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[petran79]

With all that being said, one could argue that being used to keyboard input for games your whole life (just like being used to controllers) eliminates the discomfort of being overwhelmed by additional surrounding inputs because your hand and fingers always land on the correct keys (I never think about stuff like WASD) and you press the correct keys without having to think about it. Likewise, one could argue that using a separate finger for each action/direction is much more efficient (while that efficiency makes the experience more enjoyable and comfortable), just like actual typing, playing the piano or other musical instruments is much more natural and efficient than using just your thumbs (or any two fingers) to do it, which might even make one feel like they're handicapped, like having amputated fingers etc, not to mention the need to take your thumb off one action to do another might create a very slight feel of anxiety or irritation, because you feel handicapped by not being able to immediately react to any given situation without potentially eliminating the immediate access to another action.

Taking movement out of the equation for a second, I find using the keyboard is pretty much exactly the same as using an arcade stick + buttons combo. I played a ton of arcade games as a kid, and placing the three fingers of my right hand (index, middle, ring) for something like a Capcom fighting game felt very natural to me and it makes pressing the correct punch/kick a very easy, immediate and efficient action. On the other hand, using WASD instead of an arcade stick could also be argued to be even more efficient, because again, you have a separate finger for each direction (except up/down) and can immediately react and move in the opposite direction, instead of moving the entire arm, hand (or thumb) in an arc, from one end to the other. Again, I'm arguing that efficiency can also bring comfort and an overall good feeling to game inputs.

Now of course, you see professional fighting game players use standard console controllers all the time (but also a lot of arcade sticks) and be at the top of the game, but it also proves that you can be just as comfortable and good at it by using an arcade stick, or even something like Hit Box's stickless arcade controllers which some people seem to prefer and which, if you take into account being used to a keyboard for gaming all your life, feels exactly the same (as in, no confusion or anxiety regarding the other keys on the keyboard).

So I'm just saying that just as you're feeling uncomfortable by having multiple superfluous inputs in the vicinity of your actual main buttons and thinking about more than two fingers for input, you should be able to imagine someone feeling just as uncomfortable by being constrained by just two fingers for input and not having each action (or a small range of actions) assigned to a specific finger, for the aforementioned reasons. So it's not exactly like drawing with an Etch A Sketch, but I can imagine it might feel that way to some people.

There are some obvious ergonomic benefits for using a controller of course, no arguing about that, I'm just saying I find the precision, immediacy and options of the keyboard to overall feel better for me, because I feel I have more control over my actions, ranging from old 2D platformers to FPS/TPS or whatever. I'm kinda clumsy playing Metal Slug on a controller, but I'm very confident and precise when playing with a keyboard.

But then again, I've beaten Super Mario Galaxy in Dolphin with KB+M, plenty of heavy action games like Metal Gear Rising or a couple of DmCs etc. so I'm aware I'm weird that way, and people will undoubtedly cringe at this, but I didn't do that just in spite, or to prove a point to anyone. I play these games on KB+M because it feels so much better to me, like I really have control over my actions and not feeling handicapped by my inputs. That being said, I've also played the Souls series on a controller, partly because the first game did a bad job at KB+M controls, and partly because the game controls really well on a controller anyway, and I have no problem with it.

The WASD control scheme wasnt the dominant one initially.

DOS DOOM and other FPS used to be controlled with arrow keys, even with mouse support.

It was a given that right hand would be for directions, using arrows and left hand for commands in 2d action games. Even the original Resident Evil games used that.

Still play fighters on keyboard that way.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of people playing Metal Slug, and arcade games in general, outside of the arcade have been doing so on emulators on PC, not via the official console ports. Let's not forget that the one console/handheld exclusive Metal Slug was also the last.

There is the official Metal Slug PC collection, containing MS1-6,but without the extras of the console versions. Better than nothing, compated to the mobile ports of Dotemu.

 

[FRS1987]

It depends on the person but I'm sure if you kept at it you'll eventually find what works for you and maybe the default settings aren't for you. I was on the same boat and when I finally picked up Unreal 2k4 It finally clicked with me, which is an odd game to learn M+KB. I eventually shifted from C to crouch to CTRL.

 

[Timedog]

Keyboard is far inferior for movement. Analog stick destroys wasd. I JUST realized I like mouse better for aiming though. Used to hate it, and swore it off. Then I got a very high quality mouse about a year ago, and turned the sensitivity up. After getting used to the sensitivity, I recently bought overwatch on pc after my gf begged me for months. The mouse actually feels great with higher sensitivity and a good mouse.

