Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
disagreed you can use bladestorm as a self cleanse and as a finisher when tanks try to peel for their backline. Trying to get full duration value from it is a fool's errand.
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Heroes of the Storm |OT3| Chromiehounds
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I don't need to make Bladestorm happen, it's the default already.
Nothing in Samuro's kit is really good at teamfighting I don't think an Ult that isn't VP tier CC can fix that. Nor that it'd be desirable for Samuro to sneak into a fight and bladestorm everyone to death.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Different argument, Alpha Centauri is right with the switch in masters between the ults but that is specifically masters only, diamond already puts bladestorm far ahead.
So yeah IM is better at the highest level, doesn't change that Bladestorm is the default for the vast majority of players.
It's also not like masters player with Samuro and IM are winning more than Samuro across all levels of play.
But w/o Unstoppable it's a melee strafe w/o vault, hard to cleanse because you want to do it on squishies and easily disrupted.
I gotta (OMG is this really happening?!) agree with Familie. You guys are under rating Bladestorm and overrating Illusion Master (but really both suck).
Every time I face one of these sick Samuro fucks he's either using it to destroy the backline or do some damage and then escape with the unstoppable and come back to finish. Illusion Master just isn't what it once was IMO. I'd rather face Bladestorm for sure just because Illusion Master is so annoying for trying to kill the dude, but as someone earlier said it's not like it makes him any good at team fighting either. It just makes him a fly or a gnat you can't swat reliably.
Not so hot take: he's another hero they should delete. Serves no purpose but to annoy the shit out of everyone. He's not S tier annoying but a solid A tier for sure.
Every time I face one of these sick Samuro fucks he's either using it to destroy the backline or do some damage and then escape with the unstoppable and come back to finish. Illusion Master just isn't what it once was IMO. I'd rather face Bladestorm for sure just because Illusion Master is so annoying for trying to kill the dude, but as someone earlier said it's not like it makes him any good at team fighting either. It just makes him a fly or a gnat you can't swat reliably.
Not so hot take: he's another hero they should delete. Serves no purpose but to annoy the shit out of everyone. He's not S tier annoying but a solid A tier for sure.
scoobs
Member
Eh, if the armor is low like Mathael's ult, it would be counterable through burst damage. I think it would be fine. I think if they wanted Bladestorm Samuro to be pickable at higher levels of play the armor would be a necessity. My guess is they don't care if its good at high levels of play, because its clearly good for low levels of play and they've said they aren't concerned if some abilities/heroes aren't ideal in competitive.
I meant if it actually did good dmg and you had an incentive to go in with it that it shouldnt have unstoppable. Itd be a wait out cc situation w/ good reward. This is w/ the armor suggestion too. Unstoppable only needs to be removed if bs can do meaningful dmg
Wait is samuro not magic immune during bs?
Oh he should def be magic immune first before armor and see how that plays out first. Mainly saying that cause of jugg from dota tho
Checked out sonya e for comparison, at lvl 10 w/o beserker on she does ~100 less damage but with healing, talent options, and a much better cd. She is also tanky and has multiple sustain options. W/ beserker it's even better ofc and you can get several whirlwinds in, but it's not really fair to compare 2 skills to one. She's also way better at killing squishies and is dominant in lane.
Checked out sonya e for comparison, at lvl 10 w/o beserker on she does ~100 less damage but with healing, talent options, and a much better cd. She is also tanky and has multiple sustain options. W/ beserker it's even better ofc and you can get several whirlwinds in, but it's not really fair to compare 2 skills to one. She's also way better at killing squishies and is dominant in lane.
Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree that if you want him to be played at the high level you need to improve the ability. But giving him armour, or even worse making him magic immune, would not be good at would have a bad effect on normal play.
(And DOTA is different to HotS, just cause Juggernaut has magic immune doesn't mean it should translate across. Hots doesn't have damage types, just ability / basic attack, and him going ability damage immune during bladestorm would be ridiculous.
