heliosRAzi
Banned
This thread is like a glimpse back to 1998
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
How much more powerful was the N64 compared to the PlayStation anyway?
- Thread starter Snakeyes
- Start date
D.Lo
Member
Wario Wii gives it a run for its money...
Thunder Monkey
Banned
I'm not listening la la la la
By the way, just so we're clear Falcon, I celebrate retro gaming in all forms. N64 is go!
I just had a nerdgasm! This is beautiful.
You over-estimate PC hardware of that era.
I simply can't agree, man. I really don't think Turok 3 is well done in comparison to other similar shooters. Of course, my distaste is strengthened by my love of Turok 1 and 2 and the change didn't sit well with me. Not only that, I feel that it lost a lot of what made the first games visually impressive. The animation, modeling, and effects all took a nosedive in quality. Sure, the facial stuff is good, but while actually playing the game it feels cheap.
Yeah, you could save anywhere in Turok 2 on the PC.
The main improvements made in both games were much higher resolution textures, higher quality music, image quality and framerate (of course). Turok 1 has the same limited draw distance but Turok 2 pushes the fog out a bit further (though it's still pretty severe).
That said, in the case of Turok 1, I actually prefer the N64 version. While the PC version LOOKS better, there are a number of sound differences that pop-up. The N64 audio is dynamic and changes based on what's happening (such as going underwater). The PC version used redbook audio, which sounded great, but was not dynamic. Well, that's not entirely true, it would switch tracks as you moved into, say, caves and other such areas, but it was missing some of the music changes. Also, there are missing sound effects.
Turok 2 is really much better on PC, however, and is really the only way to play the game.
Sure, but that doesn't mean N64 was somehow producing faster framerates than powerful PC hardware at the time.
No, I can deal with 30 fps as long as it's stable. Constant dips below 30, however, ruin my enjoyment of just about any game.
Some "hi-res" PSX games:
Soul Blade
Dead or Alive
Tekken 1
Tekken 2
Tekken 3
Tobal 2
iS - internal Section
Ridge Racer High-Spec
Little Big Adventure
Ganbare Goemon 98
Wipeout 3
Ghost in the Shell
OK, so perhaps N64 matches or exceeds that number, but the main point is that all of them run at smooth framerates. Most are 60 fps while the couple that aren't at least run at a solid 30. Now I realize these are less ambitious games but I think it was a smart design to limit the hi-res mode to games in which there is performance to spare. The hi-res mode used in N64 games typically killed performance to the point where it was nothing more than a novelty.
As for Saturn, well, just a few fighters come to mind. I suppose N64 wins that one.
No. The Dual Shock design is one of my favorite controllers ever made and it is completely suitable for just about every game type you could imagine.
Nope. I know that, at least, Smash Bros also operated at 60 fps. I'm sure there were others as well.
Power Stranger
Banned
Haha Smash Bros 64 was not 60 fps. It was like 10._
It's the exact same thing about 360 & ps3. 360 can handle more 60 fps & handle a smoother fps in general to the ps3.
Canis lupus
Member
Yeeahhh, that's definitely an issue. I've tried to keep them reasonably organized but it's not easy.Those cables behind.
That's why I don't have the 32x installed, actually. Too many bricks!
AdventureRacing
Member
I don't think halo was the first FPS to sell big numbers. I said it was the game that led to FPS becoming the dominant genre on home consoles and i standby that.
Goldeneye and perfect dark were a huge step forward for FPS on consoles but they didn't lead to the same influx of shooters as halo did imo.
Dat TV. All those consoles and the whole sound system on that old tv, for shame
.For shame? That monitor was chosen specifically for that setup. Using RGB connections for the consoles produces an image quality very much the same as an arcade monitor. Perfect for retro gaming.Dat TV. All those consoles and the whole sound system on that old tv, for shame
Here's my setup for modern gaming. Using a Pioneer Kuro Elite as the main display.
D.Lo
Member
Niether did Halo. The Xbox was a distant second place console, and I doubt many other shooters apart from Halo broke even a million sold. Shooters were certainly not the dominant genre on the landslide generation winner PS2 (GTA and Devil May Cry Clones and RPGs were all well above shooters), and I doubt too many shooters sold over a million on PS2 either, maybe Killzone and Socom and a few others?