The experience of gripping a controller with 2 hands is probably better for me in 60-70% of games though, still.

 

[Shai-Tan]

you can't separate keyboard and mouse when considering movement. the mouse is what you use to orient with the keys, hence circle strafting. the main benefit of analog for movement is it can have different rates of movement but it's also slower to respond so not all upside there

 

[dzelly]

Nonsense. I have the Couchmaster and I more than hold my own with M/KB in complete comfort and without the confines of a desk chair.

If interested, you can purchase here:
http://www.steigerdynamics.com/products-couchmaster-features

I bought that same HP tower deal! Have since stripped everything out of that case and into a Cooler Master. Upgraded some odds and ends as well.

 

[Dre_G_Writer]

So I always use a controller, no matter what kind of game I'm playing. This means I can't really get into a bunch of FPS and multiplayer stuff is like usually beyond me, but that's cool. I just stay away from multiplayer except when playing with friends and everything is fine. I tried giving mouse / keyboard a go a couple times but it never clicked with me.

Friend of mine is huge on mouse/keyboard so he tried getting me into it again, because he figures that I'd enjoy myself more even if it was only for single player games. So I gave it a shot and...to be honest, just not feeling it. Like just to be clear: I understand mouse/keyboard is a more accurate input method. I just don't really find it comfortable.

I kinda like playing games kind of lazily sinking into my chair(or couch), and doing that with a keyboard is kind of difficult. Like, I'm sure it's doable, just not really feeling it. Tried just sitting up straight to play as well and it felt like I was forcing myself to play instead of just, well, having fun. I mean I'd like to get used to mouse/keyboard because being able to play some multiplayer games would be rad, and if nothing else stuff like Doom single player is probably more fun with a mouse and keyboard. Just having some issues getting used to it. Also tried just flat out getting the mouse/keyboard to my couch with some thing my friend had, and to be honest I felt like my girlfriend trying to use an analogue stick for the first time. It was just weird.

So yeah, I'm half giving up on this keyboard experiment, but I figured before I do that I might as well ask if any of you guys had a similar experience trying out keyboard for the first time and had any recommendations on how to maybe make it more comfortable.

I have the EXACT experience, I mean to the fucking T.

 

[Woetyler]

I've grown up with consoles so i've used a controller my whole life. Really the only thing that's stopping me from a PC is the transition to KB&M.

 

[BasilZero]

I use controller for action, platformers, fighters, racing and jrpgs

For rts, shooters and puzzles I use mouse and keyboard


Can never play shooters right with a controller. Response time was really bad.

 

[The Greek Freak]

I'm with you op. Besides wow and rts games I've never played a kbm game I wouldn't vastly prefer a controller for.

 

[Elephant]

I'm not a PC gamer and very much favour a controller, but it stands to reason that the more you do something the better you'll get at it. Persevere if it's something you want to do. Maybe the PC guys can recommend some games that are good for this kind of thing, where you aren't punished too much for messing up your input, as I imagine a difficult or competitive game could demotivate you.

I remember when analog sticks were introduced for the first time, The child me hated using them and I couldn't get used to it. But then it just clicked, like anything when you do it for long enough.

 

[gypsygib]

I felt the same way once but now couldn't imagine playing a FPS on controller.

Here's what worked for me:

Get a mouse with at lease two side buttons and map sprint and either melee, crouch, or grenade to them (or whatever buttons you use frequently but are the least comfortable to press, I (used to) hate pressing CNTRL or C, and shift for sprint so I mapped shift. Now it's the only button I map. I got a Logitech G1 gaming on sale for cheap.

Set a lower mouse sensitivity, say 30cm/360 or whatever you're comfortable. Get some cheap FPS games with SP campaigns. I'd recommend EA Access because it's $5 and you can play through a lot of SP campaigns in a month to practice and most modern rigs runs those games very well. Play through the campaign so you don't have to feel frustrated in competitive online while you acclimate to the controls. Easy to give up on kb/m when you getting killed constantly in MP so play campaigns. I guarantee after you pass couple of games you'll be running and gunning like you've played kb/m your whole life. Probably takes no more than 15hrs of practice (2-3 games) before it's second nature.

