Yeah, that's what I don't understand about people complaining about the Ganondorf unlock. It's pretty artificial difficulty; nothing else changes about the game except you take more damage.
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Has amiibo gone too far? (Twilight Princess HD)
- Thread starter Tevious
- Start date
Yeah, that's what I don't understand about people complaining about the Ganondorf unlock. It's pretty artificial difficulty; nothing else changes about the game except you take more damage.
Joelstinton14
Member
I don't think they would because Amiibo's aren't actually that intrusive to the user's experience with exception of Shovel Knight which sadly puts Co-Op behind it. The reason there is no uproar is because what is locked behind them is..well not that much. They don't really affect the user interaction with the game, they're just little extras.
I think people would really start to complain if these Amiibos were being shipped with broken or incomplete games or lacking in general content.
Aside from Smash Tennis, Games like Smash and Hyrule Warriors are brimmed full of content and value as they are. I think people feel they are not getting shortchanged by what they are receiving game wise, and Amiibo wise.
I think one common thing that as come out of this thread, which i think we can agree on is supplying some of the functionality of Amiibo's such as the remixed single player maps as digital downloadable content.
I do share some concerns, and worried that in the future something major will be locked behind one, but so far that hasn't happened. I still think Nintendo are testing what parameters they can push this , which may result in some harsher implementation of Amiibo, but i think Nintendo have got the balance right and are well aware of the backlash they would receive if it went beyond what it currently is.
Most collectable don't even do as much an Amiibo do. They sit there and look pretty.
From what I have seen, most of the fan base obviously likes amiibos but a small part is indifferent or dislike them.
You need amiibo to play 1/3rd of Mario Party 10. The Splatoon amiibo unlock missions for replay value which in turn gives you minigames and clothes you cant get any other way. Shovel Knight's amiibo lets you do co-op, customize your knight and play challenge stages.
I consider all of that significant content compared to say Mario Maker costumes. Feel free to disagree though.
The only bummer with the Splatoon ones I'd say are the minigames, especially as one is technically the music test mode which is usually a standard game feature. The missions aren't anything special since it is just repeating the levels from the single player which isn't even the meat and potatoes of the game. I think an Amiibo exclusive costume is fair dos (and probably what should have been the only reward) in a game with lots of outfits including extras ones that were added for free and the weapons are just skins of the default weapons so no benefits there.
The big problem with them is that Splatoon was a new IP so the figurines were made alongside the game and thus their content was seen as an additional expense rather than a bonus for those who may have already had the figurine, that and they were the only Amiibo compatible with the game.
I'd guess if they have Amiibo content for Splatoon 2 and it uses the same Amiibo there will be less negativity for it because then it would be seen as a clear reward for those who already owned the Amiibo.
Also helps that the Inkling Squid Amiibo is now sold separately rather than part of a bundle.
Yep.
And the 1/3 of Mario Party 10 is just a stripped down version of the main game. Wouldn't consider it as significant since in the end by playing the main mode you can do much more.
Though in the end it just shows that what's significant for some is not for others.
And even the OP shows this.
No problems with amiibo unlocking insignificant stuff like replenishing hearts or arrows, but problem with amiibo making you take more damage and unlocking a remixed dungeon that gives you a bigger wallet to carry more money.
Two things others has posted as insignificant (more damage done but enemies still have the same "easy" difficulty...and a bigger wallet to buy nothing); but are significant to him.
(No offense to the OP since I mention this a second time and it may sound like I'm attacking him...
)
Papacheeks
Banned
You mean Skylanders, and Disney Infinity don't add new character's, levels, costumes to their "Dedicated" games?
Please just stop.
If Microsoft and Sony did this it would not work outside of just people wanting to collect. Unless they made games that supported a reason to have them. Even then I think they understand that Sky;ander's, and Disney Infinity are enough for the market.
It has everything to do with the conversation between people who buy collectibles and people who refuse too. Putting DLC behind a figure is fucking stupid. It's one thing if they are meant to be added to a gameas expansion characters, it's another to put DLC for other games behind a figure that should be on the store for optional purchase.
Tevious
Member
Didn't you read my OP? Ganondorf amiibo could be equated to a difficulty mode. A difficulty mode is now being locked behind a physical toy DLC pass. In a game as ridiculously easy as TP was, this amiibo balances the game to be more challenging without consciously setting arbitrary limits on yourself. It gives x2 damage to the base game and x4 damage while in Hero Mode. Sure, you could just collect half or less the amount of heart pieces to get a similar result, but then you're making a conscious effort to balance the game difficulty yourself and you're missing out on part of the collectability aspect of the game. If you don't want to play in the mirror world, then Hero Mode isn't an option and then this amiibo is the only way to get that x2 damage multiplier.