It was this generation that the shooter became the dominant genre (for USA dudebros at least - Mario Kart Wii, Mario Kart DS, NSMB, NSMB Wii, Wii Sports, Wii Sports Resort, Wii Play, Wii Fit, Nintendogs, and Brain Training all outsold every shooter worldwide this generation last time I checked) and COD4 led to the influx. In fact, the top 5 selling shooters of all time, and highest selling games of all time in the US (I remember reading it in a Pachter thread) are the last five COD games. Halo became semi-irrelevant once the COD took over.
So in terms of shooters on consoles, Goldeneye and the N64 were the clear originators of console success for the genre, COD4 led to the tidal wave on the HD Twins, and Halo was a game of medium significance whose importance is overestimated due to a massive marketing effort by Microsoft.
Yep, looks awesome, I had a similar setup until I had to downsize my apartment. Looooove Saturn, SNES and Mega Drive via RGB. N64 is crap via RGB though, it needs a mod and the picture is dark and terrible even then (though I've heard you can 'amplify' the signal somehow...)
EDIT: Holy crap there's a really good N64 RGB mod now http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/nintendo/ntsc_nintendo_64_rgb_new.htm
Now I have to do this!
AdventureRacing
Member
Why do you think sony bothered trying to make a game like killzone specifically as a halo killer? Also FPS were huge this gen from the get go. COD4 was the game that hit it huge but there were plenty of FPS coming out before that.
If goldeneye and perfect dark were the ones that led to the boom it would have been seen last gen or the one before. If COD4 was responsible for it we wouldn't have seen so many coming out before that (and companies like sony wouldn't have been pushing them so desperately like with killzone 2 and resistance).
Also the big driver behind FPS on consoles is online MP and halo 2 is the one that really got the ball rolling there (obviously way behind PC's though).
I was kidding
.
D.Lo
Member
True it wasn't of no importance. And Halo 2 was the first big online shooter on consoles. But once again, it just makes no sense to me that it could possibly be considered more important than Goldeneye.
But I think a big reason shooters weren't as big in the '128 bit' gen was that the PS2 only had two controller ports. If it did shooters could have thrived, but as it was GC and XB became the local multiplayer consoles by default. I have an interesting theory about that - The PS1/N64 sales split was basically repeated in the next gen, except that the N64's slice of the market was split between the GCN and XB. The N64 was the 'Multiplayer shooters and Nintendo games' console, and Nintendo lost half of that to MS, while Sony basically cruised on same as before. All the xbox achieved for its 4 billion dollar loss was to split second place. Of course for some reason Sony was threatened by a company who they'd just outsold 6:1 and were baited down a graphical arms race that has led to consoles still not being at decent prices at the near-close of the generation. Nice one Ken.
A Black Falcon
Member
No, I don't think so. That doesn't look like much over the Dreamcast, and the PC could certainly do DC-level graphics by '99 or '00.
I simply can't agree, man. I really don't think Turok 3 is well done in comparison to other similar shooters. Of course, my distaste is strengthened by my love of Turok 1 and 2 and the change didn't sit well with me. Not only that, I feel that it lost a lot of what made the first games visually impressive. The animation, modeling, and effects all took a nosedive in quality. Sure, the facial stuff is good, but while actually playing the game it feels cheap.[/quote]
You need to play N64 Turok 2 and then say that again... Turok 3 is a far better game. Linear, yes, but far better. Also, I think the graphics and animation are fine. I like that it runs at a better framerate than the second game; if it has a few less effects or something in the name of not running quite so slowly, that's okay. The areas are well designed and complex, with plenty of challenge and interesting areas and events. It feels different from the first two, sure, but not worse. It's just as good overall.
Well that explains it, you're not comparing the N64 games. They didn't make a PC version of Turok 3, so I don't think it's entirely fair to compare PC Turok 2 to N64 Turok 3... compare the versions on the same platform.
Also, if PC Turok 2 adds save anywhere, it does sound like it might actually be a playable version of the game.
As if all PC gamers always have the most powerful hardware at all times?
I can deal with 20fps as long as its stable, but I'd rather see a stable 20-something than 30-something with regular drops to half that. Drops are annoying, yes.
As I said the N64 has a good 50+ medium or high res games, so it definitely exceeds that number. And I'd say that the impact on performance in N64 high-res games depends on the game. In some games high res mode's framerate is just fine, but in others it's slow. You'd need to look at each game individually there, can't make a broad judgement.
Yeah.
Except ones where you want to use a good controller for the game.
