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[Artdayne]

A game like this cannot use mocap for the dialogue sequences. They need to have some parametric facial and gesture animation system that drives the characters during the dialogue. That usually never looks very natural, but in this game it's still by far better and more expressive than attempts to this I've seen in other games (most notably Witcher 3 and Mass Effect games)

I thought Witcher 3 was very good at conveying emotion through facial animations. I'm not sure where this idea is coming from that it was somehow lacking, the first I've ever heard such a thing.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Not seeing the results yet tbh

for example that whole:

"You can't cross!"

"I need to cross"

"Okay"

was bad.

Come on, that's disingenuous. I've criticised the writing but that's not a fair summary. If you want to legitimately criticise that dialogue then point out he said 'it scuttled from the woods'. That's a bloody awful line.. A villager would not include a descriptive narrative word like that. What that is is someone trying to add flavour to the writing without understanding which are dialogue words and which are narrative words. 'It ran from the woods' is what he would say. There's a lot of bad writing in this game but I've resigned myself to it and will ignore it as much as possible when playing.

I still can't get 'What if the answers are worse than not knowing?' out of my head. If you're reading this Guerilla, try 'What if the questions are better left unanswered?' Much tighter, less clumsy and with more impact.

 

[Heckler456]

I thought Witcher 3 was very good at conveying emotion through facial animations. I'm not sure where this idea is coming from that it was somehow lacking, the first I've ever heard such a thing.

From time to time, but they really weren't super emotive. After about 200 hours, I thought that it was 90% the same stoic facial expression with some amount of cues to other basic emotions. It worked well, and you definitely can't fault them for the sheer amount of effort they put in, but you can definitely tell that there is improvement to be made there.

 

[shinobi602]

Come on, that's disingenuous. I've criticised the writing but that's not a fair summary. If you want to legitimately criticise that dialogue then point out he said 'it scuttled from the woods'. That's a bloody awful line.. A villager would not include a descriptive narrative word like that. What that is is someone trying to add flavour to the writing without understanding which are dialogue words and which are narrative words. 'It ran from the woods' is what he would say. There's a lot of bad writing in this game but I've resigned myself to it and will ignore it as much as possible when playing.

According to who? I would hope villagers living a caveman-like life after a thousand years would speak differently than common street tongue.

I really despise the notion that everyone suddenly talks the same or something. I've seen so many baseless criticisms for writing in games and that's another one to the list. I use descriptive words regularly when I speak to people...I'm curious if they're actually laughing at me on the inside.

 

[ShemhazaiX]

I thought Witcher 3 was very good at conveying emotion through facial animations. I'm not sure where this idea is coming from that it was somehow lacking, the first I've ever heard such a thing.

In main story cutscenes, yes it was good. However in anything involving side quests it was just standard WRPG dead pan faces.

Kind of like what we're getting here.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

According to who? I would hope villagers living a caveman-like life after a thousand years would speak differently than common street tongue.

I really despise the notion that everyone suddenly talks the same or something. I've seen so many baseless criticisms for writing in games and that's another one to the list. I use descriptive words regularly when I speak to people...I'm curious if they're actually laughing at me on the inside.

'Scuttled' is a narrative verb. It's like saying 'I traversed the road'. Dialogue should be natural. its the flow of the language that makes it unique to certain people, unless you're talking about bankers, accountants of politicians. This is a villager we're talking about here.

I added another example of more bad writing from the trailer:

I still can't get 'What if the answers are worse than not knowing?' out of my head. If you're reading this Guerilla, try 'What if the questions are better left unanswered?' Much tighter, less clumsy and with more impact.

 

[The God]

Come on, that's disingenuous. I've criticised the writing but that's not a fair summary. If you want to legitimately criticise that dialogue then point out he said 'it scuttled from the woods'. That's a bloody awful line.. A villager would not include a descriptive narrative word like that. What that is is someone trying to add flavour to the writing without understanding which are dialogue words and which are narrative words. 'It ran from the woods' is what he would say. There's a lot of bad writing in this game but I've resigned myself to it and will ignore it as much as possible when playing.

I still can't get 'What if the answers and worse than not knowing?' out of my head. If you're reading this Guerilla, try 'What if the questions are better left unanswered?' Much tighter, less clumsy and with more impact.

That's fair. The writing quality will be less of a big deal to me if everything else is solid.

 

[CrazyDude]

'Scuttled' is a narrative verb. It's like saying 'I traversed the road'. Dialogue should be natural. its the flow of the language that makes it unique to certain people, unless you're talking about bankers, accountants of politicians. This is a villager we're talking about here.

