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How do you feel about Global Warming?

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Honestly it's really hard to see through all the smoke that's being created by the media, so called experts, real experts and agenda driven companies, lobbyists, and plain people that just voice their personal opinion so... i really don't know HOW to feel about it when it's all said and done!

I AM pretty sure however that it couldn't HARM humanity and earth's climate in the long run to do something in favor of cleaner energy sources.
 

Famassu

Member
Technology is really the answer. Technology means things like... better energy production, so that we do not have to use fossil fuels. It means alternative carbon sinks. It means more accurate data tracking and weather simulations. It means better recycling and 'greener' products.

Technology is in my opinion, the only realistic solution. Expecting the world to suddenly have a lifestyle change is not.
Again, technology can delay the inevidable by making things more efficient and adding pollution-free energy sources (that won't completely replace the polluting alternatives any time soon), but technological advances so far have done fuck all to anything. Technology is far more efficient now than ever before, yet we are still consuming too much and the pace is just increasing. To really solve things, not only do we need to find better energy sources etc., we also need to consume less. That's just something we can't get over no matter how technologically advanced we become.

We can't go on with people buying a new model of iPhone every 4 months, eating 1kg of meat every day, polluting the oceans, lakes & other waterbodies with fucktons of waste, throwing away plastic in the shittons or killing all kinds of key species to extinction because of pure ignorance or/and greed.

Technology doesn't fix the fact that meat production is one of the worst environmental problems outside of climate change itself. And if you think people are going to accept some lab-made meat as an alternative, think again. I doubt in vitro meat will catch on when most people can't even accept the current alternatives that aren't all that different from meat.

There's no a chance in hell a large majority will accept not eating real meat unless it's forced upon them and pretty much all of the developed world won't do that. People have been brainwashed by the overglorification of meat for too long for it to change in the kind of time span it would need to change for things to be good. Not to even mention that even then that in vitro meat would need to be made from something, which will need to be gathered and processed, which uses energy & other resources, so it's doubtful if that is a better alternative than natural ones or just stopping meat consumption, or at least eating less of it.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
regarding drought and crops, I wonder if industrialising and growing under artificial climates might help with that? Eg with the huge number of plastic tunnels already used, expanding that kind of approach along with irrigation.

Basically you need to bypass the natural environment if it is too harsh. Would be a huge effort but I wonder if that could be an option?
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
We're idiots and others will suffer greatly for that fact.

I assume you're talking generally about the Human race. Because otherwise it probably won't literally affect us greatly, it'll affect those just born, or still to be born. Which is why it is so easy to sweep under the carpet and hope it'll go away - its someone else's problem
 

Gattsu25

Banned
I was initially cool to the idea but I've been warming up to it recently.

Joking aside, we already know that man can have an impact on the environment. We already know that pollution is terrible for everyone. Even if someone doesn't believe the overwhelming scientific consensus that man has a negative impact on the world's climate, they surely can't be against reducing the pollution that we spew into the atmosphere, right?

I know this image gets posted repeatedly (probably even in this very thread), but it really is asking a great point.

EyegW44.jpg
 

Grinchy

Banned
I feel like maybe we're supposed to ruin the planet's capability to sustain our lives so that we can die off and a new species can dominate millions of years from now. The new species will be suited to whatever state the planet is in at that time. And maybe they'll die off for some reason or other as well.

These cycles will continue for billions of years until the sun dies off and that'll be it for the tale of the Earth. Meanwhile, there are other planets going through the same lifecycles. And it's all complete randomness with no reason behind it.
 

Josh7289

Member
I feel like maybe we're supposed to ruin the planet's capability to sustain our lives so that we can die off and a new species can dominate millions of years from now. The new species will be suited to whatever state the planet is in at that time. And maybe they'll die off for some reason or other as well.

These cycles will continue for billions of years until the sun dies off and that'll be it for the tale of the Earth. Meanwhile, there are other planets going through the same lifecycles. And it's all complete randomness with no reason behind it.