Also, if you want "train" on mastering kb movement controls you can play the Mirror Edge games on Access too, I prefer it with a kb/m)

Worked for me after I switched from PS4 to PC and now I MUCH prefer kb/m for 90% of games. Learn on SP then go and see how much better you are in MP after the initial awkward phase is over.

EDIT: Doom is probably great game to "train" on too. Lots of movement, jumping, and precise shooting without having to get pawned by actual people. Trust me, just being able to look where you want instantly is a game changing experience. Controller aiming will feel like you wearing neck brace and overdosing on muscle relaxants.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

TI think you'll find that the vast majority of people playing Metal Slug, and arcade games in general, outside of the arcade have been doing so on emulators on PC, not via the official console ports.

We'll never be able to verify that, but as long as we're talking anecdotally, I think you brought up console and arcade emulation not thinking about how that helped created a greater need and want for controllers, by creating such a suboptimal and less enjoyable experience, not unlike playing the same emulators do on cell phones.

ILet's not forget that the one console/handheld exclusive Metal Slug was also the last.

So you think the next one will be PC exclusive, and not have controller support?

 

[Shadow Hog]

Left shift.

"but left shift is sprint"

No.

This is the correct Crouch button for my tastes, that's for sure. Find it much more comfortable to hold down for long periods of time while using WASD than Ctrl.

The few games I've played that have a Sprint button that'd need to be down there anyway tend to be a "hit once and then don't stop or turn too hard" situation, anyway, so I can just quickly hit Ctrl for that.

 

[Undrey]

I love using a mouse for gameplay, but the keyboard part just ruins it for me. With a controller you know which buttons are used for the game, and for what. With the keyboard, yes, you can look at the menu, but it's hard (at least for me) to either remember them or reach them quickly when a game calls for it.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

I know I'm kinda hopping in uninvited in this discussion but I found this post interesting and I'd like to say my take on the matter.

I can totally understand the whole lap board thing, it feels like too much effort for something that should have a bit more comfort and allow freedom of movement, and I've never really been able to feel comfortable in such a situation with a KB+M on a couch in any case. That being said, I've grown up playing games at a desk (or at a keyboard I should say) and don't really feel uncomfortable doing that.

I used to game at a desk for the early to mid 2000's, but honestly, I haven't even owned a desk in probably a decade. Lots of moves, not part of my work/study lifestyle... hell, I get mad that I don't even have a comfortable place to draw, write or read sometimes when I'm sitting in a chair with a book stand, or a clipboard in my lap.

I know I'm kinda hopping in uninvited in this discussion but I found this post interesting and I'd like to say my take on the matter.I like the proximity of the screen and the immediacy and precision a KB+M combination can offer.

I have no problem being at desk and playing there with a keyboard, it's just the only way I'd do it and find it comfortable. My intent in this thread was never to say playing on PC or with keyboard and mouse sucks, it was to tell the OP to play the games that are better with it, if he can, and to use a controller for the rest instead of forcing himself to just to please a pushy friend, or feel like he has to be a "true" PC gamer.

But I also have a background of playing games on old home computers like the Commodore 64, so using the keyboard wasn't as weird. Also, my dad used to "fix" these old C64 joysticks by resoldering big keyboard keys to the joystick, eliminating the problem of broken joysticks (those things used to break a lot) but also introducing me to the wild concept of more precise, digital input.

That's the disconnect. A different lifestyle and upbringing.

We had one computer at school in 2nd grade and went to the library on Fridays to take turns playing Oregon Trail or Carmen San Diego for seriously 5 minutes each. It was always great, and then immediately terrible to be bumped off.

Then I used a few here and there to type up reports or writing projects at computer labs once or twice in 5th grade and 9th grade (depending on the school).

My first time playing Doom was on the PS1, and I love the music on that version. Sidenote conversation: setting L&R to strafe in that game was perfect for me, and playing Goldeneye on N64 with that controller and control scheme felt like having impaired my motor functions... hated it, returned it to Blockbuster. Didn't ever get any appreciation for it until getting it used for $10 years later and having more time/want to get used to it.

I remember taking some class to learn the basics of using alta vista, and typing a url in 1996, I believe.

Didn't own a PC at home until the year 2000, right after getting used to using the internet on Dreamcast. Then I played Diablo II and Quake III with it... a lot. I bound jump to the right mouse button, weapon select to the mouse wheel, left shoot on the left mouse button and move/strafe with the arrow keys. I'm pretty sure most people jump with space and hit numkeys for weapons - just couldn't get down like that, and I think it gave me an edge when I was younger and faster.