Yeah, I'm sure that there are some other 60fps N64 games. I don't know what they are, though. Don't ask me to be able to discern framerates in such detail...
DonMigs85
Member
To my eyes, it seems to affect the sharpness of the textures more than the actual edges.
Same goes for Episode 1 Racer.
No, Episode 1 Racer was a clear increase in resolution. It's very sharp, just like Rogue Squadron.
Also, if you keep in the Expansion Pak and set the game to run in low resolution, it increases the framerate.
50+ games? Really? Do you have a list. As far as I know, these are the games on N64 using higher resolution modes. I'm not sure what you mean by medium res, however, as nearly all games were either 320x240 or 640x480.
Can you add more games to this list?
Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness
Hybrid Heaven
Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine
Perfect Dark
Resident Evil 2
Star Wars Episode I - Battle for Naboo
Star Wars Episode I - Racer
Star Wars Rogue Squadron
Turok 2: Seeds of Evil
Vigilante 8: 2nd Offense
World Driver Championship
Perfect Dark
I speak only for myself. I do always have PC hardware that is at least in the top 20%. I try to stay on the high-end.
Back in 99 I was rocking dual Voodoo 2 cards in addition to a GeForce256.
KojiKnight
Member
*sees some SNES on the top shelf, like fine liquor and nods approvingly*
Yeah, I know what he means by that, but what resolution are we actually talking.
Those other examples you gave do not qualify them as "medium res".
Yeah I don't know of any N64 games that supported medium res, didn't arcade games require special monitors that sync in 24-25 kHz? Which according to my Googling is 512x384 and 496x384 in Sega games. I don't think N64 was capable of output in anything other than 15 kHz.
Well, on home consoles, displaying such resolutions simply resulted in 480i mode being used.
Still, I don't know of any N64 games that used such resolution.
A Black Falcon
Member
Why do you think all games were 320x240 or 640x480? That is not true. For instance, what about games that run in forced-letterboxed high res? Excitebike 64, for example, in its high res mode. That may be "640x480", but it's got big black bars on the top and bottom. Top Gear Overdrive is another interesting one -- without the expansion pack, you can choose full-screen low res, or letterboxed higher res. It's one of the only N64 games with a higher res option that doesn't require the expansion pak. With the expansion pak, you also can choose full-screen higher res. I'm not sure if it's 640x480. Top Gear Rally 2 and Top Gear Hyper-Bike also have high-res options, though they don't have that no-expansion-pack letterboxed hi-res mode that Overdrive has. Duke Nukem: Zero Hour also has both Medium and High resolution options with the expansion pack, and Low without. Etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N64_Expansion_Pak#Expansion_Pak
There's a list of most games that support the Expansion Pak. Most use it for an optional higher-resolution mode, and there are 59 games on the list. That list is not complete, though, and is missing games such as Stunt Racer 64 which do support it, so at least 60 US-released titles support it. I haven't found a list with everything; this is as complete as I've seen (one other site's list does have Stunt Racer 64, but only has 54 total games listed, so it's also incomplete). The list notes some titles that do not use the expansion pak to increase the resolution, such as Rush 2049 or Zelda MM (those games use it for other things), but I'm not certain about games that require the expansion pack for 3-4 player multiplayer, such as Gauntlet Legends, Hydro Thunder, and Stunt Racer 64. Do they just use it for that, or do they use it for other things in single player too? I'd think they do. I do know that many of the titles which don't have any notes there use the expansion pak for an optional high-res mode. Shadow Man, Roadsters, Aidyn Chronicles, and plenty more are examples of that.
The N64DD hardware and all N64DD games also require the expansion pak. I don't know if any 64DD games or software run in higher resolution; it seems entirely possible. They are also not on that list on Wikipedia, and don't usually show up on lists of Expansion Pak games, but they DO all require it, because the 64DD itself does. I don't know if any of the 70-80 Japanese-exclusive cartridge games support the Expansion Pak. Can't find any information on that.
Yeah, NBA Courtside and Re-Volt are examples of Medium res games. I mention several more above that either have it as an option, or have a letterboxed-only high res mode, which effectively is a medium resolution as far as the game window is concerned.
Eh, as I personally recall, PS1 games looked better because the N64 texture bus was so bottlenecked that it basically defeated the purpose of having such (then) impressive hardware in a console. PS1 took a more practical appraoch, and despite being low res, to me, it usually had games with a better overall presentation due to more storage.