I think that's just as bad as giving up and saying "god" to explain anything. We don't have to forfeit ourselves to fate. We have intelligence and the capability for rational thought. That's what sets us apart from the other species. We can see what we're doing and what we're heading for, and we can change our behavior to prevent it. We don't have to throw ourselves away.
 

Famassu

Member
I was initially cool to the idea but I've been warming up to it recently.

Joking aside, we already know that man can have an impact on the environment. We already know that pollution is terrible for everyone. Even if someone doesn't believe the overwhelming scientific consensus that man has a negative impact on the world's climate, they surely can't be against reducing the pollution that we spew into the atmosphere, right?

I know this image gets posted repeatedly (probably even in this very thread), but it really is asking a great point.
Unfortunately, they can. A majority of the problems that all of this reckless consumerism & shit causes are unseen where a majority of people causing these problems live (that is, the developed countries). They perhaps have healthy nature around them, the air & water quality on average isn't totally horrible, their grocery stores are filled with food and there has maybe been a few warmer days in a year than on average, which is nice to most people. What they can't see, they don't care about.

And yeah, it's really kind of annoying how stupid people can be. I mean, there's something like the ozone hole & depletion, which is 100% human-made, huge worldwide atmospheric phenomena that has already had noticeable real-world consequences AND it has been partly (but not completely) solved by (almost) the whole world working together. And now there's a somewhat similar atmospheric problem caused by somewhat similar shitting of the atmosphere, yet suddenly it's so hard to believe that it is human-made or that it can have some huge consequences. Does not compute indeed.

regarding drought and crops, I wonder if industrialising and growing under artificial climates might help with that? Eg with the huge number of plastic tunnels already used, expanding that kind of approach along with irrigation.

Basically you need to bypass the natural environment if it is too harsh. Would be a huge effort but I wonder if that could be an option?
Probably not, especially in areas of drought. The water needs to come somewhere and if it's not there, then it's just not there. A lot of places are already at their limits and if the evapotranspiration increases even a little bit, precipitation diminishes and/or humans start using more water (increasing population, industrial need increases etc.), then that can mean potential ruin to a lot of areas.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Again, technology can delay the inevidable by making things more efficient and adding pollution-free energy sources (that won't completely replace the polluting alternatives any time soon), but technological advances so far have done fuck all to anything. Technology is far more efficient now than ever before, yet we are still consuming too much and the pace is just increasing. To really solve things, not only do we need to find better energy sources etc., we also need to consume less. That's just something we can't get over no matter how technologically advanced we become.

We can't go on with people buying a new model of iPhone every 4 months, eating 1kg of meat every day, polluting the oceans, lakes & other waterbodies with fucktons of waste, throwing away plastic in the shittons or killing all kinds of key species to extinction because of pure ignorance or/and greed.

Technology doesn't fix the fact that meat production is one of the worst environmental problems outside of climate change itself. And if you think people are going to accept some lab-made meat as an alternative, think again. I doubt in vitro meat will catch on when most people can't even accept the current alternatives that aren't all that different from meat.

There's no a chance in hell a large majority will accept not eating real meat unless it's forced upon them and pretty much all of the developed world won't do that. People have been brainwashed by the overglorification of meat for too long for it to change in the kind of time span it would need to change for things to be good. Not to even mention that even then that in vitro meat would need to be made from something, which will need to be gathered and processed, which uses energy & other resources, so it's doubtful if that is a better alternative than natural ones or just stopping meat consumption, or at least eating less of it.

Technology fixes all those problems. Technology has already begun to help with energy, and this trend will continue to grow.

And technology is what's going to eventually make farms with cows obsolete, ideally we'll just grow meat, sans animal - which will coincide with vertical farms.

Technology let's people enjoy their lives the way they want to, while still being increasingly efficient and environmentally friendly. We're not going to force the world to go vegetarian, short of disaster. But we could convince people to eat grown meat with the right incentives.

So it doesn't delay the inevitable, it can fundamentally solve many of our issues.
 

Grinchy

Banned
I think that's just as bad as giving up and saying "god" to explain anything. We don't have to forfeit ourselves to fate. We have intelligence and the capability for rational thought. That's what sets us apart from the other species. We can see what we're doing and what we're heading for, and we can change our behavior to prevent it. We don't have to throw ourselves away.