Now regarding Metal Slug and other older arcade and console games, I'd just like to preface that I've played these games on original hardware but also a lot on emulators, so playing them on a keyboard is second nature to me.

I played them in the arcade first, and same with all the SNES, Genesis etc roms I DL'd in 2000. When I played them, I never got far or enjoyed it, and just wanted a controller. I could do turn based JRPG's with top down, grid based movement, and that's how I played through a little bit of FFV with a fan translation. The only thing I made any other real use of was a rom of Pokemon TCG in an emulator that allowed for online play against a friend who convinced me to try the game.

I never really found a good controller for it, since most were pretty Mad Catz esque in make, or even worse quality... and nothing was very plug and play back then.

I ended up getting Metal Slug 3 for my roommate's xbox, and finally learned to nearly 1 credit that game since it had finite continues, no saves or save states. Metal Slug 4 & 5 I first played when they released on a single disc for PS2. Then when Metal Slug Anthology came out on 6th gen systems, it was the first time I was really enjoying the whole series regularly and indefinitely, with a PS2 controller.

Between 2004 and 2011, almost all I used my PC's and laptops for was the internet and writing.

I've made my way through a handful of browser based, newgrounds style 2D platformers, or top-down 2D zeldalikes, but not many and they all felt fish out of water for me. Even the original Meat Boy, I thought it was cool, but just left it alone. Full fledged console release with controller support and a very slight bit of controller design sensibilities, and it became relevant + second nature to me.

With all that being said, one could argue that being used to keyboard input for games your whole life (just like being used to controllers) eliminates the discomfort of being overwhelmed by additional surrounding inputs because your hand and fingers always land on the correct keys (I never think about stuff like WASD) and you press the correct keys without having to think about it. Likewise, one could argue that using a separate finger for each action/direction is much more efficient (while that efficiency makes the experience more enjoyable and comfortable), just like actual typing, playing the piano or other musical instruments is much more natural and efficient than using just your thumbs (or any two fingers) to do it, which might even make one feel like they're handicapped, like having amputated fingers etc, not to mention the need to take your thumb off one action to do another might create a very slight feel of anxiety or irritation, because you feel handicapped by not being able to immediately react to any given situation without potentially eliminating the immediate access to another action.

This makes sense to me, I don't feel the same way, but I can understand the musical instrument parallel. I don't think you're wrong, but it's not for me and if it wasn't for the early Humble Bundle's selling me XBLA indie darlings at an unbeatable price, I would have likely never been forced to buy a 360 controller and start playing on Steam for many years after. I'll play Civilization and Baldur's Gate II with a keyboard obviously (trackpad, sadly), but I'm just not going to play Mark of the Ninja or Strider 2014 etc without a controller. I bought xpadder for Cave Story+

I haven't touched an online FPS or DOTA style game on PC, because they're just not made for a laptop trackpad or a controller, and it's madness to try. Not going to buy furniture, another screen etc for this. They don't interest me enough. Stuff like CS:GO, unlike Quake III has all these other functions like crouch, necessary zoom etc that I couldn't map to just the mouse pad like I used to. All that stuff on a controller would be doable for me, but analog sticks just cannot work for fast pointer movement. You can crank up their movement speed with something like xpadder, but you won't be as precise and you can't make fine movements to quickly click on small pixel points.

What I will do, is eventually just build something for my TV and play with an X1 pad and a Steam controller, force myself to learn how to play something like Diablo III or Civilization with the Steam controller, because that's something I want to do, the carrot at the end of the stick is to my liking.

So I'm just saying that just as you're feeling uncomfortable by having multiple superfluous inputs in the vicinity of your actual main buttons and thinking about more than two fingers for input, you should be able to imagine someone feeling just as uncomfortable by being constrained by just two fingers for input and not having each action (or a small range of actions) assigned to a specific finger, for the aforementioned reasons. So it's not exactly like drawing with an Etch A Sketch, but I can imagine it might feel that way to some people.

I do. That's what my first replies ITT were, but some people want you to change, or feel inept and odd if you don't, and can't believe there's any legitimate grievances, preferences, or well-reasoned sensibilities behind your opinions.