On the other hand, as has been mentioned many times, the Twilight Cave is just a re-skin of the Cave of Ordeals in Wolf-Link form. The reward is useless and CoO wasn't that interesting to begin with. While the practice of locking that kind of content behind a toy figure is pretty shitty, it's a much easier pill to swallow than something as useful as a x2 damage multiplier, which as I said, is essentially a difficulty mode.
And even the OP shows this.
No problems with amiibo unlocking insignificant stuff like replenishing hearts or arrows, but problem with amiibo making you take more damage and unlocking a remixed dungeon that gives you a bigger wallet to carry more money.
Two things others has posted as insignificant (more damage done but enemies still have the same "easy" difficulty...and a bigger wallet to buy nothing); but are significant to him.
(No offense to the OP since I mention this a second time and it may sound like I'm attacking him...
The x2 damage multiplier is significant to me, the Twilight Cave is just more of a questionable DLC practice that I think normally people would be outraged with if it weren't Nintendo and amiibo. The Cave should have just been a bonus for buying the game, but honestly I probably wouldn't spend much time in there if it was. It's not significant to me in importance, but I think it's significant in that it's a sizable content that's being locked behind a Day One toy figure DLC pass.
True, but it still increases difficulty in that it's much easier to die when you do get hit. It forces you to play more carefully, like in a Souls game, instead of just lazily going through mobs because they only take a quarter heart damage when they hit you. Suggesting that people need to balance the game themselves by purposely taking 50% damage before playing it absurd and you know it. What if you accidentally run into a fairy? Then you need to go out of your way to damage yourself back to where you were before? FFS... c'mon.
Linkstrikesback
Member
That's nice. The game ships with (at least) three difficulty modes though. One is amiibo locked. Lets not do this stupid dance again.
The amount of people willing to argue that locking difficultly options behind day 1 dlc is damn amazing.
There's a whole lot more to collectables than Amiibo, Skylanders and Disney Infinity.
There was even [thread=1179977]a thread about them[/thread] the other day.
So no, I will not stop just because you decided to ignore/don't like the facts.
What if the effect of the Ganondorf amiibo only lasted after limited number of hits? For example, tapping Link will only replenish arrows once and tapping Zelda will only replenish hearts once a day. Say with Ganon, once you get hit 3 times or something, the 2x multiplier ends and you're back to normal damage? Would it make a difference?
Tevious
Member
Someone already explained the details of how it works. It lasts until you die or exit the game. It can be reused as much as you want.
If you're asking how I'd feel if it worked like that, then yes, it'd be less significant, but only because it's now limited for no reason. It'd be pretty useless if it only worked for 3 hits because most enemies would only do either a half heart damage or full heart damage (double that for Hero Mode). 3 hearts out 10+ is nothing.
Is it different? Yes. Would it make a difference... Yes.
It'll be interesting to see how amiibo evolve because I want nothing to do with them, so they are nothing more than terrible DLC to me. Just going to throw my biases out there and say I really dislike amiibo.
That's what I said. It is significant to you and it could be argued that you've even attibuted more significance than even Nintendo and Tantalus when they added it to the game.
Which is the problem in this kind of threads. Since if you didn't considered it significant, you wouldn't have made a thread.
From your posts, you don't seem to be pissed off at amiibo locking content in general, but at amiibo locking content that you like.
Which is why I said it varies. Like the other poster that mentioned 1/3 of Mario Party 10 locked behind amiibo. Which as a number looks significant, 6 boards locked behind amiibo even.
Until you play it and notice that the amiibo mode is just square-shaped boards that you go around collecting coins and stars. Like the rest of the game but more simple, no car and individually. Plays more like a normal board game. And it plays slower even because of tapping amiibo at each turn. I even remember some actually saying that "the classic Mario Party is locked behing amiibo". While afteer release many found that it's a lesser and worse version of the game.
Which goes back to what I said about attributing more significance than what it is.
Is okay to voice concern, frustration and disappointment. And is okay that you find the damage multiplier that the Gannondorf amiibo adds as a significant addition to you, but remember that others will see it at just "so it makes enemies do 2x damage...wow...what a deal".
Tevious
Member
Its not so much that I have a problem with them locking content that I like, its that they're locking content that is anti-consumer. There's a huge difference between locking a costume behind amiibo and locking away a difficulty level. Surely, you can understand that? If the amiibo features in this game were costumes/mods that say let you play the game as either Zelda or Ganondorf instead of Link, then that would be something I would like, but I'd be okay with amiibo doing that. I probably still wouldn't buy the amiibo, though. I'd maybe be disappointed that you couldn't buy it on the eshop as DLC, but that's it.
