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[hodgy100]

Why would a company choose to hire (for the same hourly wage) a disabled person (lets say a wheelchair bound person) vs an able-bodied person? There's absolutely no advantage, and they never would. And please don't give me your spiel about "Well that would be a shitty company and I'd never shop there, blahblahblah", because companies are inherently shitty, that's why were in the situation now. It makes much more sense to allow a company to pay a fair working wage, based on what an employee does, and let a state determine wha extra disability benefits someone should get.

One of my ex work colleagues was wheelchair bound and it was not a hindrance to his work and he was in fact on a higher wave than me due to his ability and experience. So fuck off with that attitude you act like disabled people can't make a Contribution to society.

 

[Mouse Cop]

If a business can only generate sufficient profit through $8ph labour then the argument is that it is an inefficient use of capital and labour.

So your suggestion is what exactly? Have the business close down? So instead of having a small business that generates enough profit to pay employees $8/hr while paying taxes, you would have all of them go unemployed? So that that the person who was about to make $8/hr is now not making any money, and will have to remain unemployed and hope to find another job? In this case, where minimum wage is increased, most fast food and big corporation will try to cut their labor. You're already seeing at some places with self-serve kiosks, eliminating the need of a cashier. Which means that a lot of these companies will no longer offer entry-level positions, which are important for people who have never had a job before and need to gain some kind of experience..for future jobs. So by your suggestion, you've put people out of a job, and the person they were about to hire an entry level position won't even get a paying job now because most other companies will cut costs.

So now, we can just have everyone be unemployed and can stack all this extra capital and labour we saved and buy big business a yacht or something, it's a great plan.

 

[ZackieChan]

So your suggestion is what exactly? Have the business close down? So instead of having a small business that generates enough profit to pay employees $8/hr while paying taxes, you would have all of them go unemployed? So that that the person who was about to make $8/hr is now not making any money, and will have to remain unemployed and hope to find another job? In this case, where minimum wage is increased, most fast food and big corporation will try to cut their labor. You're already seeing at some places with self-serve kiosks, eliminating the need of a cashier. Which means that a lot of these companies will no longer offer entry-level positions, which are important for people who have never had a job before and need to gain some kind of experience..for future jobs. So by your suggestion, you've put people out of a job, and the person they were about to hire an entry level position won't even get a paying job now because most other companies will cut costs.

So now, we can just have everyone be unemployed and can stack all this extra capital and labour we saved and buy big business a yacht or something, it's a great plan.

The solution, of course, is "come up with a better business!"

Which is as ridiculous to say as "get a better job!" But because it's the companies, which as another poster said are "inherently shitty" (which is nonsense), we should stick it to them and not expect the same in return.

 

[SMattera]

Typically, when people argue for a higher minimum wage, they say that it won't actually cause many people to lose their jobs at all. And that, in fact, more people would be better off because these wage-workers have more money to spend.

Arguing that businesses that can't afford to pay their workers $X amount of dollars should just shut down is, frankly, a strange line of reasoning I hadn't yet encountered. It's also incredibly heartless. Get rid of their job -- who cares? Wow.

 

[HarryHengst]

How exactly is a small business a drain on society? Because I can't afford to pay employees $100k in salary? You know businesses pay taxes right? We pay for unemployment, payroll, federal, and pretty much almost every tax there is. We get taxed at a higher rate as well, so no, even if we can't afford to pay an employee x amount of money, we still pay the government a shit ton in taxes so that they can hand out food stamps.

I know this is going to sound selfish, but I didn't start a small business to pay other people a ton of money, I started it with the possibility that I can eventually make a shit ton of money. If people can make money while I'm making money, then that's great. But the employees don't have anything riding on the line in any small business. They didn't dish out their savings, they don't work countless hours, or make any of the sacrifices necessary. The employee volunteers to work for the company. I didn't force my employee to take the position when I offered the pay. And while many adults work at minimum wage, you're failing to realize that a lot of teenagers and students also need jobs to help pay for little bills here and there. Not everyone has a family to support that needs a job.