People will fight about this forever, but the personal wish on behalf of Nintendo to shoot their own console in the foot by demanding a cartridge be used over a CD-ROM is one of the dumbest decisions I've ever seen a video game company make. They knowingly bottlenecked their own console, invalidating much of the R&D put into developing the tech put into it, because it couldn't even reach its fullest potential.
People will fight about this forever, but the personal wish on behalf of Nintendo to shoot their own console in the foot by demanding a cartridge be used over a CD-ROM is one of the dumbest decisions I've ever seen a video game company make. They knowingly bottlenecked their own console, invalidating much of the R&D put into developing the tech put into it, because it couldn't even reach its fullest potential.
A Black Falcon
Member
I didn't know it supports it... the expansion pak doesn't appear on the box, and the game's never on lists of games that support it either. That would be interesting, does it actually do something?
A Black Falcon
Member
I don't know if it's at all accurate, but see this: http://s9.zetaboards.com/Nintendo_64_Forever/topic/420599/1/
That would make 61 known US-released titles with Expansion Pak support, if true.
That would make 61 known US-released titles with Expansion Pak support, if true.
A Black Falcon
Member
Many? Which ones? I think it's fewer than you think.
what?. What Nintendo system uses analog audio?
That sounds like a challenge. I'll find out for myself and get back to you.
The N64 was clearly more powerful than the PS1. How much more powerful? I don't know. But one of the most impressive N64 games is for sure Perfect Dark. The game was developed by RareWare and released in the year 2000. I played the game again this weekend and recorded a video.
Part 1: http://youtu.be/dn46dUNAv8Q
Part 2: http://youtu.be/zK8gT9MhoRo
Part 1 shows some Carrington Institute gameplay and the start of a mission (Carrington villa). Part 2 shows the remaining mission started in part 1. The videos are a bit darker than the game actually is.
Playing the game again I noticed that it was so ahead of its time back then. Even today it is one the best shooter games when ignoring the technical side.
Part 1: http://youtu.be/dn46dUNAv8Q
Part 2: http://youtu.be/zK8gT9MhoRo
Part 1 shows some Carrington Institute gameplay and the start of a mission (Carrington villa). Part 2 shows the remaining mission started in part 1. The videos are a bit darker than the game actually is.
Playing the game again I noticed that it was so ahead of its time back then. Even today it is one the best shooter games when ignoring the technical side.
So, what are all the systems you got there? This is what I see:
Top shelf: SNES, Super Famicom, PS2
Second shelf: Gamecube, Panasonic 3DO, Sega Genesis, N64, DON'T KNOW
Bottom shelf: Dreamcast, DON'T KNOW, DON'T KNOW, XBOX, PS1??
I can't seem to identify three of them, and I think the last one on the bottom right is a PS1.
Jake Tower
Banned
IDed them for you.
LittleJohnny
Banned
Ummm, the only thing? lol, that's like saying the 360 is not much more powerful than Xbox except better image quality thanks to higher res textures, paralax mapping and HDR lighting
Ummm, the only thing? lol, that's like saying the 360 is not much more powerful than Xbox except better image quality thanks to higher res textures, paralax mapping and HDR lighting
Don't add shit to my post.
And several PS1 games use gourad shading. Also, learn to read plz.LittleJohnny
Banned
Don't add shit to my post.
And several PS2 games used bump mapping, amirite? Gouraud shading required a lot more processing power than flat shading which is why the N64 used it a lot more, it's an advantage nonetheless, but trilinear filtering is probably the most important aspect of why N64 games looked superior.
Games like Conker and Banjo even use multi-layer texturing, something you will not see on any PS1 game. The point is the impact on these effects such as texture filtering is quite huge for image quality and you're dismissing it as not being a big deal lol.
Shadow of the BEAST
Banned
yea it might have been if the image output wasnt shit, the textures wasnt shit and the resolution wasnt shit.
and thats the problem. Everything just looked blurry as hell.
and thats the problem. Everything just looked blurry as hell.
Stop acting like you know what you are talking about.
AndrewDean84xX
Banned
For the most part, the N64 had much better looking titles, when comparing games in the same genres. The Playstation did have some lookers though.
I was messing around with my 64 again yesterday and one of the things that stood out to me was how poor the texture filtering can actually look up close. It's still much better than what the PSX could produce but 3D accelerator cards for the PC could do much better. It becomes very jittery and messy at close proximity in many games.
This is what I'm talking about.
This is what I'm talking about.