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I don't think Resident Evil needs to 'return to it's roots'

EekTheKat

Member
IMHO, keep Mercenaries as the multiplayer action oriented Resident Evil experience, while making the campaign experience the "survival horror" game that people want.
 

Silky

Banned
Revelations was awful. The fact that so many people clamored for a game more along those lines for a mainline followup boggled my mind. Revelations was a portable RE6. It was just as all-over-the-place as that game was. Way too many different playable characters, too many ideas with no restraint. With all the back and forth scenario switching, the game felt like it had no cohesiveness. The ship was somewhat competently designed and it did provide a lot of what I was looking for as far as design/flow-wise in an RE game, but when you fragmented the ship segments with linear/scripted ass scenarios where you played as one of the new boner-looking characters, it all fell apart for me. Don't even get me started on the Chris segments where you fought endless hordes of Hunters in some stupid ocean satellite base or whatever the fuck that game was about.

Resident Evil, for me, is a "run" game. RE was about surviving with limited resources and learning a layout/flow of an established/interesting space so the player could cut corners/establish better routes. RE4 was a campaign game with pseudo-limited inventory, unlimited saving, checkpoints, and no end-game ranking/results screen, etc. Despite being packed with unique content/scenarios/bosses, etc. it's way too long and way too campaign-y. It's great for what it was going for and every game following it has tried to capture its essence/flow, but not only have they failed, they've further established themselves as something ever more un-Resident Evil-like than RE4.

Fair enough
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
I know it's never gonna happen, but I still think it would be nice if we could get something like the older adventure games but with more modern controls. It'd be really cool to go back to thoroughly investigating open environments and maintaining resources, but have those environments be lovingly rendered in modern graphics.

The problem is, nobody really does that kind of game anymore other than indies. The closest we're gonna get is SOMA or Routine.

RE5 dlc in the mansion was superb however I don't want the heavy action just for the sake of having a few more sales and attracting the bro crowd.

That I think was a taste of what's possible. I don't know about anyone else though, but going through that same layout with RE5's camera and controls made that environment feel really small. I feel like if they went back to survival horror with newer controls the environments would have to be a little bit bigger, or the camera would have to be a little bit closer to the player character.
 

ishibear

is a goddamn bear
I agree to an extent. Some aspects of Rev and 6 do make me feel that RE can still be survival horror, but I'd prefer if they either split the series into two or just stick with one genre.

I don't believe survival horror and action can be blended perfectly. They're so different. One involves thinking of preservation and avoiding enemies while the other is more concerned with going in strong and beating the odds.

Rev and 6 turned out so convoluted because they tried to cater to classic and new fans but did nothing but stress all of us out more.

I'd love another SH title but if it's too much to pull off then don't try it. It'll just frustrate everyone again.

Tl;Dr I'll take whatever we can get as long as it's fun.
 

Teknoman

Member
The community/playerbase Capcom sells it's fighting games too is still a noticeably small amount of people. This is the norm of fighting games. Sure it's successful within it's own ecosystem but those sales alone won't continue the flow of FG rreleases from capcom. They'd do well with catering to those external audiences, though not as radical as other franchises did.

Capcom's going to follow where the money is, and RE6 was one of their best selling games. Would personally prefer something along the lines of Revelations than 6 though.

Well if it sold that well, yet still got average to low review scores / player & fan opinions, i'd expect they would at least take a look at what people didnt like. Personally I think they tried to do too much, and the game would have been just fine with Leon and Helena. Maybe keep Jake and Sherry for the sake of using other characters/reintroducing Wesker's bloodline, but Ada really served no purpose.

Actually Jake's character would have been better served as being another one of the A. Wesker children, instead of being his "son" or whatever.

One thing 6 did get right was the atmosphere in certain parts. Leon's graveyard sequence was pretty cool. They really did need better quality control though...and it really stunk that RE5 looked better than 6.
 

-MD-

Member
I just want a game that has RE 2002's atmosphere and overall quality. They've come nowhere near thus far.

