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How to Invest for Retirement

clav

Member
I honestly don't know anything about the company or much about SIMPLE IRAs either. I am simply going under the assumption that they function similar to a 401k and 403b.

That said, the company really isn't important (unless they have stupidly high maintenance fees), the funds that the company offers is important.

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52084

Its rather old, but you should apparently watch out for high load fees on the funds.

I did a search on BogleHeads, and yeah, the fees appear to be insane.

I don't even think it's worth it.

Should I even go for the match? I really want to avoid a situation like this since I already know quite a bit about investing.

edit: Worth the match, but I really don't like someone else managing the funds.
 

Piecake

Member
I did a search on BogleHeads, and yeah, the fees appear to be insane.

I don't even think it's worth it.

Should I even go for the match? I really want to avoid a situation like this since I already know quite a bit about investing.

edit: Worth the match, but I really don't like someone else managing the funds.

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=130047

You might find that thread useful.

Also, do you mean that some manager actually invests your money into the funds of his choice? That sounds terrible.
 

muu

Member
Companies Squeeze 401K Plans From Facebook to JPMorgan



We have a severe retirement crisis on our hands. 55-65 year olds who have a 401k only have 120k in it (if you include people who don't, its 12k). And companies are taking action to reduce their contributions which can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to employees. All for the sake of more profit and a higher stock price.

Depressing stuff.

I wonder if we will get to the point where 401ks are basically an expensive IRA because companies stopped matching. At that point, I would hope that congress drastically increase the contribution rate for IRAs

The thing about matches is that because they require the employee to stay in the company for x years before they're vested into your account, and in this day and age of no company or employee loyalty you're lucky if you manage to get in on them. First company I worked for out of college they laid me off at 4yr 11months, their 401k match had a 5yr vesting period.

As for the folks with only 120K in their 401k, too many people ignore the suggestion to put more money into it while you're young. Talking to the younger guys in my company you can tell that's not a priority, and these are engineers making decent dough.

I honestly don't know anything about the company or much about SIMPLE IRAs either. I am simply going under the assumption that they function similar to a 401k and 403b.

That said, the company really isn't important (unless they have stupidly high maintenance fees), the funds that the company offers is important.

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52084

Its rather old, but you should apparently watch out for high load fees on the funds.

holy crap, 3-5% in fees?! And here I was, thinking my life sucked because the best I could get from my current 401K is a 0.73% fee. Funds from previous jobs have been funneled to investor class index funds at Fidelity and the 0.1% in fees have spoiled me...
 

clav

Member
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=130047

You might find that thread useful.

Also, do you mean that some manager actually invests your money into the funds of his choice? That sounds terrible.

Yeah.

Meh.

Maybe that just means I need to find another job.

...and I thought the Target Retirement Fund fee was too high at 0.18%.

What are your thoughts PieCake on just ditching Target Retirement fund and just investing in Total Stock Market?
 

Javaman

Member
The thing about matches is that because they require the employee to stay in the company for x years before they're vested into your account, and in this day and age of no company or employee loyalty you're lucky if you manage to get in on them. First company I worked for out of college they laid me off at 4yr 11months, their 401k match had a 5yr vesting period.

As for the folks with only 120K in their 401k, too many people ignore the suggestion to put more money into it while you're young. Talking to the younger guys in my company you can tell that's not a priority, and these are engineers making decent dough.



holy crap, 3-5% in fees?! And here I was, thinking my life sucked because the best I could get from my current 401K is a 0.73% fee. Funds from previous jobs have been funneled to investor class index funds at Fidelity and the 0.1% in fees have spoiled me...

They didn't vest it at 20% annually? That's really dirty.
 
Hey guys,

I'm looking to open an IRA, because my employer doesn't have a retirement option.

As a 23 yr old, where's the first place to start looking?
 
A SIMPLE ira is an low cost easy to administer plan very small employers set up . For the employer, they garner a tax advantage for contributing to a plan on your behalf. This can be defined based on one of two scenarios. 1) they can match no more than 3% of your comp but and not exceed annual limit or 2) a 2% non elective contribution regardless if you make a contribution or not. Annual limit was $12,000 for 2013.

Second question: Amerirpise. I am not a fan. Why? Fundamentally, they are an insurance company. The company began when American Express wanted to get into the industry years ago on the advice of Warren Buffet (who also pushed H&R Block to get into the industry with same line of thinking). To integrate, they started off on the insurance side and built from there. Read up on Ameriprise and Riversource. Amerirpise holds proprietory mutual funds called, you guessed it, riversource funds. They overlap like a mofo. What this means is a combination ofndifferent funds in a portfolio will constitute the same type of stock across the board. We call this overlap. Ameriprise is awful at this. Even by active fund standards, said funds are out priced.

I would start looking elsewhere or suggest to your employer than he/she does too.



Are you married? How much do you make jointly or single (give ball park, no need for specifics)? Is your employer a small business? Are you W2 or 1099?