I don't know. Shakespearean English doesn't sound natural to me or flow well to me when compared to modern English..

 

[shinobi602]

'Scuttled' is a narrative verb. It's like saying 'I traversed the road'. Dialogue should be natural. its the flow of the language that makes it unique to certain people, unless you're talking about bankers, accountants of politicians. This is a villager we're talking about here.

That just sounds like artificially limiting people to the way they "should" talk, to me. Not really a big fan of that. Older English doesn't really "flow" to me either but it's clear people used to speak like that before us in the modern day.

In the end it depends on the person on the listening end I guess because that didn't stand out to me at all and I'm sure many others.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

I don't know. Shakespearean English doesn't sound natural to me or flow well to me when compared to modern English..

It's got nothing to do with modern English, it's to do with bad writing. Watch all the cutscenes from TLOU to hear great dialogue.

 

[shinobi602]

It's got nothing to do with modern English, it's to do with bad writing. Watch all the cutscenes from TLOU to hear great dialogue.

It's got everything to do with it. I don't think tribespeople (that have reverted back to caveman like tribalism) should sound the way we do when speaking.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

That's fair. The writing quality will be less of a big deal to me if everything else is solid.

Same here. I've just accepted it because the game looks like fun to play. I was impressed with the dialogue in Days Gone which is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to that game. It was a little 'sweeter' than TLOU but I thought the acting added enough flavour to make it acceptable.

 

[jonboi24]

Damn still hard to believe this is how far games have come. Man its a great time to be a gamer.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

It's got everything to do with it. I don't think tribespeople (that have reverted back to caveman like tribalism) should sound the way we do when speaking.

It's wrong on every level. Let's accept that in the future natives have learned to use narrative words when speaking to each other. Now we've excepted that, let's examine the sentence again:

'It scuttled from the woods'

If we are to accept narrative words are now part of the vocabulary we'd have to assume they also know when to use those words, unless we are to suggest not only are they using narrative words but they're using them incorrectly. 'Scuttling' is a word associated with small creatures. A spider, a crab, even possibly a mouse with uncut nails on a tiled floor. That thing was huge and so it's still bad writing.

 

[shinobi602]

It's wrong on every level. Let's accept that in the future natives have learned to use narrative words when speaking to each other. Now we've excepted that, let's examine the sentence again:

'It scuttled from the woods'

If we are to accept narrative words are now part of the vocabulary we'd have to assume they also know when to use those words, unless we are to suggest not only are they using narrative words but they're using them incorrectly. 'Scuttling' is a word associated with small creatures. A spider, a crab, even possibly a mouse with uncut nails on a tiled floor. That thing was huge and so it's still bad writing.

I mean, by the strict definition of the word it just means to move with quick haste, there's nothing to suggest it has to mean something small other than what we've becomes used to when using that word. I think you're being just little too critical on that part

 

[GnawtyDog]

I mean, by the strict definition of the word it just means to move with quick haste, there's nothing to suggest it has to mean something small other than what we've becomes used to when using that word. I think you're being just little too critical on that part

I actually agree with Grunger's point. Many devs don't correct these little errors. Are they errors in the sense that it's wrong? No. Does the dialogue suffer as a result given the context? Absolutely.

I still can't get 'What if the answers are worse than not knowing?' out of my head. If you're reading this Guerilla, try 'What if the questions are better left unanswered?' Much tighter, less clumsy and with more impact.

Better yet... a pause..then "maybe(or perhaps) the questions are better left unanswered." It creates intrigue, slows the moment. Aloy's response, the comeback line feeds into the intrigue with the energetic, affirmative curiosity - a nice change of tone contrast.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

I mean, by the strict definition of the word it just means to move with quick haste, there's nothing to suggest it has to mean something small other than what we've becomes used to when using that word. I think you're being just little too critical on that part

But that's the difference between good writing and bad writing. ND know what good writing is.

We'll leave it at that. No offence meant.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Better yet... a pause..then "maybe(or perhaps) the questions are better left unanswered."

I was trying not to change the feeling of the narration too much, but yes, that's more natural and so better. 'Perhaps' is a stronger word (because of the 'P') than 'maybe' (which is softened by the 'M') so I'd go with that.

In German grammar you'll notice they often switch verb/subject, so instead of writing 'he walked up the stairs' they write 'up the stairs he walked.' I think that's part of the problem with the narration. It's riddled with it. Sometimes it works though, like 'Why earth is ours no more.' That gives it gravitas.

 

[Jawbreaker]

On the bright side, the game is so good that the thread has devolved to mere pedantry.

 

[FATALITY]

??