Of course we can change our behavior but I feel like we'll choose not to. It would take a majorly devastating event that we survived in order for major change on a global scale to occur.
 
I don't know why people throw their hands up and say "there's nothing we can do", when we can point to positively changing the atmosphere and the environment with the Hole in the Ozone Layer only a few decades ago.

This is a bigger problem, but the solutions are similar. Do people have such short memories?
 

Famassu

Member
Technology fixes all those problems. Technology has already begun to help with energy, and this trend will continue to grow.
The amount of energy we use grows at a faster pace than what the technological advances make tech efficient. We also consume all resources faster than we have ever did in the history of mankind, even if the tech we use is far more efficient than ever before. No kind of miracle tech in the next decade or two will probably change this fact. And then there's shit like smartphones that need to be charged every two minutes and don't last past 1-2 years vs. mobile phones of the past with batteries that would last 1-2+ weeks with moderate use if you weren't on the phone every second of the day and which last 10 years if you don't treat them horribly.

And technology is what's going to eventually make farms with cows obsolete, ideally we'll just grow meat, sans animal - which will coincide with vertical farms.
Do you REALLY think people are that easily turned into eating artificially made meat? If the taste or texture is even slightly off, that will cause people to turn away from it. People are pathetic like that. Peope bitch about smaller things and are vary of eating all kinds of stuff because of sillier reasons. That kind of transition will take decades (unless the governments force it on people, which would be political suicide for every politician) while Real Men & Women will insist on eating Real Meat. There's stuff like tofu & soy meat that are already pretty close to 1:1 to meat if you know what you're doing (it's not exactly the same, but you can use it in the same way, the taste is excellent if you know how to spice/marinade your food at all and after a bit of a transition period, you don't really miss meat all that much, if at all).

The meat will also have to be made from something. That something is a resource that has to be gotten from somewhere or made from something which doesn't just magically appear to the places that need that stuff to make the food. Making meat in vitro will also need energy, and we aren't exactly near of 100% clean energy any time soon.

Technology let's people enjoy their lives the way they want to, while still being increasingly efficient and environmentally friendly. We're not going to force the world to go vegetarian, short of disaster. But we could convince people to eat grown meat with the right incentives.
Technology doesn't just magically pop up from thin air. We need to screw a whole lot of areas in the world to get all the metal & other resources needed to build all that technology and the processes used to make metals usable aren't exactly good for the environment. We also can't be sure WHEN that kind of technology is going to be out there in any kind of meaningful scope. If it still takes 20-30+ years for that technology to even exist as a potentially mass producable product + it'll take a long time for worldwide adaptation, then that might already be too late if we just continue doing shit like we are doing it atm while waiting for this miracle technology that will fix everything.

So it doesn't delay the inevitable, it can fundamentally solve many of our issues.
Technology alone is not enough. There are things that need to change regardless of technology. Clean energy isn't the only problem we are facing.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
The amount of energy we use grows at a faster pace than what the technological advances make tech efficient. We also consume all resources faster than we have ever did in the history of mankind, even if the tech we use is far more efficient than ever before. No kind of miracle tech in the next decade or two will probably change this fact. And then there's shit like smartphones that need to be charged every two minutes and don't last past 1-2 years vs. mobile phones of the past with batteries that would last 1-2+ weeks with moderate use if you weren't on the phone every second of the day and which last 10 years if you don't treat them horribly.

Sure we are using more energy than ever - a lot of nations are in their stage of development where they are using fossil fuels to really get them from A to B. But China is investing heavily in renewables, and so is most of the developed world - the rate of progress of solar is really impressive, and Nuclear production will hopefully continue to grow.

The solution to our energy woes is not to use less energy - as that is entirely unrealistic and might not ever happen - the solution is to continue to improve our energy tech. In this case, the realistic solution is absolutely a technological one, not a sociological one.

