo to me:
1. The shield system
2. Perfectly accurate hipfire + no movement penalty when zoomed (is: no ads)
3. Freedom of movement. There's very few artificial constraints in how you move around the map. Maps arent a series of corridors/pathways with set dressing, they're actual 3D spaces which, with the movement tools at your disposal, you can move around in whichever way you like.
So how do you guys define Halo?
Yes to all of these.
I also think Run+Gun is an important characteristic. It enhances the freedom of movement you talk about in your 3rd point. Being able to make all of the jumps, while looking/shooting in a different direction is a freedom that is immediately removed by the sprint mechanic.
Being able to pressure/engage/evade all at the same time feels like halo to me. Having to choose feels less so.
I think the scaling required to support advanced movement has also lead to aesthetic changes that make maps feel less Halo-y. More segmenting of sightlines to accommodate players who aren't sprinting through corridors that are stretched to accommodate sprint. Then there's the deliberate placement of walls and ledges just so that certain SAs are required to access certain areas.
I wouldn't be against wall jumping to be honest.
I'd prefer wall jumping to clamber tbh. Much less restrictive- can be used in any direction w/o removing your ability to shoot. More opportunity to reward map knowledge and creativity for players who can learn to jump from walls that aren't directly in front of them.
Christ they took that awesome concept art behind the shed and fucking destroyed it.
Yup, wouldn't hurt the core gameplay unlike some current additions.
Big head is big.
Someone must love bees or something.
(not a fan of the honeycomb either. seems needlessly complicated)
Forerunner
Member
Seriously, that pic is terrible.
Yup its a good addition that would work well within the Halo sandbox imo
Samurai G0SU
Member
yeah, i hate clamber lol. feels bad for those who try and clamber to escape but you get em and get that medal "cliffhanger" lol
Zeus The Dino
Member
VincentMatts
Member
lol i dont know how to react anymore
Nope.
I'd prefer just plain old crouch jump and spring jump.
But wall jump, as seen in Unreal, would be better than what we have now, IMO, for the reasons I've listed.
I don't see how it would break things, and if done right, would increase skill gap- unlike clamber and maps designed around sprint.
I'm open to hearing arguments against it other than, it's not old halo. I think it could exist w/o breaking the sandbox. But like I said, in fine with just old halo too...
Also needs double jump, hard light energy grappling hooks...
Gotta have something for the PC gamers.
I acknowledge the issues clamber introduced such as reducing the skill gap when jumping and the effects on map design*, however, it just feels so damn clunky and slow playing without it. I hope they keep it but add the ability to clamber backwards.
*Although I don't really dislike the effect on the maps.
I think H5 with HCS settings is a fantastic blend of modern and classic Halo in this regard. Discouraging sprint through the radar gives that feeling of run and gun gameplay whilst still allowing for the more aggressive feel associated with sprint. I'd really like to see it be the base for H6's arena.
*Although I don't really dislike the effect on the maps.
The run and gun aspect isn't so important for me although I can understand why some would disagree.
I think H5 with HCS settings is a fantastic blend of modern and classic Halo in this regard. Discouraging sprint through the radar gives that feeling of run and gun gameplay whilst still allowing for the more aggressive feel associated with sprint. I'd really like to see it be the base for H6's arena.
Clamber makes everything slower they put in a bunch of walls that are too high to clear naturally, so you have to hit the wall, and waste frames pulling yourself up. Then waste more frames pulling your gun up again.
Those frames last all of about half a second.
ITT: Sprint and clamber are detrimental to gameplay, Spartan charge is OP and Ground Pound is broken.
Also ITT: Let's add wallrunning.
EDIT: You can crouch jump like 90% of the jumps that you can vanilla jump+clamber to, if you want to skip the whole five frames of climbing up and pulling out your gun, which would really only be punishing if you were literally jumping up into a guy's line of sight, which is a fucking terrible play already that you're gonna get dunked on entering regardless unless he just totally shits the bed and misses the first two shots.
Also ITT: Let's add wallrunning.
EDIT: You can crouch jump like 90% of the jumps that you can vanilla jump+clamber to, if you want to skip the whole five frames of climbing up and pulling out your gun, which would really only be punishing if you were literally jumping up into a guy's line of sight, which is a fucking terrible play already that you're gonna get dunked on entering regardless unless he just totally shits the bed and misses the first two shots.
Who's is slower than 0 seconds and long enough to get taken to half shields.
with clamber being forward only, also Add in the time it would take to turn and engage someone who isn't directly in front of you.
It certainly doesn't make the game play faster.
Jumping, not running and saying it as a replacement for clambering
VincentMatts
Member
wall jumping is the line that would make halo dead to me. When i hear what you guys think are viable options for Halo, it depresses me. God i hope 343 dont come in here too often, for their sakes.
Tbf, I didn't see a single post in favor of wall running.
Also, no matter what there are going to be time where you have to react. Clamber increases your reaction time, no matter how you want to slice it. It's a horrible play to clamber into someone's line of sight BECAUSE you can't defend yourself while clambering. But without having to clamber, that same play is much less dangerous, because it becomes purely your aim vs his.
There are 1million different scenarios where it might make sense to pressure someone in this manner (the player could be weak, or about to cap a flag, or unaware of your presence... etc), but the fact that you have to clamber makes that decision less reasonable because it gives the opponent more opportunity to assume an advantage.