NoHeDidn't
Member
We all know Amiibo and Ninty supporters will say they see no problem but nickle and diming is always bad for the consumer.
As a F U to Amiibo culture just go buy the Amiiqo at Modchip or something and bam all amiibos for a one time fee.
As a F U to Amiibo culture just go buy the Amiiqo at Modchip or something and bam all amiibos for a one time fee.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Yeah. A thread about collectible statues is the exact same as NFC figures.
You showed that poster! Rock on!
Acerac
Banned
Nintendo wouldn't have added multiple difficulty modes without Amiibo. A hero mode is standard in Zelda remakes, none have an additional double damage modifier on top of that. This is not something you would have otherwise been able to access.
I understand. But even having the amiibo I don't consider it as significant as you do. Even watching the trailer I was just "well at least they shoehorned something".
Then again I'm getting kinda old...at 34. Many have accused me at been too calm. XD
You should go back all the way to the original poster he even replied to. The one that called all of them crap and from then on so that reply makes sense.
He meant collectibles in general and earlier exactly mentioned collectibles that just look pretty. It was the other poster (and you) implying he meant NFC figures.
When did I say Activision was doing the right thing?
Tevious
Member
If it were a smartphone app, maybe. But it's a $50-$90 plastic chip. So far, I'm only really interested in one amiibo feature that should be included in the base game, so that hardly justifies buying anything, outside of it being a legal gray area.
I've discussed this argument before many times in this thread already. Now we're getting into what if statements. What if the mirror world was tacked onto hero mode rather than being an additional option because the Ganondorf amiibo exists as an alternative?
That the only way to get 4x damage is by having the Ganondorf amiibo is unfortunate. Once you know it is a possibility it's legitimately frustrating knowing the only way to get it is by having the figure. But let's not kid ourselves here: you wouldn't have that option without amiibo at all. It's not that it couldn't be there without it, it just wouldn't.
It's still a locked difficulty setting, yes, but I mean...I guess I would like to see some sort of digital amiibo so I wouldn't have to get a bunch of figures, but I don't know how mad one can really be when stepping down from the moral high ground and looking at the situation the way it really is. This wouldn't be here without amiibo. So basically: amiibo prevents me from getting things I want, but amiibo made the game have the things in the first place. Very conflicting.
The one example where I'm 100% negative towards the amiibo implementation is Splatoon. Those challenges and extra mini-games don't feel like they were created with amiibo in mind at all.
It's still a locked difficulty setting, yes, but I mean...I guess I would like to see some sort of digital amiibo so I wouldn't have to get a bunch of figures, but I don't know how mad one can really be when stepping down from the moral high ground and looking at the situation the way it really is. This wouldn't be here without amiibo. So basically: amiibo prevents me from getting things I want, but amiibo made the game have the things in the first place. Very conflicting.
The one example where I'm 100% negative towards the amiibo implementation is Splatoon. Those challenges and extra mini-games don't feel like they were created with amiibo in mind at all.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
People have said this already, but it's not like that damage setting is some massive undertaking by Nintendo that they need to recoup costs for. It's a switch.
Acerac
Banned
This is me being genuinely ignorant here, but doesn't Nintendo practically never give these kind of options? Nintendo is rather crappy when it comes to these sort of things, I guess they may have started offering way more options than they had previously, but that seems pretty optimistic and generous considering Nintendo's typical output.
Yeah and Nintendo sucks at giving options.
Have they ever done anything like that previously?
It's not that they couldn't, it's that they wouldn't.
Tevious
Member
It's reasonable to assume that they included the mirror world so people who played the Wii version could play in the world that they were already familiar with, or alternatively that people who played the GameCube version could play the mirror world as something different. Them including the mirror world at all, in addition to the original non-mirrored world, is that they wanted to give players a choice since the code already exists for the mirror world. WW HD did not have a mirror world with the Hero Mode, but OoT3D Master Quest did.
So it's conceivably possible that their line of thought could be that including the mirror world with the Hero Mode would make it similar to OoT3D and if people want to play x2 damage without the mirror world, they have that option in the form of the Ganondorf amiibo. I don't think Nintendo/Tantalus really put much thought into it at all and it probably never occurred to them that people outside of die hard fans with play-styles like the 3 heart challenge would ever be interested in having x4 damage. Or that people would value playing in Hero Mode without the mirror world because they already played it that way in the Wii version. The port is likely a rush job and they're making stupid and lazy decisions. That's why they haven't fixed anything with the long boring beginning village and why they haven't bumped up the game's piss easy game difficulty (outside of Hero Mode and Ganondorf amiibo). Hell, maybe they even recognized that this game is too easy and if amiibo didn't exist, they might have addressed the game's overall difficulty while including the Hero Mode too (as a standard feature of recent Zelda games), but they took the lazy way out by making it an option with the Ganondorf amiibo so they accomplish two things at once.