W2, and around 40-50K(dont want to give a hard number). Im a single dude and my employer is tiny, 7-8 employees.
 

.GqueB.

Banned
Question: I like to save up money so I can buy things cash and not have to worry about credit card bills. There's a lot of waiting involved in this method. So I typically save roughly $200-300 per paycheck depending on what's going on in my life at the time.

Would it make sense to use that money to invest in index funds or should I split it somehow and do both? Curious how easy it is to dip into just in case of emergency (this may be a dumb question but I know fuck all about this stuff).
 

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
So via my company I think I have just a typical 401k through Vanguard. Reading the OP makes some sense, but is it saying to do the 401k up to the level the company will match and then do Index stuff? Also looking at the linked pages for Vanguard Index stuff I don't quite get it, do you buy it like stocks? I see one of them was at like $46, do you just buy a bunch?

I am decent at finance stuff but horrible at all the retirement stuff. Right now I contribute the bare minimum and thus after 3 years I don't even have $10k saved up yet, but it's something at least. I need to raise it, I'm just not sure what the best option is.
 

Piecake

Member
Question: I like to save up money so I can buy things cash and not have to worry about credit card bills. There's a lot of waiting involved in this method. So I typically save roughly $200-300 per paycheck depending on what's going on in my life at the time.

Would it make sense to use that money to invest in index funds or should I split it somehow and do both? Curious how easy it is to dip into just in case of emergency (this may be a dumb question but I know fuck all about this stuff).

Well, if you have those index funds in a retirement vehicle like an IRA or a 401k then it is hard to get that money out and you will be penalized for doing it. You should be using these vehicles to save for retirement because they will save you a lot of money on taxes.

I would first save enough money to have 3-6 months worth of expenses in the bank. That is very important because if something unexpectedly happens you do not want to be forced to sell funds to live because you could be forced to sell it at a loss. Thats not good.

After that, figure out your budget. Determine how much you spend a month, then stick to those figures in the future. Your surplus can be put towards your retirement (you might need to make cuts to your budget to get a surplus).

For retirement, I recommend sticking Index funds and sticking them in IRAs and 401ks and never taking that money out. You can find the details in the OP.

So via my company I think I have just a typical 401k through Vanguard. Reading the OP makes some sense, but is it saying to do the 401k up to the level the company will match and then do Index stuff? Also looking at the linked pages for Vanguard Index stuff I don't quite get it, do you buy it like stocks? I see one of them was at like $46, do you just buy a bunch?

I am decent at finance stuff but horrible at all the retirement stuff. Right now I contribute the bare minimum and thus after 3 years I don't even have $10k saved up yet, but it's something at least. I need to raise it, I'm just not sure what the best option is.

If your companies 401k is run by Vanguard, then you likely have index funds offered in your 401k. Basically, if you see funds like Total Stock Market, Total International Market, Total Bond Market, the SP 500, and extended market index fund then those are index funds. You can confirm it by looking at the description and looking at the expense ratio. If its below .2% expense ratio then it is an index fund.

You don't buy mutual funds like stocks. You buy however much you want. Say you want to invest 3k. You simply buy 3k of that mutual fund. The price just determines whether your mutual fund goes up or down in value. You buy ETFs like stock though. They are a bit more annoying to work with, but they do have advantages, the main one being no fund minimum besides the stock price.

If you want to keep things really simple and your 401k has good index funds, you could simply increase your contributions to your 401k and those funds. Be warned though, that your 401k probably has higher management fees than an IRA. To be sure, check it out for yourself. If you need advice on what funds are good in your 401k, post them here and I or someone else will help you out.

The other option is to open an IRA. I personally like the Roth the best because its a hedge against uncertainty, but traditional is fine. IRAs are nice because you have complete freedom to invest in whatever you want and if you go to the right place and meet some requirements, online brokers will waive account fees (i know vanguard does this). To open an IRA, just go to an online broker like Vanguard, fidelity, etc and open an account. After that, open up an IRA there and start buying index funds and sticking those into your IRA.
 

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
If your companies 401k is run by Vanguard, then you likely have index funds offered in your 401k. Basically, if you see funds like Total Stock Market, Total International Market, Total Bond Market, the SP 500, and extended market index fund then those are index funds. You can confirm it by looking at the description and looking at the expense ratio. If its below .2% expense ratio then it is an index fund.

You don't buy mutual funds like stocks. You buy however much you want. Say you want to invest 3k. You simply buy 3k of that mutual fund. The price just determines whether your mutual fund goes up or down in value. You buy ETFs like stock though. They are a bit more annoying to work with, but they do have advantages, the main one being no fund minimum besides the stock price.

If you want to keep things really simple and your 401k has good index funds, you could simply increase your contributions to your 401k and those funds. Be warned though, that your 401k probably has higher management fees than an IRA. To be sure, check it out for yourself. If you need advice on what funds are good in your 401k, post them here and I or someone else will help you out.