Poodlestrike
Banned
The "clamber slows down gameplay" argument is kind specious to me. It takes a fraction of a second and is usually bracketed by map traversal that takes way longer. Feels like going at the weird thing rather than the real issue (big ass maps).
It literally takes just 1.1 seconds to get killed. Clamber focuses your attention in one direction, and limits your ability to shoot until the animation is complete. How is that "fraction of a second" neglible? ... engagements are literally about being most efficient in split second scenarios.
Why are people in favor of frivolous animations arbitrarily interrupting combat?
The fact that map traversal "takes" way longer is moot considering you can shoot and look in all directions while traversing the map (unless your are sprinting- which is also problematic AND the reason maps are so stretched)
VincentMatts
Member
why have a gun switching animation then? It arbitrarily interrupting combat. Weapons should just spawn in your hands instantly.
I am so outta here.
It makes vertical movement far smoother and less floaty (probably a better word than slow). It's faster because it reduces the precision required in jumps, you don't need to perfectly position and one yourself up. I completely understand that this reduces the skill ceiling but frankly I don't really care because it makes the game feel so much smoother to control.
Also, i think it might have been Frankie who said it in one of the vidocs but it's incredibly frustrating when you try to do a jump and your toe clips the ledge and you fall.
On the topic though, another change I'd make is to allow players to shoot whilst clambering. Boom, solves the interrupting animation issue which apparently slows the game down whilst still keeping smoother movement. Although it does remove one of the more interesting map design options which clamber can offer.
In this situation is it the fault of clamber that the player is entering a lopsided engagement or the fault of the player's ability to form coherent short-term strategy? Like I mentioned earlier, you could just crouch jump up to the player if you absolutely needed to engage them and mitigate any kind of delay, or you could find another angle of attack and not engage where you're at a blatant disadvantage, or you could soften him up with a grenade and then clamber up, or you could team shoot him, or you could do anything other than do a thing that you know will put you at a direct situational disadvantage that you almost certainly can't overcome.
Same with this. If you whiff a melee should you just be able to cancel out of the animation to shoot to mitigate your fuckup? Or should you not have to reload because you can't manage your ammo? Or should you not have to switch weapons? There's a difference between features that break the flow of the game, like armor lock and jet pack, and barriers that fundamentally unskilled players have to overcome in order to display basic competence, such as basic map navigation and situational awareness.
I don't work there so my opinion doesn't matter much *shrugs*
Munch Poke
Member
It's funny the only change I'd really hate is the implementation of HCS radar on all playlists. I know how a lot of folks here feel about the radar but to me that's what makes Halo feel right. It's certainly how I've trained myself to play over the last ten years or so. Just give me straight no radar if we're going ultra try hard.
That half working unreliable radar shit would only make me hate H6. Maybe I'd adjust after a very long period of time but jesus it's frustrating.
That half working unreliable radar shit would only make me hate H6. Maybe I'd adjust after a very long period of time but jesus it's frustrating.
Gun switching isn't arbitrarily interrupting combat though. It rewards proper resource management and is key to balancing weapons against each other.
Terrible analogy...
It's not half working or unreliable.
It's very simple, if you're just moving around the map then you don't show up. If you sprint or shoot (or stabilize) you do.
This is kinda true. I do like how you can use clamber to cancel the hang time when going lifts and what not. The problem comes when jumps require clamber, which reduces player angency. If jumps were properly spaced so that you'd can clear w/o clamber I could live with it[
Git Gud lol
Let's add shooting while sprinting too 😋
Clamber's animation isn't arbitrarily interrupting combat. It rewards good map movement and allows designers to balance certain routes through the map.
It's not as bad an analogy as you claim.
Many jumps can be crouch jumped though. More often than not there's a route you can take which won't require clamber and will just be slightly slower. It's one of those trade off situations. You trade being exposed whilst clambering for a slightly faster/more direct route.
The point you are missing is that the strategy is poor BECAUASE the clamber requirement is making it less viable. The existence of the mechanic and the way maps were designed around it is THE REASON the play isn't smart. Yes you can find other ways - but you wouldn't have to if the developer didn't cut off this particular way with an arbitrary mechanic.
This is the same flawed comparison Vincent made. It's not the same as someone missing a melee or running out of ammo. A better comparison would be if 343 arbitrarily added mechanics that made executing these basic functions less viable- what if assassinations were a part of any backsmacks in Halo6?
You could argue, "hey if you die trying to backsmack guy when he's got help nearby it's your own fault, you shoulda done something different". You'd be right, but the fact is- the backsmack would have been more viable if it was still instant kill. It was the design change that made the strategy less viable. This is the same effect clamber has had.
Disagree, there are tons of jumps that can't be properly crouch jumps, it does interrupt combat and limit combat options, and I don't think designers had problems balancing route prior- in fact halo 5 maps appear to have been much harder to balance thanks to SAs being used in unintended manners.
Just like with sprint, I'm not a fan of havingto sacrifice my ability to shoot just to move around. If they didn't design maps around clamber, I'd be much more agreeable to its inclusion, because then it's a player's choice to take that risk, not the designer's choice to require players to face a certain way to make a jump.
Putting your gun down just to run or reach high places = good
Not having to put your gun down to run or reach high places = bad
Gotcha... Halo was trash before 343 got to it...