It's all a bunch of what ifs and maybes, including that the x2 damage modifier wouldn't exist without amiibo.
It's not a massive undertaking, but it doesn't mean it's a "switch" and would be in the game if it weren't for amiibo. It's obviously a case of "we want amiibo functionality in this game using Zelda-related amiibo, any ideas for features?", not "we made this 4x damage setting, how about we only make it available when you use the Ganondorf amiibo?"
I mean, it could be the second one, but come on. Is this really what you think? They've never been big on difficulty options. As I mentioned in my previous post, it's absolutely fair to be disappointed about not having the option without amiibo and think it's shitty by Nintendo. But if any of you are imagining things would be better for you if amiibo didn't exist, then don't, because it wouldn't.
mikefrails
Banned
As long as the benefits are optional then they can never go too far.
It hard to say how big percentage of the current fan base like them. However, if Nintendo is going after new customers with the NX I think it is safe to say that many of them are indifferent or dislike them. So Nintendo need to be careful on how they use them and right now they seem to be floundering.
If they had a clear message there would not be so many discussions. But right now every game implement them differently.
It will.be interesting to see how they implement them in bigger games. I think the Mario Maker way was perfect for bigger games.
So piracy = A-OK but buying a figure that can refill your arrows = terrible consumer practices.
Just don't buy the damn amiibo if you don't like it, I'm sure not buying one for a free potion in-game.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Dude, I don't know. You're really starting to sound like those kids on twitter who are like "MOM GOT ME A WHITE IPAD FOR CHRISTMAS, AND I WANTED BLACK! THIS IS THE WORST AND CHRISTMAS IS RUINED, I'M CRYING I HATE HER SO MUCH
((("Dude, I don't know. You're really starting to sound like those kids on twitter who are like "MOM GOT ME A WHITE IPAD FOR CHRISTMAS, AND I WANTED BLACK! THIS IS THE WORST AND CHRISTMAS IS RUINED, I'M CRYING I HATE HER SO MUCH
It's more like she got you a crummy Android tablet and you had to pay $500 for it.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
What the hell are you even talking about?
The guy I was responding to says he wants the 2x difficulty mode you get for owning the Ganon Amiibo.
I said that no, you get 2x difficulty from Hero Mode, which is included by default in Twilight Princess HD.
He says he wants 2x difficulty without having the mirrored map you get in Hero Mode, which, I guess, is a roundabout thing you can have if you use the Ganon amiibo.
It's kind of a petty complaint. You have your hard mode but apparently it's the wrong kind of hard mode. But I'm willing to bet if the Ganon amiibo didn't exist at all, there wouldn't even be a complaint to have.
You should pay better attention to the conversation before being snarky.
KratosEnergyDrink
Member
The Mario party amiibo content is just a slight changed repetition of the free content. A little extra nothing more. The splatoon extra content, replay single player missions with another weapon, is of the same category. It's nice to have but only a little extra.
You are right that the locked content behind the Shovel amiibo is relevant. But this is a third party amiibo.
Nonetheless I enjoyed the pixel toad search unlocked by the toad amiibo in Captain Toad very much.
It seems developers can get sometimes very creative in their mission to create little extras for amiibo. But I am sure these extras exists only because of amiibo.
Shotgun Kiss
Member
I'm just a few amiibos shy of owning all the Smash Bros. ones released so far, so I don't personally mind when games have features that require them, but I can certainly understand people being upset about it.
I think a lot more people would be OK with amiibo-exclusive content if that content was developed after the game was released. That way people wouldn't feel as if they've simply had something locked away arbitrarily just because they don't own something.
Captain Toad did a good job; they patched in amiibo functionality, which made it more akin to "actual" DLC.
I remember the shitstorm when Street Fighter X Tekken released and it became known that there were several characters on the disc but locked away as DLC. The DLC was actually just an unlock code, and the download was a few kilobytes. People were pissed off that this content had been developed pre-launch, but they were expected to pay extra for it. Amiibos are very similar.
In my opinion, amiibos should either unlock something that is possible to acquire through normal gameplay means, or unlock extra content only if said content was developed post-launch.
I think a lot more people would be OK with amiibo-exclusive content if that content was developed after the game was released. That way people wouldn't feel as if they've simply had something locked away arbitrarily just because they don't own something.