The other option is to open an IRA. I personally like the Roth the best because its a hedge against uncertainty, but traditional is fine. IRAs are nice because you have complete freedom to invest in whatever you want and if you go to the right place and meet some requirements, online brokers will waive account fees (i know vanguard does this). To open an IRA, just go to an online broker like Vanguard, fidelity, etc and open an account. After that, open up an IRA there and start buying index funds and sticking those into your IRA.

Thanks. I think part of the issue is that all I know about 401ks and retirement stuff is that I contribute what I want and the company matches up to a certain point. I need to educate myself more with the basics because right now my mind just compares a 401k to a traditional savings account, but one in which the company matches what I put away into it.

All these options inside a 401k are a bit new to me and I have no idea how to manage them or what the best way to go about saving is, I just tell the company how much of my check to put into it. :p
 

Piecake

Member
Thanks. I think part of the issue is that all I know about 401ks and retirement stuff is that I contribute what I want and the company matches up to a certain point. I need to educate myself more with the basics because right now my mind just compares a 401k to a traditional savings account, but one in which the company matches what I put away into it.

All these options inside a 401k are a bit new to me and I have no idea how to manage them or what the best way to go about saving is, I just tell the company how much of my check to put into it. :p

I would definitely check what funds they are putting you in though. You should check the examples I give in the OP, because fees can cost you A LOT of money over time. And it honestly sounds like you might be signed up for some adviser service where some dude puts your money into funds of his choice. Thats bad because the fee for that service is likely very high (over time) and the funds might be questionable.

I am sure that vanguard has a 401k site where you can check your contributions and what funds you are actually investing in. It is imperative that you do this. Once you know what you can invest in, you can make better choices and people here can give you advice on those choices.
 

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
I would definitely check what funds they are putting you in though. You should check the examples I give in the OP, because fees can cost you A LOT of money over time. And it honestly sounds like you might be signed up for some adviser service where some dude puts your money into funds of his choice. Thats bad because the fee for that service is likely very high (over time) and the funds might be questionable.

I am sure that vanguard has a 401k site where you can check your contributions and what funds you are actually investing in. It is imperative that you do this. Once you know what you can invest in, you can make better choices and people here can give you advice on those choices.

Yeah I'll log in tonight and post here to try and help me make sense of it all. Like I said I know very little about how a 401k actually works aside from me putting money in and the company matching it.
 

Piecake

Member
Yeah I'll log in tonight and post here to try and help me make sense of it all. Like I said I know very little about how a 401k actually works aside from me putting money in and the company matching it.

Its a tax-advantaged investment account that is offered by your employer. The tax advantage that you receive is that the money you put into your 401k is not taxed. The money in your 401k account also grows tax-free, meaning that you don't pay capital gains or taxes on dividends. The only time you will pay taxes on that money is when you take it out after retirement. It is taxed at your income tax rate at the time of taking it out.

This is why its beneficial. You can choose when your investments are to be taxed at your income tax rate and you do not have to pay any taxes when it is in the 401k, meaning that it grows tax free. This saves you a lot of money.

A further explanation on not being taxed immediately. Say you have 50k in taxable income. If you put 10k into a 401k, your taxable income for that year would only be 40k. Because your employer does this, that 10k contribution is on your W-2, so automatically deducted, meaning that you don't have to do anything to get the advantage. (this differs from a traditional IRA)

There are penalties for taking money out early.
 
The other GAF retirement thread actually prompted me to go look. I've got a solid 401K going, but I realized that I've been kinda sloppy with it in just putting the money into random mutual funds that seemed diverse. I'd like to clean that up and start putting my contributions into some lower fee index funds. My 401K has some options for what look to be some Vanguard index funds, but I'm having a bit of trouble deciphering what index they are trying to track and which would be the best option.

These seem to be the three:
VANG GRTH INDEX INST (VIGIX)
VANG INST INDEX PLUS (VIIIX)
VANG VAL INDEX INST (VIVIX)

From the charts that I've started to poke around with they all seem to be tracking the general market pretty closely. Not really sure what would recommend one over the others.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
The other GAF retirement thread actually prompted me to go look. I've got a solid 401K going, but I realized that I've been kinda sloppy with it in just putting the money into random mutual funds that seemed diverse. I'd like to clean that up and start putting my contributions into some lower fee index funds. My 401K has some options for what look to be some Vanguard index funds, but I'm having a bit of trouble deciphering what index they are trying to track and which would be the best option.

These seem to be the three:
VANG GRTH INDEX INST (VIGIX)
VANG INST INDEX PLUS (VIIIX)
VANG VAL INDEX INST (VIVIX)

From the charts that I've started to poke around with they all seem to be tracking the general market pretty closely. Not really sure what would recommend one over the others.

Here are links to Vanguard's pages for these funds:

VANG GRTH INDEX INST (VIGIX)
VANG INST INDEX PLUS (VIIIX)
VANG VAL INDEX INST (VIVIX)

The first is a "growth" index, the middle tracks the S&P500, and the last is a "value" index.