You would be a drain if your employees cant survive even when working fulltime for you. Saying "well i pay taxes so if my employees need food stamps, thats fine" is a terrible attitude.

And please, stop the whole ''poor me, i work really hard'', because everyone works really hard. Some people are even forced to work 2 jobs because small (and large) businesses are too cheap to pay a decent wage.

And yes, employees have things riding on your business, if you fail they are out of a job and god knows how long it can take to find a new one these days.

Typically, when people argue for a higher minimum wage, they say that it won't actually cause many people to lose their jobs at all. And that, in fact, more people would be better off because these wage-workers have more money to spend.

Arguing that businesses that can't afford to pay their workers $X amount of dollars should just shut down is, frankly, a strange line of reasoning I hadn't yet encountered. It's also incredibly heartless. Get rid of their job -- who cares? Wow.

Well if we lower the minimum wage to say 1 dollar a day more people would have jobs! So great idea, right?

 

[milanbaros]

So your suggestion is what exactly? Have the business close down? So instead of having a small business that generates enough profit to pay employees $8/hr while paying taxes, you would have all of them go unemployed? So that that the person who was about to make $8/hr is now not making any money, and will have to remain unemployed and hope to find another job? In this case, where minimum wage is increased, most fast food and big corporation will try to cut their labor. You're already seeing at some places with self-serve kiosks, eliminating the need of a cashier. Which means that a lot of these companies will no longer offer entry-level positions, which are important for people who have never had a job before and need to gain some kind of experience..for future jobs. So by your suggestion, you've put people out of a job, and the person they were about to hire an entry level position won't even get a paying job now because most other companies will cut costs.

So now, we can just have everyone be unemployed and can stack all this extra capital and labour we saved and buy big business a yacht or something, it's a great plan.

You're arguing against any minimum wage with this line of thinking.

Instead of thinking about it on a case by case basis I.e. My business will not hire this person therefore extrapolated across the whole economy, it will have a net negative effect., think about the overall effect.

The higher minimum wage will increase the total income from labour, especially on low income jobs. This will boost the economy and increase aggregate demand for goods and services.

There isn't any strong evidence that increasing minimum wage results in significantly greater unemployment, so the net effect is positive.

 

[unholyrevenger72]

So your suggestion is what exactly? Have the business close down?

That, raise prices, or down size.

So instead of having a small business that generates enough profit to pay employees $8/hr while paying taxes, you would have all of them go unemployed? So that that the person who was about to make $8/hr is now not making any money, and will have to remain unemployed and hope to find another job? In this case, where minimum wage is increased, most fast food and big corporation will try to cut their labor. You're already seeing at some places with self-serve kiosks, eliminating the need of a cashier. Which means that a lot of these companies will no longer offer entry-level positions, which are important for people who have never had a job before and need to gain some kind of experience..for future jobs. So by your suggestion, you've put people out of a job, and the person they were about to hire an entry level position won't even get a paying job now because most other companies will cut costs.

So now, we can just have everyone be unemployed and can stack all this extra capital and labour we saved and buy big business a yacht or something, it's a great plan.

Just so you know the "Great Plan" is happening whether or not Minimum wage goes up or down. People are expensive to maintain and those kiosks are looking more appealing with each passing moment to big business.

The sooner the Labor Revolution begins, done by pushing for higher minimum wage, the better off we'll be.

 

[Mouse Cop]

You're putting capital to use that is only productive enough when using very cheap labour. That isn't considered economically optimal.

Except, I'm not, I'm giving someone a job when they didn't have one. They are then making money that they can drop back into the economy, so the roughly $300.00/week they make, can now be used to give back into the economy. By creating this entry level position and giving myself the relief, I can get more business. By getting more business, my business makes more money, if my business makes more money I can do one of two things. I can keep all this money for myself to buy my super awesome yacht (which is what every evil business owner has) or I can invest this money back to my business. Now all of a sudden, my receptionist gets a raise! Maybe she even gets a promotion! I hire a NEW receptionist and my former receptionist is now promoted to Mouse Cop's official NeoGaf poster! She is moving up and accruing more skills in the world! She can even, after getting some experience, move to another company and make even more money!