(And DOTA is different to HotS, just cause Juggernaut has magic immune doesn't mean it should translate across. Hots doesn't have damage types, just ability / basic attack, and him going ability damage immune during bladestorm would be ridiculous.
I understand the thinking, but I think the argument is that if you're playing samuro at all you should be playing him for illusion master because it's the only thing he has that makes him worth picking.
Like if you're looking for an assassin to do what bladestorm samuro does then there's like 7 better options, but if you're looking for a hero that can do what illusion master samuro does there's like vikings, rexxar, and maybe abathur to a degree. Illusion master samuro actually fits into that niche nicely because his steath, damage, and illusion value make him unique amongst those few heroes.
Samuro is like rexxar in that they both sit in a grey area between not strong enough at their "role" to take up a slot in a conventional team comp and not strong enough in their "niche" to enable a specific strategy.
They are both better then most give them credit for but that's because (and the reason their stats are so high) they must be dealt with uniquely and they're unfamiliar enough that most people don't recognize how to deal with it. And also, the people who are bad at the hero don't play it... so even if you're trying to deal with them the right way you're up against a one trick who has more experience in the match up then you.
That doesn't make them good heroes, that just pads their stats.
Vikings is a good hero because it enables a specific strategy that puts the burden of execution on the enemy team, and even that's still a cheesy trick a lot of the times. A bad vikings is just as good as a good samuro, and a good vikings is 100x better.
Samuro is always a cheesy trick, but he's easier to play and doesn't require the rest of your team to be on board.... but the burden of execution is still on samuro, and at that point if you were good at a good hero instead of good at samuro you'd get better results.
tldr: if you want to kill the backline there's better heroes, if you want to play a micro intesnive unique hero the juice is not worth the squeeze.
Oh yeah it was just a thought since i feel like magic immune complements the spell well. But jugg cant go invis after without investment so yeah it isnt the same situation. I honestly do feel like when samuro gets shredded during bs that it's pretty much just auto attacks, but yeh i thought he was mag immune the whole time i prob missed stray spells hitting him and stuff
scoobs
Member
Damn, moments like this I wish gaf had upvotes. Really well said.
Been getting in some Greymane games now that the new skin is out (and is AMAZING) and BOY is this fucking hero strong. I mean its kind of silly. If anyone gets to <30% hp Greymane instantly kills them with E > AA > Q.
The conversation w/ high wr bad kit heroes usually comes down to semantics...obviously picking these heroes will increase your chance of winning (well when picked smartly) but a lot of ppl will end up thinking the hero itself is strong rather than allowing that ppl are kinda trash at the game
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I realised pretty late just how terrible seasoned marksman is on artanis and that even when block is not getting you value, amateur opponent will get you more value because it lets you jungle much more effectively.
I barely ever completed Seasoned Marksman in over 20 games with the hero and I had to stay in lane too much to do so.
I barely ever completed Seasoned Marksman in over 20 games with the hero and I had to stay in lane too much to do so.
scoobs
Member
Ye, amateur opponent is so good on any map w/ a boss or objective that pushes. I used to go season marksman too, but found out over time that AO is just the better talent 95% of the time.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
The biggest revelation was that AO works on structures.
scoobs
Member
and Probius/Gazlowe bullshit!
I would like to sign your petition please.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
medivh is an issue on pro level almost exclusively.
I'll die on the hill chromie stands on, I mean I won't because no one will reach us through her time traps.
I'll die on the hill chromie stands on, I mean I won't because no one will reach us through her time traps.
Orochinagis
Member
I hope sondius get a rework on Blizzcon or something since he is the main keyart this year.
Or at least give him a permanent photon cannon
Or at least give him a permanent photon cannon
Let's see:
- Murky: Don't you dare take Murky away from me!