Just so we're on the same page here, I'm not expecting Horzon to have much of an in-depth or great narrative. It lseems ok, and servicable, but this really looks like a game that will live and die by the quality of it's gameplay and mission design. You post makes almost no sense as far as affirming this will be a great game.

Witcher had serviceable combat, but the story was absolutely amazing, and massive. This, along with all the great quests, and RPG depth, is why the witcher was so great. If Horozon's combat is only serviceably more enjoyable than the witcher's that isn't a great sign.

Having said that, the gameplay in Horizon looks like a lot of emergent fun. I'm much less worried about that, than I am the story and mission design. I just hope it isn't a short game, and doesn't get overly repetitive, and have a shallow, uninteresting narrative.

On the bright side, I hear most of Guerrilla's top guys were working on this, instead of Killzone shadowfall, so I fully expect this to be a higher quality game than that.

im talking about gameplay and you are bringing other stuff wtf?

 

[FATALITY]

I thought Witcher 3 was very good at conveying emotion through facial animations. I'm not sure where this idea is coming from that it was somehow lacking, the first I've ever heard such a thing.

lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD-MxkaoHRk

rpgs are shitty in that department... all of them

 

[metareferential]

I think it will because there are 2 types of machines. The animal looking ones that actually repopulate. And the Metal Gear looking ones which looks like its meant to be a weapon and is actually really old.

Could be. I'm very curious to see where they take the narrative; lots of great opportunities.

 

[Elfstruck]

ND know what good writing is

I love ND, but no.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

Amazing. Who needs Neo.

Me. The foliage pop-in was very noticeable. Need this gem in the best state possible.

I love ND, but no.

Um yes. Are you hearing impaired?

 

[FATALITY]

guerrila should hire you guys. apparently there is lot talented writers in this forum.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

I love ND, but no.

Ellie: Is this really all they had to worry about? Boys. Movies. Deciding
which shirt goes with which skirt? It's bizarre.

Joel: Get up, we're leaving. C'mon.

Ellie: And if I say no?

Joel: Do you even realize what your life means? Huh? Running off like that.
Putting yourself at risk...it's pretty goddamn stupid.

Ellie: Well, I guess we're both disappointed with each other then.

Joel: What do you want from me?

Ellie: Admit that you wanted to get rid of me the whole time.

Joel: Tommy knows this area better than--

Ellie: Agh, fuck that.

Joel: Well, I'm sorry, I trust him better than I trust myself.

Ellie: Stop with the bullshit. What are you so afraid of? That I'm gonna end
up like Sam? I can't get infected. I can take care of myself.

Joel: How many close calls have we had?

Ellie: Well, we seem to be doing alright so far.

Joel: And now you'll be doing even better with Tommy.

Ellie: I'm not her, you know.

Joel: What?

Ellie: Maria told me about Sarah. And I--

Joel: Ellie. You are treading on some mighty thin ice here.

Ellie: I'm sorry about your daughter, Joel, but I have lost people too.

Joel: You have no idea what loss is.

Ellie: Everyone I have cared for has either died or left me. Everyone fucking
except for you. So don't tell me that I would be safer with someone
else -- because the truth is I'd just be more scared.

Joel: You're right... You're not my daughter, and I sure as hell ain't your
dad. And we are going our separate ways.

 

[Kyoufu]

Um, GribbleGrunger, how do you not understand that tribesmen speak like they're not far advanced in their native language? They're tribesmen.

Jesus. Talk about not getting it.

Why are you posting TLOU dialogue. wtf

 

[fastmower]

But that's the difference between good writing and bad writing. ND know what good writing is.

We'll leave it at that. No offence meant.

ND games fall victim to poor writing too.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD-MxkaoHRk

rpgs are shitty in that department... all of them

guerrila should hire you guys. apparently there is lot talented writers in this forum.

.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

Um, GribbleGrunger, how do you not understand that tribesmen speak like they're not far advanced in their native language? They're tribesmen.

Jesus. Talk about not getting it.

Why are you posting TLOU dialogue. wtf

Because someone claimed ND writing is not good. Try to keep up.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Um, GribbleGrunger, how do you not understand that tribesmen speak like they're not far advanced in their native language? They're tribesmen.

Jesus. Talk about not getting it.