The S&P 500 index is good, but if you go all into that one you will be missing the small and midsized companies. So ideally you'd have another fund that includes them. (Incidentally the middle one is what my 401(k) is in as well.)

The growth index tracks the "CRSP US Large Cap Growth Index, a broadly diversified index predominantly made up of growth stocks of large U.S. companies".

The value index tracks the "CRSP US Large Cap Value Index, a broadly diversified index predominantly made up of value stocks of large U.S. companies".

Those quotes are from the prospectus' linked from the Vanguard pages. I'm not sure from those descriptions which I'd go into. If you have an index that is for mid or small cap companies, that is what I'd use. If you have an international index, I'd suggest using it as well. If you don't have those options, I'd poke around the fund compositions and pick the one that has the least overlap with the S&P500 fund and use it, with most going into the S&P500.
 

Piecake

Member
The other GAF retirement thread actually prompted me to go look. I've got a solid 401K going, but I realized that I've been kinda sloppy with it in just putting the money into random mutual funds that seemed diverse. I'd like to clean that up and start putting my contributions into some lower fee index funds. My 401K has some options for what look to be some Vanguard index funds, but I'm having a bit of trouble deciphering what index they are trying to track and which would be the best option.

These seem to be the three:
VANG GRTH INDEX INST (VIGIX)
VANG INST INDEX PLUS (VIIIX)
VANG VAL INDEX INST (VIVIX)

From the charts that I've started to poke around with they all seem to be tracking the general market pretty closely. Not really sure what would recommend one over the others.

I would probably just invest in VIIIX. That tracks the SP 500. The other two track large cap value stocks and large cap growth stocks. You will get all of those in the SP 500 fund at a slightly lower cost. Basically, VIIIX gives you more diversification at a lower cost and you wont increase your diversification by investing in the other two.

If that is all you have for index funds, you are missing out on the US small and mid cap market as well as the International market (bonds too if you are into that). You can gain exposure to those by setting up an IRA and investing in those corresponding indexes.
 
Ok, Dok.

I would suggest, specifically, a Roth IRA. You can contribute up to $5,500 a year across all IRAs you may own. If this is vanilla investing and something you are using to get q core portfolio started: go with a discount broker, open a free Roth and dump it in no more than two index funds. Some ideas for discount brokers are: Schwab, Ameritrade, Fidelity, Scottstrade, or Merrill Edge.

Alternatively, you can select to establish a direct line of business and open an IRA with a fund company . The only downside to this is that you are limited to their proprietory funds. Ideas are Vanguard, iShares, etc.

Could someone walk me through the difference between the discount brokers? I have some knowledge of financial instruments and securities, but dammit if they all sound similar in theory.

What are the fees on the proprietary funds looking like from others' experiences? I wouldn't want to dump into an index with fees eating my returns. I can barely find shit to cover 3% inflation.
 

Piecake

Member
Could someone walk me through the difference between the discount brokers? I have some knowledge of financial instruments and securities, but dammit if they all sound similar in theory.

What are the fees on the proprietary funds looking like from others' experiences? I wouldn't want to dump into an index with fees eating my returns. I can barely find shit to cover 3% inflation.

If you are planning to invest in Index funds, then I think it makes the most sense to simply go with Vanguard, Fidelity, or any other major place that offers their funds transaction free and their IRAs free as well if you meet some restrictions.

Vanguard and Fidelity's index funds are basically the cheapest in the business. Ishares, the funds that arent tied to a discount broker, are extremely cheap as well.

If you want to beat inflation, invest in stocks. There is no guaranteed return though and past performance does not mean future success. So I would caution you trying to find a fund that says will get you so and so return. No one knows. The only thing we can reasonably assume is that stocks will beat inflation fairly easily over a long period of time. If things go to shit, who knows, that might be way off.
 

fiore

Banned
I am planning to switch to a new job. I made a fidelity account with nothing on it. How do I transfer my previous jobs 401k to a roth ira account from fidelity?
 

Chris R

Member
Is it right that a full contribution to my IRA didn't increase my tax refund? I would have thought that putting money in the IRA would have increased my refund :( Also does it matter that I also have a SEP setup with my company?
 
What are the opinions on a deferred retirement option?

Apparently they seem to be geared to high earners which I am not and are somewhat risky because if the company goes under, they can go after those funds.

In this case, it is through the state by virtue if being a university employee. Seems like it wouldn't hurt to throw 50 or so bucks at it a month to go along with the pension and a separate Roth IRA.
 

Piecake

Member
What are the opinions on a deferred retirement option?

Apparently they seem to be geared to high earners which I am not and are soI mewhat risky because if the company goes under, they can go after those funds.

In this case, it is through the state by virtue if being a university employee. Seems like it wouldn't hurt to throw 50 or so bucks at it a month to go along with the pension and a separate Roth IRA.

