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HTC unveils Vive Pre, its second-generation VR system

I

ichtyander

Member
Quoting myself from the other thread. I kinda doubt it's doing major computations, scanning and creating 3D models of the environment, which would be great but I feel it's something that'll evolve and become cheaper and more accessible down the road.

ichtyander said:
There was an on stage Leap Motion demo showcasing something similar to this passthrough solution, showing a "ghostly" overlay of the infrared passthrough camera of the next dev version of Leap Motion. I'm guessing Vive's solution is something very similar, but maybe a bit more visible.

Fake edit:
Here's the video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3e69sspVR0

It's basically the same thing they're using for showing your actual hands in VR using Leap Motion, but with extended range and usability.

leap_motion_7rwo32.gif


leap_motion_8rnpam.gif


https://youtu.be/nNktcqj9MW4?t=1346

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T52C4CbDWK4

It does actually look very Tron-like, because of the similarities between the monochromatic infrared camera and the black and white filming technique of the old Tron movie.

Ever since I saw that Leap Motion demo I thought it was a very elegant way of keeping various degrees of the real world around you for safety or comfort reasons. It will probably break immersion, but if you want to be aware of your cat, other people, objects, keyboard, beverages or whatever around you, there's potential here to make this approach very useful.
Click to expand...
 
Alx

Alx

Member
Dreamwriter said:
The hands-on I read sounded like it shows 3D models of things in front of the user, not a video feed at all. Like, you only see the chair in front of you, not the whole room, unless you enter the full-room mode which disables the VR feed. And you don't see features on people or keyboard keys, but you see the shape of the keyboard. It's definitely not a passthrough, if it was it wouldn't make everything look like Tron.
Click to expand...

The thing is a 3D model isn't necessary, since you can have the real thing. And you can get that "Tron effect" by simple image manipulation, like contour extraction/enhancing, fake transparencies etc.
And if they were going for a real 3D reconstruction, then a depth camera or a stereo pair like Leap motion would make much more sense, and would be cheaper in the end since it would require less processing power.

*edit : thinking about it, maybe it is possible to have a reliable 3D reconstruction, if the mono camera is actually looking for the emitted patterns of the lighthouse (I forgot again the details of how it works, but it is a rotating plane/line plus a global synchronization trigger, right ?)
In that case you would be able to have a decent depth map of your environment indeed, and filter objects by depth. You may have a few occultation issues though.
 
A

Alexlf

Member
Alx said:
The selective part doesn't need computer vision. Because the headset knows exactly where it is thanks to the lighthouse, it can select when to display video information, and when not to. Like I said the way they describe the feature, they only replaced the 3D grid they were using by the video feed.
Of course I'd need to see the output of their system to be more positive about it, but there's no need for 3D reconstruction of the environment for the task they're describing.
I did see the claim that "third parties could do 3D recodntruction and do AR stuff" in one of the interviews, but I'd be cautious about such claims, while structure from motion is indeed possible, it's not entirely reliable for precise models.
Click to expand...

It's not showing the entire feed when you reach an arbitrary boundary, it's selectively showing 3d models of objects that get close enough to the user to be a problem. That's what I'm getting out of the hands on reviews.
 
Alx

Alx

Member
Yeah as I edited in my last message I can see now how they could reconstruct the 3D scene using an IR camera and the lighthouse..
. But it seems overkill for the Chaperon feature when a regular passthrough would be enough, especially since in their demo they manually toggle to this mode and disable the VR rendering. You also have to wonder what kind of compromise on image quality it implies, and there's the occlusion issue I mentioned.
I think the Leap Motion solution described above seems more promising, since it can provide both depth information and decent image quality for integration of real elements in the VR scene.
 
V

viveks86

Member
tuxfool said:
Two ways of dealing with it, use highly binned panels or use more complex display drivers so that you can use more panels. These corrections and the need for them are fairly well documented, but I presume the requirements of VR require the solution to be more stringent.

e: in case you're wondering what an uncompensated panel looks like:

hOrQ2G3.png
Click to expand...

Thanks!
 
V

Veal

Member
Skulduggery said:
Goddam, they better still have something up their sleeve other than this. This is not a breakthrough, there was always going to be a camera. There's gotta be something else, please Valve.
Click to expand...
What? Where are you getting that from? None of the other VR set ups have this. They can very well call this a breakthrough since NO ONE ELSE seemed to think of this in all the time the Rifts have existed.
 
B

Bsigg12

Member
Alx said:
Yeah as I edited in my last message I can see now how they could reconstruct the 3D scene using an IR camera and the lighthouse..
. But it seems overkill for the Chaperon feature when a regular passthrough would be enough, especially since in their demo they manually toggle to this mode and disable the VR rendering. You also have to wonder what kind of compromise on image quality it implies, and there's the occlusion issue I mentioned.
I think the Leap Motion solution described above seems more promising, since it can provide both depth information and decent image quality for integration of real elements in the VR scene.
Click to expand...

Paathrough without a stereoscopic camera is very disorienting. Not being able to see depth really destroys your ability to account for things around you.
 
A

Askherserenity

Member
So this is not the same headset they are releasing this year? Why the fuck even announce the second gen version way before their first headset even launches?

This makes no sense.
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
jaxapollo said:
Honestly though, why would anyone choose Oculus over this? This has the controllers, 3D Room Tracking, front facing camera all day one for probably? The same price as Oculus. Seems like Facebook may have rushed Oculus out the door to compete with Vive before it was ready. That's not a good sign for Oculus.

still preordering both
Click to expand...