Captain Toad did a good job; they patched in amiibo functionality, which made it more akin to "actual" DLC.
I remember the shitstorm when Street Fighter X Tekken released and it became known that there were several characters on the disc but locked away as DLC. The DLC was actually just an unlock code, and the download was a few kilobytes. People were pissed off that this content had been developed pre-launch, but they were expected to pay extra for it. Amiibos are very similar.
In my opinion, amiibos should either unlock something that is possible to acquire through normal gameplay means, or unlock extra content only if said content was developed post-launch.
trugs26
Member
It's a remake of the original game.
Then amiibo do stuff.
I'm okay with it.
The way I think about it is this: if the amiibo didn't exist, would they have done those things anyway? My answer to those things is no. Definitely 100% no to the Ganondorf thing given that they hero mode anyway. And I highly doubt they'd do the trials thing given that they didn't do anything like that for Wind Waker HD, and it looks like a very simple mode that was thrown together for the amiibo.
So every time you question amiibo locking content, think to yourself, "would this content exist at all if amiibo didn't exist? Or if it didn't exist, would nintendo have put more effort into other significant aspects of the game?". If not, then I really don't see an issue with it.
Then amiibo do stuff.
I'm okay with it.
The way I think about it is this: if the amiibo didn't exist, would they have done those things anyway? My answer to those things is no. Definitely 100% no to the Ganondorf thing given that they hero mode anyway. And I highly doubt they'd do the trials thing given that they didn't do anything like that for Wind Waker HD, and it looks like a very simple mode that was thrown together for the amiibo.
So every time you question amiibo locking content, think to yourself, "would this content exist at all if amiibo didn't exist? Or if it didn't exist, would nintendo have put more effort into other significant aspects of the game?". If not, then I really don't see an issue with it.
lightchris
Member
Exactly.
Additionally, it should be possible to obtain the extra content without having to buy a toy figure. Either as normal DLC, or at least as a "virtual amiibo" as someone already suggested in this thread.
With those two things sorted out people would have very little reason to complain (yes, someone will always complain, but the number of complaints would be reduced to a tiny fraction).
In the end it boils down to if you're okay with on-disc "DLC" (for which the same arguments apply). If you're okay with that, you probably won't have a problem with amiibos in that regard. If you're not, you should have a problem.
Not really, this amiibo stuff is so minuscule and inconsequential it's more like a microtranscation than on-disc DLC. Want to pay $1 to refill your hearts is much closer to this than pay $X to unlock a short campaign or story.
The difference is that you pay $12 for a plastic toy, and get use that as a microtranscation in a bunch of other games. I guess that appeals to some people, not to me, but it's not worth kicking up a fuss about.
sensui-tomo
Member
I see people calling the ganondorf thing a mode, you do know its a status ailment that lasts until you die or you end your game session, then have to put the amiibo on the gamepad again right? Just odd seeing people call it a mode when its just an status ailment.
I'm saying TPHD is a $20 game packaged as a $60 game. Overpriced.
DLC doesn't have "stock" and physical presence, whereas Amiibo do.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Well, I mean, welcome to Nintendo games since... well, at least the last fifteen years.
I remember paying $30 for a used copy of Super Smash Bros. Melee in 2005. It was still full price brand new, and it was four years old at that point. And Nintendo just announced a "Nintendo Selects" line where they're graciously going to discount Ocarina of Time 3D, a 3DS launch title, by five whole dollars.
At one point, it was added to Player's Choice (I miss those), but it was in its own tier. Normal Player's Choice was $20, but SSBM was PC at $30. Nintendo knew what was up.
Tingle Tuner in Wind Waker GCN >>>> amiibo usage in Zelda TPHD
You could drop bombs on enemies completely separate from the main player, point out cool features (or annoy the main player to death), and it was how to find the hidden Tingle statues (that were still in Wind Waker HD, but you had to just know where they were now). None of the amiibo in TPHD do anything as cool as Tingle Tuner in WW GCN, in my opinion.
Acerac
Banned
Nintendo doesn't really have direct control of the price of their used games... though you'll be happy to know it'd be more expensive to get a copy of Melee if you were to buy it now.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Yeah, but "Used" prices are based on how much it costs new, usually. Nintendo took a very, VERY long time to discount Melee, and when it finally did it wasn't by very much.
By comparison, I picked up Rogue Squadron 2 a week earlier for $5.
Nintendo is not a company kind to those on a strict budget. Which is basically the story of my life.
Portugeezer
Member
There should be a DLC option to unlock it. I agree, the need to buy figurines for some things is annoying.