Why are you posting TLOU dialogue. wtf

Trust me, it's not me that's not getting it.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Dialogue seemed fine to me what little I've heard anyway. Meh

 

[johnnydrama]

Not particularly bothered by animations during conversations. There's going to be hundreds of these over the course of the game, and it's going to be really expensive and time-consuming to hand-craft each and every on of them. There's a reason Bethesda, Bioware, and CDPR RPGs have a defined set of conversation animations. Dialogue and writing seem on par with most AAA video games. I don't know where these "awful" and "cringey" complaints are coming from. This ain't no CDPR or Naughty Dog level stuff, but it's fine. Horizon is focusing on combat, exploration, and crafting aspects. I'm more than okay with Guerrilla nailing the game design aspects. Never been a fan of their games before, but this looks phenomenal. Can't wait.

 

[Kyoufu]

Trust me, it's not me that's not getting it.

So you're saying tribal people should speak proper English when they can't even read or write? They use hieroglyphics to tell stories and images as signs. Mankind has been reset.

Tell me what I don't get, sir.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

So you're saying tribal people should speak proper English when they can't even read or write? They use hieroglyphics to tell stories and images as signs. Mankind has been reset.

Tell me what I don't get, sir.

You might want to go back over the conversation and read it carefully. You're currently strengthening my critique.

 

[Lys Skygge]

lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD-MxkaoHRk

rpgs are shitty in that department... all of them

Lol. The first thing I thought of when Horizon showed a conversation was The Witcher 3.

 

[fastmower]

I mean, by the strict definition of the word it just means to move with quick haste, there's nothing to suggest it has to mean something small other than what we've becomes used to when using that word. I think you're being just little too critical on that part

Don't waste your time, man. I'm with you on this. His argument is hurting my head.

 

[Elfstruck]

Um yes. Are you hearing impaired?

Just because I love their game doesn't mean I can't criticize them. And calling someone's hearing impaired is rather inappropriate and immature, because they have different opinion than your.

...

Because I don't like their dialogue line, just like how you don't like the dialogue in this game. You claim that ND has good writing and I simply don't think so.

 

[Nauren]

Not that direct definitions of words can be used anyways. We are talking about a futuristic and isolated tribe of humans. The language would likely be unrecognizable. As long as the person playing the game can understand the meaning, doesn't matter what words were used.

 

[Dutch Microwave]

I don't know how much the rest of you know about post-post-apocalyptic cultures (I'm an expert) but descriptive narrative verbs are a huge part of their language.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Just because I love their game doesn't mean I can't criticize them. And calling someone's hearing impaired is rather inappropriate and immature, because they have different opinion than your.


Because I don't like their dialogue line, just like how you don't like the dialogue in this game. You claim that ND has good writing and I simply don't think so.

Can I ask what game you consider has good writing and could you provide an example, please?

 

[Kyoufu]

Why does "scuttled" have to be describing a small creature? And why does it matter what a primitive (of sorts) tribesman uses as a verb?

May the Goddess have mercy.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

I don't know how much the rest of you know about post-post-apocalyptic cultures (I'm an expert) but descriptive narrative verbs are a huge part of their language.

Touché, sir

 

[Elfstruck]

Can I ask what game you consider has good writing and could you provide an example, please?

Planescape torment. The dialogues are actually meaningful and carry weight. Anyway, it seems like you are too obsess with the writing in this game and ruin another Horizon's thread. I noticed you complain the exact same thing in every Horizon's thread. Give it a rest already.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

Just because I love their game doesn't mean I can't criticize them. And calling someone's hearing impaired is rather inappropriate and immature, because they have different opinion than your.



Because I don't like their dialogue line, just like how you don't like the dialogue in this game. You claim that ND has good writing and I simply don't think so.

I'm not sure how you can even like ND games if you don't like their dialogue and narrative. That is the main hook for their games these days. No way I could have finished Uncharted 4 if I thought the writing was bad.

 

[kyser73]

Villagers don't use adverbs now?

Ok.

 

[victreeb3l]

I agree

though the colors in one of the gifs one scene(jungle area?) kinda looked like that artwork

Good Lord this is gorgeous

 

[Artdayne]

lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD-MxkaoHRk

rpgs are shitty in that department... all of them

I haven't played every RPG so I can't really vouch for that statement, but apparently you have.

 

[GnawtyDog]

We'll know there is a hype train to ride (and it's fair to say Grunger is on it) but lets not dismiss valid criticism with a wave of piggy back dismissals just because. Ignore and move on if you're not into it and write about whatever it's you want to write about.

 

[Kyoufu]

We'll know there is a hype train to ride (and it's fair to say Grunger is on it) but lets not dismiss valid criticism with a wave of piggy back dismissals just because. Ignore and move on if you're not into it and write about whatever it's you want to write about.

I've yet to see valid criticism aside from the facial animations. Those are not very good.

We haven't seen much of the other aspects (story, customisation) of the game to criticise them with any real merit.