But then again, I've beaten Super Mario Galaxy in Dolphin with KB+M, plenty of heavy action games like Metal Gear Rising or a couple of DmCs etc. so I'm aware I'm weird that way, and people will undoubtedly cringe at this, but I didn't do that just in spite, or to prove a point to anyone. I play these games on KB+M because it feels so much better to me, like I really have control over my actions and not feeling handicapped by my inputs. That being said, I've also played the Souls series on a controller, partly because the first game did a bad job at KB+M controls, and partly because the game controls really well on a controller anyway, and I have no problem with it.

You just play how you feel comfortable. I don't go to my younger cousin's house and tell him to stop playing MGSV with a keyboard on his lap and a mouse on his chair's arm rest... I'm just glad he plays games I like and isn't a filthy casual. He should definitely get a lap board, even if it's just a straight up piece of wood from Home Depot down the street.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

Interesting you'd bring up Cave Story, cause I tried playing that with a controller and I just can't do it. I can beat the game easily on keyboard but with a controller it's just so difficult. Running, aiming, jumping and shooting at the same time. I just can't do it.

 

[curiouscharles]

weird, KB+M is like the most comfortable way to game if you're sitting at your desktop computer in a regular desktop environment.

mind you, i only use KB+M for proper PC style FPS games.

hell, i use a gamepad, even on my PC, for nearly everything else [even Halo 5 PC customs, but that's because that game is MADE for gamepads, sucks on KB+M].

it will take some getting used to, but for Titanfall or any COD or general twitch / quake-style arena shooters - KB+M is king.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

Interesting you'd bring up Cave Story, cause I tried playing that with a controller and I just can't do it. I can beat the game easily on keyboard but with a controller it's just so difficult. Running, aiming, jumping and shooting at the same time. I just can't do it.

Cave Story's floatiness and movesets (hovering with downward fire etc) actually shows how much it's designed with keyboard in mind. This is a design rift between sidescrollers that were made for PC/browsers and for consoles, which not enough people really perceive. In a game like that, it's not a matter of not being playable on keyboard, it's a matter of just me not being able to play that way. My own hang up.

I don't mean the pejorative "floaty" that bad critics slap on everything they don't like, I just mean literal air control, hang time, gravity etc.

imo it's one of the reasons Super Meat Boy is such a hyperactive game with so much air time, that full embraces the inevitability of dying all over the place, needing time and extreme twitchiness for air control... as opposed to being a little more methodical, slow paced, keeping in mind the sense that you drop/stop on a dime, and have a tiny bit more initial feeling of control over the start of your run, jump and trajectory decisions.

That's not a knock against either of those games or that design by nature... just my understanding of the different feel that two different family trees of platformers have. I'm just waxing on design, not talking smack. It's a less perceivable division now than it was 10-20 years ago, since there's so much overlap between console, PC and players of both.

I think it's analogous to how slightly off Bethesda RPG's and the new Prey feel with a controller... slowing or speeding up look sensitivity is still "off" to me no matter which way I slice it. It's like they just let xinput do the work, consider it auto mapped, and nothing gets "tuned" to match how analog sticks actually feel. It's either finicky to make fine movements and interact with tiny objects, or hard to rapidly pan track fast moving enemies and then stop on a dime to target them. "console pleb" auto-aim isn't the answer either... it's straight up panning speed, analog dead zones etc. I've played through their games on consoles for hundreds of hours, love 'em anyway, but I still notice it whenever I go back to them after a long break playing other stuff.

 

[texhnolyze]

Well, there's nothing wrong with that.

I've been gaming on PC for 15+ years with mouse & keyboard as controller support was not a thing back then. I've already used to mouse & keyboard for gaming. However, I always prefer games with a controller support nowadays. And with the Steam controller and Dualshock 4 support on Steam, games without controller support can still be played with a controller now. I'd even play shooters like The Division with a controller on PC, and the upcoming Destiny 2 as well.

It's been a great era for PC gaming.

 

[wild_fire987]

I'm in a similar boat as OP... Grew up on consoles, but built a gaming PC about 3 years ago. Only recently have I started to play more action oriented games with the mouse and keyboard Overwatch and Battlegrounds. I have like 100 hours in those 2 games, but I still fumble with the keys and can get confused in tense situations.

 

[Deleted member 325805]

I'm the opposite, aiming with a controller feels like trying to fuck a doorknob to me.