I honestly don't know anything about deferred retirement options, but it sounds similar to company stock in that you are banking everything on the company that you are working for. If so, I think its a pretty stupid idea. Diversification is very important unless the rewards for deferred retirement is substantial and you can transfer those funds to your IRA or something after a set time while still getting the bonus
 
Need some advice. I started my first full-time job a little over three years ago, and my employer offers a 403b plan. They match up to 5% of my contribution with 100% vesting. I haven't really paid much attention to it until coming upon this thread. When I took a look at my balance, all of it is allocated to this: http://www.principal.com/InvestmentProfiles/index.faces?symbol=PTERX.

I can move my balance and future contributions to other options within my current plan. Would these index funds be in line with what the OP is suggesting:

http://www.principal.com/InvestmentProfiles/index.faces?symbol=PLFMX
http://www.principal.com/InvestmentProfiles/index.faces?symbol=PMFMX
http://www.principal.com/InvestmentProfiles/index.faces?symbol=PSSMX

Thanks in advance, GAF!
 

vehn

Member
So what's the difference between a self opened Roth IRA (that has a 5.5k yearly limit) that you invest into a index fund, and a Vanguard index fund that you open up by just transferring money to? I mean they are both making the same amount of money, both have already been taxed because it came from your bank account etc. . .
 

Husker86

Member
Need some advice. I started my first full-time job a little over three years ago, and my employer offers a 403b plan. They match up to 5% of my contribution with 100% vesting. I haven't really paid much attention to it until coming upon this thread. When I took a look at my balance, all of it is allocated to this: http://www.principal.com/InvestmentProfiles/index.faces?symbol=PTERX.

I can move my balance and future contributions to other options within my current plan. Would these index funds be in line with what the OP is suggesting:

http://www.principal.com/InvestmentProfiles/index.faces?symbol=PLFMX
http://www.principal.com/InvestmentProfiles/index.faces?symbol=PMFMX
http://www.principal.com/InvestmentProfiles/index.faces?symbol=PSSMX

Thanks in advance, GAF!

Wow...get out of that first fund immediately. The fee is way too high, and its performance compared to the market is not good.

Go with the large cap S&P500 fund if you want the least risk (of those you listed) but still decent return.

Are those the only funds available to you? Even those have an expense of 0.73% where normal S&P500 index funds are under 0.1%. Still better than what you're in now though...

edit: And you have an additional 0.25% 12b-1 fee on those funds. You definitely should just put in enough to get their max matching and put anything else in a Roth IRA or something.

So what's the difference between a self opened Roth IRA (that has a 5.5k yearly limit) that you invest into a index fund, and a Vanguard index fund that you open up by just transferring money to? I mean they are both making the same amount of money, both have already been taxed because it came from your bank account etc. . .

You can purchase the same funds/stocks in an IRA or your individual account. The difference with the Roth IRA is that any gains you make in that account will not be taxed when you withdraw during retirement. That is a huge boost.

Realized gains in your individual account will be taxed, either at capital gains rate if you've held the stock/fund for more than a year, or at your normal income tax rate if you sell before a year.
 
Wow...get out of that first fund immediately. The fee is way too high, and its performance compared to the market is not good.

Go with the large cap S&P500 fund if you want the least risk (of those you listed) but still decent return.

Are those the only funds available to you? Even those have an expense of 0.73% where normal S&P500 index funds are under 0.1%. Still better than what you're in now though...

edit: And you have an additional 0.25% 12b-1 fee on those funds. You definitely should just put in enough to get their max matching and put anything else in a Roth IRA or something.

Yeah, our options are so limited. The three I listed are the only index funds with the lowest fees on our plan, and they're not even that low! I looked up the 12b-1 fee, and it's a marketing and distribution fee on mutual funds.

I was just talking to my coworker and he agrees that our investment options within our plan are crap.

When I transfer my balance and future contributions, should I just put them all on the large cap one?
 
Guys, I want some advice on my 401K. Right now, I make around 40k a year. This is a very rough estimate. It's actually a little more than that, but I'm using a more pessimistic number.

Anyway, I live in NYC, and as you know, cost of living isn't cheap. So any advice on how much I should put into my 401K? I'm thinking 5% right now. I also have Roth IRA and other investments, but right now, I thinking about my 401K.
 

Cyan

Banned
Guys, I want some advice on my 401K. Right now, I make around 40k a year. This is a very rough estimate. It's actually a little more than that, but I'm using a more pessimistic number.

Anyway, I live in NYC, and as you know, cost of living isn't cheap. So any advice on how much I should put into my 401K? I'm thinking 5% right now. I also have Roth IRA and other investments, but right now, I thinking about my 401K.

That's not an investment question, that's a budget question.

The investment answer is "contribute to your 401k up to your employer's max match, then contribute to a Roth." The budget answer is "well, how much can you afford?" That's something you have to figure out. Do you have a budget? Do you know how much legroom you have to work with? If not, here's some advice to help start you off.
 

Piecake

Member
Yeah, our options are so limited. The three I listed are the only index funds with the lowest fees on our plan, and they're not even that low! I looked up the 12b-1 fee, and it's a marketing and distribution fee on mutual funds.

I was just talking to my coworker and he agrees that our investment options within our plan are crap.