And I think you might be simplifying things when you point to cellphone battery tech as some sort of indicator. Mobile devices are a completely different beast now than they were in the past, and in fact trends support the idea that tablets/cellphones are replacing peoples need to constantly upgrade their desktop computers - hence the tanking desktop market. That they take significant more power is to be expected.

Do you REALLY think people are that easily turned into eating artificially made meat? If the taste or texture is even slightly off, that will cause people to turn away from it. People are pathetic like that. Peope bitch about smaller things and are vary of eating all kinds of stuff because of sillier reasons. That kind of transition will take decades (unless the governments force it on people, which would be political suicide for every politician) while Real Men & Women will insist on eating Real Meat. There's stuff like tofu & soy meat that are already pretty close to 1:1 to meat if you know what you're doing (it's not exactly the same, but you can use it in the same way, the taste is excellent if you know how to spice/marinade your food at all and after a bit of a transition period, you don't really miss meat all that much, if at all).

There is no fundamental reason we can't get lab meat to taste as good as, if not better than traditional meat - if we could do this with Tofu/fake-meats now, and have them cost the same as regular meat - I am sure more people would switch. So yeah - I think again, the solution here is a technological one - whether it be lab grown meat, or fake meat that is more convincing. Expecting people to stop eating meat, however, is not realistic.

The meat will also have to be made from something. That something is a resource that has to be gotten from somewhere or made from something which doesn't just magically appear to the places that need that stuff to make the food. Making meat in vitro will also need energy, and we aren't exactly near of 100% clean energy any time soon.

We're not 100% clean with energy, but we are improving, and pretty quickly. Do you think it doesn't count unless we're at 100%, and we should throw everything out the window until we hit that goal? We should encourage the trend and hope that we can get more and more out of renewables and green energy in the future - and we will, it's a guarantee.

And look into in vitro meat - the environmental benefits are potentially huge. It doesn't mean we no longer have to consume -anything- but it is a really big game changer.

Technology doesn't just magically pop up from thin air. We need to screw a whole lot of areas in the world to get all the metal & other resources needed to build all that technology and the processes used to make metals usable aren't exactly good for the environment. We also can't be sure WHEN that kind of technology is going to be out there in any kind of meaningful scope. If it still takes 20-30+ years for that technology to even exist as a potentially mass producable product + it'll take a long time for worldwide adaptation, then that might already be too late if we just continue doing shit like we are doing it atm while waiting for this miracle technology that will fix everything.

So the solution is to get resources from better locations - hence our new push to mine asteroids. And again, if your issue is that technology takes a while to be implemented, that isn't an issue with technology in and of itself, its an issue with like... time. Everything takes time, until we invent a time machine or some shit.

Technology alone is not enough. There are things that need to change regardless of technology. Clean energy isn't the only problem we are facing.

If technology 'alone' isn't the solution, then what is? I don't mean this snarkily, I just don't know -what else- we can use to help the problem in any guaranteed way. People are fickle, technology is slightly less so - so I'd rather bet on solar panels, space mining, in vitro meat and vertical farms than on people deciding to cull themselves down to a sustainable number and hunting for sustenance. I don't use that example as a hyperbole, it's just something that has been levied at me multiple times as an alternative to a 'technotopia' as some people like to call it.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
If technology 'alone' isn't the solution, than what is? I don't mean this snarkily, I just don't know -what else- we can use to help the problem in any guaranteed way. People are fickle, technology is slightly less so - so I'd rather bet on solar panels, space mining, in vitro meat and vertical farms than on people deciding to cull themselves down to a sustainable number and hunting for sustenance. I don't use that example as a hyperbole, it's just something that has been levied at me multiple times as an alternative to a 'technotopia' as some people like to call it.

Technology alone isn't the solution. We need the mindset to adopt that technology. Indeed... as I've said before... the technology to prevent the majority of the most pressing issues we face regarding global warming already exist today.

We have the technology to not overfish our oceans. We have the technology to go nuclear. We have the technology to be more considerate to each other, to all life, and to the planet.