 

[CloudyTuba]

I grew up with Keyboard/Mouse. The biggest jarring moment for me was when I had to switch to controller to play Halo 2 (I was introduced to the first one on PC). Felt like trash. I had so much less control, everything felt floaty. Didn't have a choice.

Now I've spent so many years playing games on consoles that I play my PC games with controllers also and it's hard to go back to kbm. I plug my xbox controller into the PC now.

I remember how much better it felt on kbm but it just doesn't feel that way anymore. Now kbm feels finicky.

 

[ichtyander]

I have no problem being at desk and playing there with a keyboard, it's just the only way I'd do it and find it comfortable. My intent in this thread was never to say playing on PC or with keyboard and mouse sucks, it was to tell the OP to play the games that are better with it, if he can, and to use a controller for the rest instead of forcing himself to just to please a pushy friend, or feel like he has to be a "true" PC gamer.

That's the disconnect. A different lifestyle and upbringing.

I do. That's what my first replies ITT were, but some people want you to change, or feel inept and odd if you don't, and can't believe there's any legitimate grievances, preferences, or well-reasoned sensibilities behind your opinions.

I agree, and I suppose I just blindly reacted solely on that one post of yours which was also a reaction to someone else's more rigid and one-sided post. The topic of controls in games in general is a pretty deep and important subject which sadly always deteriorates into everyone claiming what they're used to is the best and only way, and I'm also often guilty of maybe reacting in a more defensive manner because I like pointing that there's more than one way to look at things. The different upbringing definitely creates this large gap of not understanding and often outright discarding these other, weird sounding ideas. "How can this simple but crucial aspect of my own gaming experience ever be so different and still be valid?" That's always been pretty fascinating to me, and there's probably something deeper to be learned from it, about motor skills, how our brains work and adapt to these approximations, but instead both gamers and developers seem to keep reinventing the wheel, repeat the same mistakes and bicker about preferences. Pointless elitism is certainly pointless.

My first time playing Doom was on the PS1, and I love the music on that version. Sidenote conversation: setting L&R to strafe in that game was perfect for me, and playing Goldeneye on N64 with that controller and control scheme felt like having impaired my motor functions... hated it, returned it to Blockbuster. Didn't ever get any appreciation for it until getting it used for $10 years later and having more time/want to get used to it.

I love reading about other people's experiences with old games, thanks for that. It's just so very interesting that people get to experience slightly (or sometimes drastically) different versions of games, have that be their first time with it and that stays with you for life. I suppose it's a bit like watching a black and white version of a color movie, or maybe even a comic book adaptation of a book or movie, and that being your first experience with the story (just not as drastic since the adaptations are kept within the same medium, just on different systems).

I think it's analogous to how slightly off Bethesda RPG's and the new Prey feel with a controller... slowing or speeding up look sensitivity is still "off" to me no matter which way I slice it. It's like they just let xinput do the work, consider it auto mapped, and nothing gets "tuned" to match how analog sticks actually feel. It's either finicky to make fine movements and interact with tiny objects, or hard to rapidly pan track fast moving enemies and then stop on a dime to target them. "console pleb" auto-aim isn't the answer either... it's straight up panning speed, analog dead zones etc. I've played through their games on consoles for hundreds of hours, love 'em anyway, but I still notice it whenever I go back to them after a long break playing other stuff.

Interestingly enough, I've felt this way about Bethesda RPGs (and to a lesser extent the new Prey) while playing on KB+M as well. There is a certain finesse and fine tuning required in regards to basic character and camera movement that some studios either don't seem to care that much about, don't have the knowledge or just have people in charge of these aspects that have very different sensibilities and ideas about it. Even so, there are certain standards that should be maintained (as in following basic guidelines), but on the other hand it's obvious that a lot of people still buy and genuinely enjoy playing these games, so maybe most people aren't as sensitive to these issues or just don't care. It's also probably true that the more systems/mechanics heavy the game is, the less time is spent on fine tuning the basics (which might be doubly true for western-developed games). I loved the shit out of Prey, but I can't really say it feels that great as an FPS. On the other hand, I straight up couldn't finish Fallout 3 or play Skyrim for very long because of how terrible it feels to simply move, look and interact with those environments.

In the end it probably comes down to personal preferences again, since I mostly haven't been able to stomach some of Bethesda's RPGs but loved janky stuff like the STALKER games, whose combat doesn't feel very good IMO.