When I transfer my balance and future contributions, should I just put them all on the large cap one?

I would probably do a

65%
25%
10%

of the 3 funds you listed

That way you cover the whole market. Thats basically a guess at the proper percentages of large, mid, small, so you might want to look those up if you want it exact

But yea, I would just invest up to the match and then open up an IRA and put an international fund (and bonds, if thats your thing) in there. Also Total US if you need to get your asset allocation right.
 

Husker86

Member
Yeah, our options are so limited. The three I listed are the only index funds with the lowest fees on our plan, and they're not even that low! I looked up the 12b-1 fee, and it's a marketing and distribution fee on mutual funds.

I was just talking to my coworker and he agrees that our investment options within our plan are crap.

When I transfer my balance and future contributions, should I just put them all on the large cap one?

That's up to you.

I personally do about 65% Large Cap and 35% Small Cap since I can deal with the risk (I'm only 27). I ignore mid cap; if I'm gonna risk it then I'm gonna risk it good!

But really, I'm not too worried about small cap risk relative to large cap. If the market goes down all of the indexes are going down.

Again, it's a personal decision, but that's just how I do it in my 403b right now. My Roth IRA is actually mostly small cap with some Tesla thrown in because I felt like it.

On the plus side, you get some decent matching so I wouldn't be too bummed. Still gonna come out ahead with free money even with those fees.
 

Piecake

Member
That's up to you.

I personally do about 65% Large Cap and 35% Small Cap since I can deal with the risk (I'm only 27). I ignore mid cap; if I'm gonna risk it then I'm gonna risk it good!

But really, I'm not too worried about small cap risk relative to large cap. If the market goes down all of the indexes are going down.

Again, it's a personal decision, but that's just how I do it in my 403b right now. My Roth IRA is actually mostly small cap with some Tesla thrown in because I felt like it.

On the plus side, you get some decent matching so I wouldn't be too bummed. Still gonna come out ahead with free money even with those fees.

While I am not a supporter of it nor do i know if its true or will be true in the future, from what I have read a small cap tilt only makes sense if its a small cap Value tilt, not a total small cap or small cap growth fund.
 

tirminyl

Member
I think I am going to start posting a lot as I want to re-allocate all my investment options. Suffice to say, I just selected investments and then never looked at it. So coming back to it, I don't understand any of it. I have 28 investment elections to choose from. I see Vanguard a lot in this thread and I have the following options:

VBTIX
VIVIX
VINIX
VBAIX
VMISX
VSIX

I guess I have some reading to do to understand what my options are and what is considered decent and or good to invest in.
 

NysGAF

Member
So GAF, I'm a middle school math teacher. If I wanted to do a lesson on finances, where do you think I should start? Are there any good educational games I could try that would teach things like how to budget, how credit works, maybe something with loans, and finally retirement planning? Like a 12 year old is going to want to learn about planning for retirement, but I'd like to try...
 

Piecake

Member
So GAF, I'm a middle school math teacher. If I wanted to do a lesson on finances, where do you think I should start? Are there any good educational games I could try that would teach things like how to budget, how credit works, maybe something with loans, and finally retirement planning? Like a 12 year old is going to want to learn about planning for retirement, but I'd like to try...

Give them 10 or so funds to choose from, have a mix of index funds and actively managed funds and tell them to build their own portfolio. Once they do that, have them calculate how much they will pay in fees over a 40 year period if they get an annual 7% return. Then have them calculate how much they will pay in fees for a portfolio made up of actively managed funds and then a portfolio of index funds.

That way they will see the magic of compound interest through return and fees and need to do some calculation

Have a class discussion on whether or not they changed their own portfolio up once they calculated the expense of an actively managed and an index portfolio. Bring up relevant data and studies that show that the odds of a actively managed fund beating a index fund, which sounds like a lesson on probability.

For Monthly budget, I would make it as real life as possible. Take the average costs for a recent college graduate - rent, loans, medical, car, etc and the average salary and create a monthly budget to see how much he can spend on food, clothing, etc. Also point out unemployment and stress that this is average. Meaning that people make less than this.

Credit Card, give them '2,000 bucks' to spend some place with a credit card then have them calculate how much that would really cost them if they just paid the monthly minimum
 

Piecake

Member
I think I am going to start posting a lot as I want to re-allocate all my investment options. Suffice to say, I just selected investments and then never looked at it. So coming back to it, I don't understand any of it. I have 28 investment elections to choose from. I see Vanguard a lot in this thread and I have the following options:

VBTIX
VIVIX
VINIX
VBAIX
VMISX
VSIX

I guess I have some reading to do to understand what my options are and what is considered decent and or good to invest in.

my philosophy is low fees, diversification, and simplicity. I think you have some access to some pretty good funds. What I would personally do is invest 70% into VINIX and 30% into VMISX. The reason for this is that the expense ratio on both is incredibly low and it invests in all Large and mid cap US stocks. You will miss out on US small caps, but that isnt a huge loss.