Instead, by your suggestion, none of this happens. Nothing grows, in fact, we all just stay at home and do nothing. We can just go get another job, because we don't already have a thread dedicated to how much of a pain in the ass it is to get one of those already! Getting jobs are easy! Especially now that they're paying you $15.00 an hour! I'm sure it'll be great for that kid getting out of high school with a dream of maybe getting a PS4Neo or XboxScorpio! If he's a good boy, I'm sure Santa will bring him one, because he's sure as hell not getting a job.

 

[milanbaros]

Except, I'm not, I'm giving someone a job when they didn't have one. They are then making money that they can drop back into the economy, so the roughly $300.00/week they make, can now be used to give back into the economy. By creating this entry level position and giving myself the relief, I can get more business. By getting more business, my business makes more money, if my business makes more money I can do one of two things. I can keep all this money for myself to buy my super awesome yacht (which is what every evil business owner has) or I can invest this money back to my business. Now all of a sudden, my receptionist gets a raise! Maybe she even gets a promotion! I hire a NEW receptionist and my former receptionist is now promoted to Mouse Cop's official NeoGaf poster! She is moving up and accruing more skills in the world! She can even, after getting some experience, move to another company and make even more money!

Instead, by your suggestion, none of this happens. Nothing grows, in fact, we all just stay at home and do nothing. We can just go get another job, because we don't already have a thread dedicated to how much of a pain in the ass it is to get one of those already! Getting jobs are easy! Especially now that they're paying you $15.00 an hour! I'm sure it'll be great for that kid getting out of high school with a dream of maybe getting a PS4Neo or XboxScorpio! If he's a good boy, I'm sure Santa will bring him one, because he's sure as hell not getting a job.

Again, you're not looking at the wider economic implications. A proportion of people currently employed would lose their job. However, the vast majority of evidence suggest a much greater proportion won't. The total economic benefit to these people will be greater than the loss to the people who lost their job. The increase in AD within the economy will increase demand for employees which evidence suggests will offset most of the lost jobs from the higher minimum wage.

This is true for increasing the minimum wage from $5 to $8 and $8 to $11.

 

[Mouse Cop]

You would be a drain if your employees cant survive even when working fulltime for you. Saying "well i pay taxes so if my employees need food stamps, thats fine" is a terrible attitude.

And please, stop the whole ''poor me, i work really hard'', because everyone works really hard. Some people are even forced to work 2 jobs because small (and large) businesses are too cheap to pay a decent wage.

And yes, employees have things riding on your business, if you fail they are out of a job and god knows how long it can take to find a new one these days.



Well if we lower the minimum wage to say 1 dollar a day more people would have jobs! So great idea, right?

With what you're proposing, they wouldn't have a job anyway. I guess this is hard to explain as most people here don't own their own companies. I guess we can raise this wage and see what happens, I'm sure there will be no consequences of this, because the last time they doubled the wage in like 1950 everything turned out fine. I will continue on exploiting my poor employee until this happens, while I feed my pet tiger and ride my chopper to Vegas on the weekends to use all this money I'm saving while it lasts.

Seriously though, I'm all for people making more money. I'm ok with raising the minimum wage, but argument was more geared towards doubling it which is what it would be right now. If we raised it to $10/hr or so, I think that's great. If it goes more than that, then I will sell my pet tiger and bite the bullet I guess.

 

[darkace]

yes, currently having any paying job is better than no job, but looking at things long term, i'm willing to bet that just getting rid of all the shitty low paying jobs and suffering through the growing pains of high unemployment will speed up the process in achieving the real solution: guaranteed basic income and/or a general 20 hour work week with higher wages all around.

One of these days I'm going to figure out how UBI is literally the solution to all problems.

Every single one of these discussions eventually sees UBI put forward as the solution to everything.

It's a marginally better solution to welfare, and it's not even the best solution. It's hardly a silver bullet to all problems, or even the ones you listed above.

So, pay each worker what they generate, make business profit neutral.

This is what is currently done for the most part. Perfect competition would see the elimination of non-accounting profit and workers wages perfectly equal their product.