Everyone saying Revelations is the direction they need to take, really? It's a better game than 5 and 6 but it's still just that over the top goofy arcadey Resident Evil we've come to expect.

Whatever happened to item/ammo management? Finding some ammo in the earlier RE titles felt awesome because it was more limited, now you're constantly carrying around 3+ large weapons and 4+ different types of grenades with ammo every 5 feet like ever other game these days.
 
Both of these are parts of RE:R. Well, most of RE:R takes place in the same area. There's a few neat little side missions that involve other characters in other places but unlike RE6 they take about 5-20 minutes each and don't overstay their welcome.

The main character is in the same place for almost the entire game.

Maybe I should go back to it. I played for a couple of hours and wasn't really feeling it. Do you get more freedom to explore later on? Because even the bit I played on the boat (which I presume is the central location), I was just going along a linear path shooting boring enemies who didn't react at all to being shot.
 

Freeman

Banned
That is completely a butthurt fan perception of sales that gets spread around for whatever reason. Action RE is bigger than puzzle/adventure RE. RE5 especially.
Not if you account for RE1 sales on all platforms (not only PS1, the number Capcom started using since they thought it would look good to say RE5 sold more), something Capcom doesn't go around showing.

Yeah, 10 to 15 years ago and every consecutive classic RE sold worse than the one before.

RE2 and 3 sold really well, 3 sold less but it was a game with far less investment released one year after 2. CV released for Dreamcast and wasn't a numbered entry, Remake and 0 were kept exclusive to GC. Judging by those game would be like judging the current sales by Revelations.
 

Astral Dog

Member
Resident Evil 4, along with REmake are my favorite games in the series, so i agree somewhat, but i think that when they made RE5 they tried to copy what made RE4 so succesful, without the good design or atmosphere, and along with RE6, the games lost their identity, Resident Evil doesnt need 4 campaigns, QTE every five minutes, explosions every 15, cover,or look almost like a military shooter, my problem is that they are trying to make a different game, copying what is more popular instead of making their own thing and they seem to have a thing with the characters saying "this is like the mansión or raccon city, but bigger" some of this may be nitpicking, but still Capcom needs to make some changes if they want Resident Evil to be their most acclaimed ip again
 

Teknoman

Member
Maybe I should go back to it. I played for a couple of hours and wasn't really feeling it. Do you get more freedom to explore later on? Because even the bit I played on the boat (which I presume is the central location), I was just going along a linear path shooting boring enemies who didn't react at all to being shot.

That was another issue with Revelations taking the RE4-5 viewpoint, T-abyss enemies (while a cool idea/virus name) never seemed to react to shots. Also the weapon noises all sounded ridiculously weak.
 
I also miss the extreme scarcity of resources. Making the decision to try to conserve ammo and run past an enemy is something that's gone from modern RE games, as the more enemies you kill, the more resources you get - there's no reason not to obliterate everything in your path.

But this wasn't ever really in old RE either. I played through REmake for the first time in about a year, with Chris, and it's pretty easy to just kill everything in your path. I haven't played Zero or Code Veronica, so those may be different, but (aside from the very beginning of REmake), the only time I've ever felt like ammo was especially scarce in RE was in RE1's arrange mode.

I think just end resident evil or just start calling it something different moving foward.

Why?
 

Silky

Banned
Not if you account for RE1 sales on all platforms (not only PS1, the number Capcom started using since they thought it would look good to say RE5 sold more), something Capcom doesn't go around showing.