You should also seriously consider VBTIX since that is an excellent bond fund. I don't personally invest in bonds (will do it close to retirement), but you need to figure out for yourself if you need to take a moree conservative approach. There is nothing worse than panicking and selling. If you think you would stress, freak out, and sell during a huge market crash then you should invest more heavily in bonds.

Now, that is just what I would do on the information that youve provided. That might change if you listed the other funds, came back with other questions etc. If you are confused, I'd go through the OP and the rest of the thread as a starting point. If you have questions, just ask and I am sure someone can provide an answer.
 

Ptaaty

Member
I have 50% in small caps, 30% large cap, 20% international (varies by year, can be 30/40/30)

No bonds, started at 22 year old, 10%+5% matching. Seems to be working pretty well. I have been very aggressive since over the last 15 or so years I have paid attention, these have done so much better than any bonds over a reasonable time frame (5 years).

Small caps have seemed to be the strongest over this period as well. I plan to work another 30 so should be fine.
 

Smiley90

Stop shitting on my team. Start shitting on my finger.
I posted this in the other thread, but I figured I'll ask here and hope somebody knows:

Can someone please explain to me why the Overall return in my google portfolio differs from my gains, when I haven't made any contributions/withdrawals to/from my cash balance?

Like, (current-initial)/initial gives me the value that's listed as gains (which I think is accurate), whereas the overall return is listed as lower?



The same thing is happening for my other portfolio, there I HAVE made cash withdrawals. the Gains is obviously higher than it should be, which make sense. If I put the graph from beginning to now, the percentage that shows is "correct" as in gains - cash balance / initial (lower than gains), but the overall return is EVEN lower. So I have no idea why in both cases the overall return rate shows as so low. How is that calculated and what does it mean?
 

tirminyl

Member
hi, tirmynl,

Real quick. Do some reading. No problems there. What you want to learn is what kind of exposure any investment gives you and what risks come with it. Reading a factsheet or prospectus for fund can help you there. I woukdnt over think it. Try and give yourself a nice exposure across different areas.

Secondly, I always urge people to do this when working with one specific fund family, in this case vanguard. When you have several funds to pick from and you want to pair them together to compliment onenother and build yourself a portfolio, always always always make sure that the stocks held in one fund does not show up in heavy doses in another fund. This is called overlap. If your funds hold a certain percentage of their allocation in the same stocks, then you risk over exposing yourself in areas you didn't intend to. Make sense? In other words, the less funds have in common with one another, the better for you.

How do you do this? In your case, call a contact AT YOUR 401k administrator and ask a repabout overlap. Alternatively, you can use tools at www.Morningstar.com that will help you.

The what to invest in is the easy part, particularly when working with a single fund family. The key is in how...as in how you pair and select your funds. Sometimes less is more.

my philosophy is low fees, diversification, and simplicity. I think you have some access to some pretty good funds. What I would personally do is invest 70% into VINIX and 30% into VMISX. The reason for this is that the expense ratio on both is incredibly low and it invests in all Large and mid cap US stocks. You will miss out on US small caps, but that isnt a huge loss.

You should also seriously consider VBTIX since that is an excellent bond fund. I don't personally invest in bonds (will do it close to retirement), but you need to figure out for yourself if you need to take a moree conservative approach. There is nothing worse than panicking and selling. If you think you would stress, freak out, and sell during a huge market crash then you should invest more heavily in bonds.

Now, that is just what I would do on the information that youve provided. That might change if you listed the other funds, came back with other questions etc. If you are confused, I'd go through the OP and the rest of the thread as a starting point. If you have questions, just ask and I am sure someone can provide an answer.

Thanks for the info and I appreciate the advice. I am starting my research today and will be investigate all the investments I have access to (see below). I will also look into the overlap mentioned as well as other advice and information given in the OP (I've read) and throughout this thread. I think I will need some coffee for this endeavor.

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/pvoxx
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/ditix
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/lbndx
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/pttrx
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/vbitx
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/dodbx
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/twvlx
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/VIVIX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/VINIX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/TWCGX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/TWCIX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/TWCUX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/FAGCX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/JANSX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/JAENX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/RPMGX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/RYTRX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/GTSVX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/TWIEX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/DODFX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/JAOSX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/VBAIX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/LAFFX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/TIMVX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/VMISX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/VSISX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/ACINX
 

Piecake

Member
Thanks for the info and I appreciate the advice. I am starting my research today and will be investigate all the investments I have access to (see below). I will also look into the overlap mentioned as well as other advice and information given in the OP (I've read) and throughout this thread. I think I will need some coffee for this endeavor.