 

[Foffy]

There should be no low wage jobs for people in high school then? Just either wages to support a family or nothing?

Some people are just so eager for things to change that things which are as they should be are "parasitic".

The problem with certain jobs and their unsustainability is it creates a kind of dualism, between what's "real, worthy" jobs to do that, and what apparently isn't. This kind of boundary creation only leads to further issue as many paint this solely to jobs making just the minimum wage while they choose to ignore how crippled social mobility is, especially in America.

One can very easily be shackled at the bottom and no amount of will, sincerity, or determination will ever get them out of it. Most people are typically stuck where they start, in many facets. Saying things are as they should be is simply accepting mediocrity and social suffering, and probably being content with it expanding, too. The answers to these problems, from this lens of perception, are nothing more than miasmic.

 

[UFO]

One of my ex work colleagues was wheelchair bound and it was not a hindrance to his work and he was in fact on a higher wave than me due to his ability and experience. So fuck off with that attitude you act like disabled people can't make a Contribution to society.

Good for your friend, I never said disabled people could not make a contribution to society. He makes a higher wage because of his skill and experience, exactly my point. What I said is that people with lower skills/experience and/or disabilities would have have harder time finding jobs with an increased wage threshold.

 

[hollams]

It's not taxes, it's zoning regulation to keep lower classes out deliberately- http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=204831153#post204831153

Food is cheap nowadays.

Food is cheap? Milk is almost $5 a gallon. Hamburger meat has doubled in price. Food is way higher now. Just goto Wendy's and it's $8 for a hamburger fries and a drink that is quite high.

 

[NervousXtian]

Your entire premise is based upon businesses being honest about how much a job is worth per hour. Which is a pretty flimsy argument to make. If there was no law in place to pay people a minimum wage in the first place, many places would pay people significantly lower than they already do and just claim that that is how much their labor is worth per hour.

Of course businesses are going to say someone's work is only worth $10 an hour compared to $15. They're going to say that literally every time, because they're always going to claim the lower amount is what the job is worth so they could get away with paying it. If they claimed that a job was worth $15 per hour and they were only paying $10, everyone would just be questioning them as to why people aren't getting paid $15 an hour. Then they would be caught in a catch-22 and either change their wages or admit that they're paying people less because they can, and because they want to keep as much of the profit as they can from their company.

Have you ever ran a business, or been in a position to actually view the P&L of a business and have to make decisions based on the numbers and future earnings of a business?

Because the problem isn't raising the min wage... raising it in general isn't bad. Raising it quickly though doesn't give a lot of companies times to adjust, not when the rate goes up so quickly like it is here in Oregon and now California. We pay over min wage as is now, just not as much as we used too. We hire generally unskilled workers and train a skill, it takes time and money to train them to earn money for us. Most newly highers are a net-loss on the business as the produce less than they generate. This wasn't always the case, but it is now at the current min wage and our current start rate. After a month or so we can usually get them to a break even productivity level, and if they stick around for a year or more than we can get them to a level they can generally make 100 to 200% of their pay.

Remember though, that's gross rev, not net. We still have to pay taxes, rent, supplies, uniforms, licenses, equipment, vehicles, etc... all that comes off the top.

At the current rate of increase we won't be making profit in a few years unless we drastically change what we charge, which is tough.. a lot of it is stuck in contracts, there's competition willing to eat some of it at a loss, there's also a lot of cost increases come from other sides with our customers, who also will deal with the same 50% labor jump over 5 years for their lowest tier workers.

Needless to say, it's going to be eye opening and challenging... and I employee directly 80+ employees.

 

[DOWN]

Food is cheap? Milk is almost $5 a gallon. Hamburger meat has doubled in price. Food is way higher now. Just goto Wendy's and it's $8 for a hamburger fries and a drink that is quite high.

Where do you live? It doesn't cost that in Orlando

 

[Slo]

With what you're proposing, they wouldn't have a job anyway. I guess this is hard to explain as most people here don't own their own companies. I guess we can raise this wage and see what happens, I'm sure there will be no consequences of this, because the last time they doubled the wage in like 1950 everything turned out fine. I will continue on exploiting my poor employee until this happens, while I feed my pet tiger and ride my chopper to Vegas on the weekends to use all this money I'm saving while it lasts.