Vive has more stuff so their cost to produce will be higher. Also HTC will need to sell and make a profit as a hardware company - oculus may be more willing to take much lower/no profits to grow the user base backed by Facebook and also they are pushing their own software platform which would bring in revenue.
 
E

exmachina64

Banned
Askherserenity said:
So this is not the same headset they are releasing this year? Why the fuck even announce the second gen version way before their first headset even launches?

This makes no sense.
Click to expand...

The first gen version was the first public dev kit, given away to a small number of developers. This is the second gen dev kit and the same quantity limitations will apply.
 
ArtHands

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Askherserenity said:
So this is not the same headset they are releasing this year? Why the fuck even announce the second gen version way before their first headset even launches?

This makes no sense.
Click to expand...

The title is actually wrong.

This Vive Pre is simply just the second version of a Vive developer kit. Its only meant for the developers.

The consumer version in April will be the improved, consumer version of this Vive Pre.
 
Alx

Alx

Member
Bsigg12 said:
Paathrough without a stereoscopic camera is very disorienting. Not being able to see depth really destroys your ability to account for things around you.
Click to expand...

Nah, people overstate the importance of stereovision in our daily life. Close an eye and walk around, or use a tablet in video mode in front of your face, you won't trip nor fall. Our brain is very good at interpreting flat images as 3D scenes (which is why we're fine with our movies in 2D).
 
ArtHands

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
To be fair to HTC, i don't think they were the one who call it "2nd gen". Its by the ignorant author who wrote that article.
 
A

Askherserenity

Member
ArtHands said:
The title is actually wrong.

This Vive Pre is simply just the second version of a Vive developer kit. Its only meant for the developers.

The consumer version in April will be the improved, consumer version of this Vive Pre.
Click to expand...

Got it. Now it makes more sense.

Thank you!
 
Haunted

Haunted

Member
I can't wait for the first generation of all these VR devices that looks and feels acceptable to wear. So, like 2022. Maybe.

And then for the first generation of them to be affordable. So, probably never.
 
B

Bsigg12

Member
Alx said:
Nah, people overstate the importance of stereovision in our daily life. Close an eye and walk around, or use a tablet in video mode in front of your face, you won't trip nor fall. Our brain is very good at interpreting flat images as 3D scenes (which is why we're fine with our movies in 2D).
Click to expand...

Have you tried a GearVR yet? There is a profound effect when your eyes have no other clues to the surroundings like your proposed test would leave. Our brains are good at seeing depth when there are visual clues, like shadowing and the different refractions of light. A camera mounted on a headset at this time cannot capture that and then reproduce the same clues with the visual clarity that you would have with the headset off.
 
S

Skulduggery

Banned
Veal said:
What? Where are you getting that from? None of the other VR set ups have this. They can very well call this a breakthrough since NO ONE ELSE seemed to think of this in all the time the Rifts have existed.
Click to expand...

Well the camera itself is not new. The first round of dev kits for the Vive had holes in the middle of the headset, and HTC confirmed those would be for (at least 1) camera.

I was pretty peeved after checking the Uploadvr article, I didn't fully grasp what the new Chaperone system does. But after watching the Tom's hands-on, I was much more impressed. Still needs more, though! It needs a true depth sensor on the HMD, and then it will be perfect.
 
S

Sinistral

Member
HTC does have the manufacturing capabilities in house for it though. A while ago, when people were speculating the Rift would be around $350ish, Valve/HTC went on to say that it would be more expensive than that. I'm paraphrasing but... it could match the Retail Rift.

Speculative breakdowns suggest that the Lighthouses can be manufactured relatively cheap as their parts are fairly common. Single manufacture of a Touch Controller as it is ambidextrous.

But I'm not going to get my hopes up. It'll still be expensive.
 
S

sun-drop

Member
amazes me how company's still get away this ...apple also big offenders here ..

so this "breakthrough" amounted to little more than stealing the pass through mode from the samsung GearVR ? and i assume it's a thing on cardboard as well no doubt .....

awesome ..
 
A

Alexlf

Member
sun-drop said:
amazes me how company's still get away this ...apple also big offenders here ..

so this "breakthrough" amounted to little more than stealing the pass through mode from the samsung GearVR ? and i assume it's a thing on cardboard as well no doubt .....

awesome ..
Click to expand...

This is extremely different from a simple passthrough mode, and if you're implying that GearVR was the first to do passthrough that's also pretty funny.
 
U

UrbanRats

Member
sun-drop said:
amazes me how company's still get away this ...apple also big offenders here ..

so this "breakthrough" amounted to little more than stealing the pass through mode from the samsung GearVR ? and i assume it's a thing on cardboard as well no doubt .....

awesome ..
Click to expand...
"stealing".. c'mon now.
 
P

pastrami

Member
Sinistral said:
HTC does have the manufacturing capabilities in house for it though. A while ago, when people were speculating the Rift would be around $350ish, Valve/HTC went on to say that it would be more expensive than that. I'm paraphrasing but... it could match the Retail Rift.

Speculative breakdowns suggest that the Lighthouses can be manufactured relatively cheap as their parts are fairly common. Single manufacture of a Touch Controller as it is ambidextrous.

But I'm not going to get my hopes up. It'll still be expensive.
Click to expand...

On the flip side, HTC needs to make money. Oculus has their own store and are publishing VR games. I'm sure they are working on other experiences to monetize as well. With Valve handling the software side of things, HTC will have to make their money purely on the hardware. And I can't really see Valve subsidizing HTC to lower costs.
 
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