Doesn't capcom display it's sales records publicly? You say that as if they're ashamed of how low the first one sold
 

Teknoman

Member
Resident Evil 4, along with REmake are my favorite games in the series, so i agree somewhat, but i thinkwhen they made RE5 they tried to copy what made RE4 so succesful, without the good design or atmosphere, and along with RE6, losing their identity, Resident Evil doesnt need 4 campaigns, QTE every five minutes, explosions , every 15, cover,or look like a military shooter, my problem is that they are trying to make a different game, copying what is more popular instead of making their own thing and they seem to have a thing of the characters saying "this is like the mansión or raccon city, but bigger" some this may be nitpicking, but still Capcom needs to make some changes if they want Resident Evil to be their most acclaimed ip again

Exactly. RE6 had a good base imo, especially considering how people are somewhat hyped from the first reveal trailer, but tried to do too much with one game, making it seem somewhat disjointed with no semblance of knowing what direction to go.

What Capcom could do, is what they did long ago. Create a new survival horror series game to see what fans like if they dont feel like experimenting much with a "AAA franchise". Try a different era or something. I refuse to believe that Capcom is creatively bankrupt to the point that they cant create a new franchise with a different style to test the waters, maybe finding a new profitable series along the way.

I mean they made Dragon's Dogma, and that seemed to take off...after some rough bumps.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
That was another issue with Revelations taking the RE4-5 viewpoint, T-abyss enemies (while a cool idea/virus name) never seemed to react to shots. Also the weapon noises all sounded ridiculously weak.

Nah they have tells. You're absolutely right about the sound effects though, they suck for giving that impact. They absolutely do react to shots especially if you apply daze effects to the weapons or hit them in their weak points.
 
But this wasn't ever really in old RE either. I played through REmake for the first time in about a year, with Chris, and it's pretty easy to just kill everything in your path. I haven't played Zero or Code Veronica, so those may be different, but (aside from the very beginning of REmake), the only time I've ever felt like ammo was especially scarce in RE was in RE1's arrange mode.



Why?

What's the point of radically changing a franchise and calling it the same thing? It can hurt the whole franchise and run it into the ground
 

Freeman

Banned
Doesn't capcom display it's sales records publicly? You say that as if they're ashamed of how low the first one sold
The numbers they show are arranged in a way they only show PS sales and even separate the sales of different version of their games. They use to go around trowing very different numbers in the past.

You can manipulate numbers to show what you want without necessarily faking anything, happens all the time everywhere.
 
The action, over-the-top direction wouldn't be so bad if they designed the game well around those elements and not only meeting the craziness half-way. Resident Evil 6 felt like several different projects within each of the campaigns being mashed together. Animation and the player's move sets were rather incredible, but everything else for the most part didn't come close in quality or compatibility.
 

Enlil

Member
Evil Within might not be the game you want it to be...

That may be true, and it might not even have puzzles and finding keys etc. but it looks nothing like re 5 and 6 where you start blasting and shooting. that for me that is not horror. I also dont like extreme horror. RE:R horror is perfect. And I am not only talking about scary parts, but things like atmosphere, sounds etc can make a game scary as well. Those are things I am seeing in the Evil Within which are very important for me.
 
I'm cool with them trying new things but don't try to pass it off as the same spooky Resident Evil of yesteryear when it's clearly a heavy action game now.
 

dab0ne

Member
I do but only because I feel like Resident Evil is starting to fade away into obscurity. It's becoming a lot like the other TPS games out there and has lost most of its identity.
 
Games are meant to evolve

Sorry I just come from the time where all these great franchises made their first mark ages ago.. Imagine Quake 7 was coming out? Quake is my all time favorite FPS but do I want Quake 7? No.. To me Resident evil was in trouble after 3 then 4 really made it interesting again and to me 5 was a good play through but just not memorable or worth really talking to anyone about it. I was just disappointed with the end boss. Resident evil 6 well I really didn't like that one at all.. it's playable and i see whats good about it. Just making more spin offs would be good, in 5 years i could see them getting platinum to make one. haha.
 
But this wasn't ever really in old RE either. I played through REmake for the first time in about a year, with Chris, and it's pretty easy to just kill everything in your path. I haven't played Zero or Code Veronica, so those may be different, but (aside from the very beginning of REmake), the only time I've ever felt like ammo was especially scarce in RE was in RE1's arrange mode.