I know he's annoying as fuck to deal with but I'm a dirty Murky player
- Nova: I actually think she's okay, she doesn't have an escape so you can actually punish her for mistakes
- Valeera: Yup
- Cho'Gall: Absolutely
- Gazlowe: Hell yes
- Sgt. Hammer: Agreed
- Probius: Eh, take it or leave it but I certainly wouldn't miss him
- TLV: For sure, either pure cheese or a terrible burden for your team
- Fucking Chromie: Getting hit by shit from off screen is never fun, her rework didn't take that away so sure
- Medivh: Bambam was ranting about Medivh recently and I can definitely see why
Heroes I think should be removed:
Murky: Because his play-style is cancer. It's trolling in hero form, and you can't ever make it work without it being intrinsically unfun for the enemy team. Neat experiment, but didn't work and needs to go.
Medivh: Because all he does is stop interesting things happening. He needs a fundamental rework so that he isn't drafted with the sole purpose of "nothing you do matters, be bored to death". Especially at the pro level, his presence in games is just utter tedium. The pro's loathe him as well, so hopefully they look again at what they wanted him to do. He needs to lose the protect shield completely, and his teleports need to get the Dota blink dagger treatment - make them useful as engage tools, not the ultimate in disengage.
Everything else, as horrible as it can be, can be managed somehow. I do think they need to seriously look at mobility though, and unless they plan on reworking a lot of older heroes, need to bite the bullet and just tone this shit down across a lot of this years heroes. Genji's E shouldn't work across terrain, and his trait shouldn't work when he's recently been damaged. D'Va shouldn't have the move when firing ability like she does. Junkrat should lose the level 13 talent.
Murky: Because his play-style is cancer. It's trolling in hero form, and you can't ever make it work without it being intrinsically unfun for the enemy team. Neat experiment, but didn't work and needs to go.
Medivh: Because all he does is stop interesting things happening. He needs a fundamental rework so that he isn't drafted with the sole purpose of "nothing you do matters, be bored to death". Especially at the pro level, his presence in games is just utter tedium. The pro's loathe him as well, so hopefully they look again at what they wanted him to do. He needs to lose the protect shield completely, and his teleports need to get the Dota blink dagger treatment - make them useful as engage tools, not the ultimate in disengage.
Everything else, as horrible as it can be, can be managed somehow. I do think they need to seriously look at mobility though, and unless they plan on reworking a lot of older heroes, need to bite the bullet and just tone this shit down across a lot of this years heroes. Genji's E shouldn't work across terrain, and his trait shouldn't work when he's recently been damaged. D'Va shouldn't have the move when firing ability like she does. Junkrat should lose the level 13 talent.
I feel like medivh's kit should have been split amongst a bunch of characters but he's fun as hell, cool shit happens when he's in, he gets a pass even tho he will likely bite the game in the ass at some point
I dont really want them to take away his build but i dont think the healing at 16 needs to exist
I dont really want them to take away his build but i dont think the healing at 16 needs to exist
Cool shit doesn't happen. The opposite of cool shit happens. No-one ever dies.
The only time I can think of Medivh doing actual cool shit was Dig comboed him with Ragnaros, that was brilliant. But the rest of the time nothing cool happens - because no-one ever dies. It's just *dull* to watch a game with him in at the pro level.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
that just means you're getting old
Orochinagis
Member
On my experience, Its horrible to play as Medivh if your team doesnt know what Medivh does since you need your team to play as Medivh alonside with their own heroes instead of having control your Medivh which feels weird.
Its not like Abathur when you put your simbiote and have control on your abilities plus mines and larvas , its boring and you have to wait for the high tier talents to be automonous of your team, like you are a off support
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Mal is right that Medivh went from exciting in competitive to being real boring. He offers too much mobility, protection and CC, FFS leyline still doesn't disable cap points like VP does, while being too difficult to punish.
Medivh in regular ass Hots is doesn't deserve to be on any list but a "do not pick" list
Medivh in regular ass Hots is doesn't deserve to be on any list but a "do not pick" list
Well im the medivh in this situation lol
Medivh can totally do well solo q
Yeah you cant bring out his potential usually but even just straight up shielding someone, porting yourself into the middle of the team, gettin q stacks, all of that stuff is fun to me