Seriously though, I'm all for people making more money. I'm ok with raising the minimum wage, but argument was more geared towards doubling it which is what it would be right now. If we raised it to $10/hr or so, I think that's great. If it goes more than that, then I will sell my pet tiger and bite the bullet I guess.

How is a person supposed to afford their own pet tiger if you're only paying them $10/hour to organize magazines?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

How is a person supposed to afford their own pet tiger if you're only paying them $10/hour to organize magazines?

Is this guy always like this?

 

[kirblar]

Food is cheap? Milk is almost $5 a gallon. Hamburger meat has doubled in price. Food is way higher now. Just goto Wendy's and it's $8 for a hamburger fries and a drink that is quite high.

I live in DC (high cost of living area) - Milk is about $3 a gallon here. Wendys is priced much higher than its competitors- you can get 2 mcdoubles for $2 or 2 double cheeseburgers for $3 at BK.

 

[Tawpgun]

I thought 15 is the reason because if you account for inflation that is what the minimum wage should be based on some other prosperous time in us history.

 

[mrhyderager]

I used to be against it. But then, all at once, I had people to support and was making $15. Turns out, even $15 isn't much.

I know, I know, boo hoo me. But it goes quick. I can't imagine how people do it on $7.25.

 

[SummitAve]

I always thought the $15 amount was just where the negotiation was to start and the eventual compromise will be somewhere between $10 and $15.

 

[Mouse Cop]

How is a person supposed to afford their own pet tiger if you're only paying them $10/hour to organize magazines?

Step 1. Open your own business (this is easy because of step 2)
Step 2. Hire an employee and pay them $10.00 (exploit their ability to pick up phones/stack my checks all at a low cost!)
Step 3. ???
Step 4. Tiger

 

[Nipo]

I live in DC (high cost of living area) - Milk is about $3 a gallon here. Wendys is priced much higher than its competitors- you can get 2 mcdoubles for $2 or 2 double cheeseburgers for $3 at BK.

Where are you getting your $3 milk? It is $6 a gallon at the Safeway by my house and slightly higher at the HT

 

[Nipo]

With what you're proposing, they wouldn't have a job anyway. I guess this is hard to explain as most people here don't own their own companies. I guess we can raise this wage and see what happens, I'm sure there will be no consequences of this, because the last time they doubled the wage in like 1950 everything turned out fine. I will continue on exploiting my poor employee until this happens, while I feed my pet tiger and ride my chopper to Vegas on the weekends to use all this money I'm saving while it lasts.

Seriously though, I'm all for people making more money. I'm ok with raising the minimum wage, but argument was more geared towards doubling it which is what it would be right now. If we raised it to $10/hr or so, I think that's great. If it goes more than that, then I will sell my pet tiger and bite the bullet I guess.

Are you doing considerable international business (which admittedly would be hard to adjust for the increase). Doubling the minimum wage like this would shock the labor market like we haven't seen in a very long time. The closest even i can think of is when energy prices tripled in a few years and all companies in industries had to raise prices or impose a "fuel surcharge" .

Approximately what % of your variable costs are labor? Do you think it is significantly higher than your competitors? You'd all have to absorb he shock and adjust prices accordingly.

In your opinion would a 10-20% VAT with the funds being given directly to social welfare programs be less of a burden for your business?

 

[Mouse Cop]

Are you doing considerable international business (which admittedly would be hard to adjust for the increase). Doubling the minimum wage like this would shock the labor market like we haven't seen in a very long time. The closest even i can think of is when energy prices tripled in a few years and all companies in industries had to raise prices or impose a "fuel surcharge" .

Approximately what % of your variable costs are labor? Do you think it is significantly higher than your competitors? You'd all have to absorb he shock and adjust prices accordingly.

In your opinion would a 10-20% VAT with the funds being given directly to social welfare programs be less of a burden for your business?