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/pvoxx
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/ditix
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/lbndx
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/pttrx
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/vbitx
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/dodbx
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/twvlx
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/VIVIX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/VINIX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/TWCGX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/TWCIX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/TWCUX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/FAGCX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/JANSX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/JAENX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/RPMGX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/RYTRX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/GTSVX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/TWIEX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/DODFX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/JAOSX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/VBAIX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/LAFFX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/TIMVX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/VMISX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/VSISX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/ACINX

Nice, you have a small cap fund

I would go

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/VINIX 65%
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/VMISX 25%
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/VSISX 10%

I didnt see VIBTIX in your list, the total bond fund, but if you have that, and you want that, keep the ratio between large-mid-small the same and simply put in the amount of bonds that you want. The ratio is a 'guess' on market cap, so if you want to track the whole market, something close to that ratio is necessary. Obviously, you don't have to do that, but if you did, you would be placing a bet on whichever cap you invest more in.

Honestly, your funds besides Vanguard kinda suck. One issue though is that you do not have an international vanguard fund. You can go about this two ways. Simply open up an IRA and invest and put a low cost total international index fund in that IRA.

The other way is to choose one of the less shitty ones in your 401k

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/JAOSX
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/DODFX

The fees arent terrible, but as you can see by the top holdings, it CLEARLY isnt an index fund. So take that for what you will. Personally, id be worried about a fund that has its top holdings in Nokia, HP, or Nintendo.

So yea, obviously I am suggesting that opening up an IRA and gettin international exposure that way is the far better option, but I can understand if you don't want to complicate the matter

I posted this in the other thread, but I figured I'll ask here and hope somebody knows:

Can someone please explain to me why the Overall return in my google portfolio differs from my gains, when I haven't made any contributions/withdrawals to/from my cash balance?

Like, (current-initial)/initial gives me the value that's listed as gains (which I think is accurate), whereas the overall return is listed as lower?



The same thing is happening for my other portfolio, there I HAVE made cash withdrawals. the Gains is obviously higher than it should be, which make sense. If I put the graph from beginning to now, the percentage that shows is "correct" as in gains - cash balance / initial (lower than gains), but the overall return is EVEN lower. So I have no idea why in both cases the overall return rate shows as so low. How is that calculated and what does it mean?

Sorry, not quite sure what is going on there
 

aaronAMV

Neo Member
Rebalance Account Automatically?

Rebalancing your account allows you to maintain the desired allocation strategy. Auto Rebalance gives you the ability to have your entire eligible account balance automatically realigned to match your investment elections.


Any thoughts on using this feature? Would there be any negative or even a substantial positive to doing this?

Thanks. Great thread.
 

Piecake

Member
Rebalance Account Automatically?

Rebalancing your account allows you to maintain the desired allocation strategy. Auto Rebalance gives you the ability to have your entire eligible account balance automatically realigned to match your investment elections.


Any thoughts on using this feature? Would there be any negative or even a substantial positive to doing this?

Thanks. Great thread.

So long as it doesnt generate transaction fees, other fees, or a taxable event then I think its probably a good idea. Personally, I do not (not quite sure why - probably my mistrust of wall street and financial institutions to stick in some hidden fee). I simply rebalance once a year
 

Gannd

Banned
That's up to you.

I personally do about 65% Large Cap and 35% Small Cap since I can deal with the risk (I'm only 27). I ignore mid cap; if I'm gonna risk it then I'm gonna risk it good!

But really, I'm not too worried about small cap risk relative to large cap. If the market goes down all of the indexes are going down.

Again, it's a personal decision, but that's just how I do it in my 403b right now. My Roth IRA is actually mostly small cap with some Tesla thrown in because I felt like it.

On the plus side, you get some decent matching so I wouldn't be too bummed. Still gonna come out ahead with free money even with those fees.


Mid cap has been an asset class that has outperformed large cap and small cap over a long period of time. Don't ignore it.
 

Gannd

Banned
Anybody else invest in individual equities?

This is the stock screen that I use:


S&P Common Stock Rank of A+, A, or A-.
Return on Equity (ROE) greater than the average S&P 500 ROE.
Debt/Equity lower than the S&P 500.
Dividend yield greater than the S&P 500.
Consensus Investment Opinion indicates Buy or Neutral as well as the likelihood that the dividend will remain the same or be increased
The ratio of the last 12 months’ free cash flow to dividends must be greater than 1.0.


This is the core of my equity strategy. It is a large cap value strategy but it works really well. I use ETFs for international exposure and by buying a small cap value/mid cap growth you'll capture the upside of the market with less beta. I'm really big on risk (I'm an accountant) and for each unit of risk I want to make sure the return is there. (Sharpe ratio)
 

Gannd

Banned
So long as it doesnt generate transaction fees, other fees, or a taxable event then I think its probably a good idea. Personally, I do not (not quite sure why - probably my mistrust of wall street and financial institutions to stick in some hidden fee). I simply rebalance once a year

If you're following a tactical model, rebalancing can be done very cheaply. Especially if you're using a discount broker to handle the transactions. Many times if you're using ETFs, places will offer you some no-fee ETFs (meaning no trading costs) and if that's what you're primarily using it doesn't hurt to set it up to auto rebalance to your preferred asset allocation much more frequently than yearly. I think it makes more sense to look at your over all allocation yearly (or semi-annual) and rebalance more frequently.
 
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