Now we need the collective will to do so.
 

hipbabboom

Huh? What did I say? Did I screw up again? :(
How do I feel about it? It's troubling. It's even more troubling that there are actually people who are willfully ignoring it. Its even more troubling that many of the supporters want to attach to the dialog things to it that helps no one on the fence buy into the cause. You have doubters saying its Gods will to produce carbon and extremist who what to push an Atheist agenda into the conversation. You have freaks on the fence also yelling chem trails and no one knows what their all about.

It almost seems like people just enjoy the argument and their ideology and few care about the problem.
 
Honestly it's really hard to see through all the smoke that's being created by the media, so called experts, real experts and agenda driven companies, lobbyists, and plain people that just voice their personal opinion so... i really don't know HOW to feel about it when it's all said and done!

I AM pretty sure however that it couldn't HARM humanity and earth's climate in the long run to do something in favor of cleaner energy sources.

The Merchants of Doubts have succeeded.
 
Yes.

The most efficient ways to solve this situation all happen to be very anti-industry, which will make things very difficult, unfortunately.

I honestly see this as being the future.

Armchair future predictor time. Solar panels will be much cheaper in a decade and by then climate change will be a huge political issue that will be widely accepted.

New houses and old houses will be built with solar panels on the roof where energy will be used when needed and sold back to the national grid when more is gathered than used. Electric cars will be huge which will be powered by said houses powered by solar.

Coal will be dead and natural gas will probably be energy companies final stepping stone between carbon energy and full on clean energy, not wanting to have zero return on investment from their decades of R&D into drilling these expensive deposits (That are only viable due to the high price of gas). At least natural gas is cleaner than coal in both emissions and air quality, although fracking is kinda shitty.

The damage will be done, but I honestly see a huge revolution coming with electric cars and solar panels constantly becoming cheaper. Once the republican party explodes and hopefully returns to a viable true conservative party, it will see clean energy being the cheaper long term option over carbon energy when it comes to the price of continuing and fueling climate change, considering clean energy will be popular and truly viable.

But I don't know, I'm just optimistic that we as a collective won't be dumb enough to completely fuck this shit up. It's too bad the liberal "environmentalists" created a false war on nuclear energy, we would have been so much better off if people wouldn't be so scared of nuclear energy for such bogus reasons (I live less than 40 miles from one)

Obama is already starting the idea that climate change is here and now, which is the smartest thing you can do(And it is here and now), considering human nature is inhernetly short sighted and in the "now". I think he is laying the ground work for real progress when Clinton takes office, although republicans will still hold the House.

We have about 20 years to turn this ship around, I think we can do it.

TL:DR Main power sources in the near future will be solar and natural gas, with households being built and installed with their own solar panels slowly becoming a common option. Carbon will be phased out over a reasonable amount of time and humanity will have to deal with the damage it has already done.
 
My take on it is that we need to stop incessantly focusing on "the message" and take proactive measures with economic incentives to mitigate its hastening progression. I put forth the following idea: transition to a Nuclear-Methanol Economy. Here is why:
-Gen 3, Gen 4, and Gen 4+ fision nuclear reactors (e.g., fast breeder reactors like IVRs or MSRs like LFTR) are passively safe, burn spent fuel from today's old school reactors, are much smaller and have more manageable reactions while still outputting the same or more power (higher efficiency and stability), can potentially burn ubiquitous and plentiful feedstocks like thorium, produce small bits of waste with much shorter halflifes, produce rare earths as a byproduct, don't produce weapons grade plutonium or uranium as a byproduct, it produces little to no greenhouse gasses as a byproduct, etc.
-methanol is the simplest of alcohols and can be produced in mass anaerobically from any organic waste--logging and agricultural waste--or non food energy cache crops like industrial hemp; it is less volitale than gasoline having only half the energy density but can leverage the same infrastructure with minimal modifications; using nonfossilized organic matter as its feedstock ensures no net carbon is added to the atmosphere when burnt; it can also be used in fuel cells; its feedstocks are are ubiquitous, plentiful, and sustainable, etc.

There are many benefits and synergies gained from leveraging both in tandem. Producing cheap, plentiful, sustainable energy is just the tip of the metaphorical ice berg. Let's make it happen and save people from themselves.
 
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