Labor costs pretty make up most of my overhead right now, as I didn't need to take out a loan to start my company. My labor costs are probably lower than my competitors, because my company is a lot smaller than my competitors, I basically sell a more personal and attentive service over going with a bigger company. I don't think the minimum wage hike would make my business flounder, my business is quite profitable, but I would like to expand my business (move to bigger location, hire more workers in skill positions, market, etc). I think the hike would SLOW this process down, I may lose some business as a result as well because I can't actively go out and get more business (networking is what makes me money).

My argument is more for what would happen to other small business that rely on their entry level positions and minimum wage for labor. I'm a member of a SBA and some companies would take a big hit if it were to pass. I think more issues would pop up as a result like, if the receptionist gets paid $15.00/hr and you were paying idk, a processor of some sort $17.00, that processor will feel devalued. I know the cries will be "Oh, those people only care about themselves! That's selfish!" and while that's absolutely right, that will still undoubtedly be the case IMO. I have a couple of buddies with degrees that get paid a salary that roughly comes out to $16.00/hr and these people are editors at marketing/writing firms. If the person who answers the phone for them gets paid a dollar less, what till they expect when they have to pay loans and have been with the company longer?

I'm not going to lie though, I'm not an expert at this. I'm still fairly new at owning a business as well (mine has been open approx. 2 years), so I won't claim to know all the answers. Just giving a different view in the debate.

 

[kirblar]

Where are you getting your $3 milk? It is $6 a gallon at the Safeway by my house and slightly higher at the HT

....Harris Teeter in VA? It's like 3.19 there.

Where in the region are you?

 

[UFO]

This is turning into a "how much does milk cost near you" thread. I can sense the Modbots circling above.

 

[HarryHengst]

Labor costs pretty make up most of my overhead right now, as I didn't need to take out a loan to start my company. My labor costs are probably lower than my competitors, because my company is a lot smaller than my competitors, I basically sell a more personal and attentive service over going with a bigger company. I don't think the minimum wage hike would make my business flounder, my business is quite profitable, but I would like to expand my business (move to bigger location, hire more workers in skill positions, market, etc). I think the hike would SLOW this process down, I may lose some business as a result as well because I can't actively go out and get more business (networking is what makes me money).

My argument is more for what would happen to other small business that rely on their entry level positions and minimum wage for labor. I'm a member of a SBA and some companies would take a big hit if it were to pass. I think more issues would pop up as a result like, if the receptionist gets paid $15.00/hr and you were paying idk, a processor of some sort $17.00, that processor will feel devalued. I know the cries will be "Oh, those people only care about themselves! That's selfish!" and while that's absolutely right, that will still undoubtedly be the case IMO. I have a couple of buddies with degrees that get paid a salary that roughly comes out to $16.00/hr and these people are editors at marketing/writing firms. If the person who answers the phone for them gets paid a dollar less, what till they expect when they have to pay loans and have been with the company longer?

I'm not going to lie though, I'm not an expert at this. I'm still fairly new at owning a business as well (mine has been open approx. 2 years), so I won't claim to know all the answers. Just giving a different view in the debate.

On the other hand, with more people earning more money those people might buy more goods so more businesses get clients so they earn more. Because poor people spend all their money, and even at $15 an hour they will probably continue to spend about 100% of it. so all that extra salary goes right back into the economy.

And not wanting to give people a liveable wage because the people who make more than $15 dollar right now might feel devalued is kind of a shitty reason not to do it, isnt it?

 

[ZackieChan]

On the other hand, with more people earning more money those people might buy more goods so more businesses get clients so they earn more. Because poor people spend all their money, and even at $15 an hour they will probably continue to spend about 100% of it. so all that extra salary goes right back into the economy.

And not wanting to give people a liveable wage because the people who make more than $15 dollar right now might feel devalued is kind of a shitty reason not to do it, isnt it?

The problem with this is that the increased wages don't necessarily (and probably don't) go back directly into the businesses that are then paying more wages. Someone who is paying an employee minimum wage at their office job doesn't benefit when that employee has more money to go shop at Wal-Mart or go to McDonalds. While it may work this way in aggregate, there's no 1:1 return on investment, which will lead to the downfall of many of those businesses that are supposed to be paying those higher wages.