Easy mode or hard mode? From what I remember, the remake had two difficulties - the easier mode was a fair bit easier than the original, and the hard mode was a fair bit harder. Although I was fairly young when I played the original Resi, so I'm still open to the possibility of me being a lot worse at games back then than I am now!
 
What's the point of radically changing a franchise and calling it the same thing? It can hurt the whole franchise and run it into the ground

More casual money. The old RE titles (REmake especially) are games with mutlilayered and difficult game design, which was too challenging for the bigger mainstream so they changed it into a linear shooter (no idea what you gotta smoke to call the older titles the restricted ones, lol). And it worked. I mean, RE5 might be utter shit, but it sadly sold incredibly.

Games are meant to evolve

They didn't evolve RE, they've just changed it into an inferior genre. One of the RE4 prototypes has shown that they could have kept it a survival horror game, but still introduce the same camera/control overhaul. It's funny how some of the prototype plans still shine through and how tacked on they felt (you are fighting on some huge battlefield, but behind that one door you'll all of a sudden find empty corridors with creepy music - you also never encounter regenerators in a same location as the ordinary zombies)
 

Nemmy

Member
TL;DR at the bottom - the OP asked for discussion and I ended up producing a wall of text, apologies.

If "the roots" of Resident Evil are bad camera, tank controls and clunky combat, then no, it should not return to those. I love the old Resident Evil games (even though I only got into the series a couple years ago - the classic games have a great oldschool charm about them despite their age), but to release a game like this today would be ridiculous. REmake was a great reimagining of RE1, sure, but somehow I always felt that its beautiful graphics only made the mechanics feel more outdated. And let's not forget how slowly the series progressed, and how its formula could not be evolved in a meaningful manner anymore.

Resident Evil 4 was a work of genius in how it took what was good in old-timey RE and spin-kicked it into the future. I don't get the claims that it "ruined" the series - it saved it from fading into obscurity. It took the series' staples like item management, ammo conservation and tense, atmospheric environments and reintroduced them to actually great combat and camera while also removing tedium and upping the pace.

Since then, new Resident Evils (I'm talking about numbered ones, Revelations is still on my Steam wishlist as of now) built upon what RE4 introduced, but abandoned what it kept from the classic games. And they added co-op, which I personally see as the core of the problem with modern RE. Imagine how different RE2 would have felt if Ada sticked around for the entirety of Leon's campaign, RE3 if Carlos stayed with Jill througout the whole game, or RE4 with constant fire support from Luis. I'm not saying co-op is a bad thing in itself or that there's no place for it in horror games, but the way it is implemented in Resident Evil games, they simply cannot have the lonely, hostile feel of the old titles.

And now I think the problem is that Resident Evil is a series that has been around for so long that it has no identity of its own. There were plenty of opinions on the web how "RE6 is not a true Resident Evil", but what is a true Resident Evil anymore? Half the numbered titles were over the top, action-oriented with over the shoulder camera, another half were fixed cam, survival horror heavy. Looking at RE history I'd say explosions are as much of "RE DNA" as jumpscares, and roundhouse kicks are as much "core RE" as ammo conservation. Those games have evolved into something so different than what they began as that I don't think their further evolution should be decided by what they once were or "should be".

My point is, and I'm probably making it terribly, is that Resident Evil needs to simply return to being good games. RE4 was one of the best games ever released BECAUSE it took a step away from the series' roots and a leap into the future of gaming itself, and had an actual identity of its own. RE7 could turn out fine taking another step away from what RE once was, but it needs its own identity and clear direction, at the very least.

Now, this may not be a popular opinion, but I felt RE6 had a great potential with the scares - the parts of the game with Rasklapanjes (or whatever those indestructible things were called) I found quite intense. In the last mission of Jake's campaign, having to split up and explore different parts of the lab while they chased both players was a pretty good idea. I wouldn't mind seeing the series go in the direction of RE6 done right - smaller in scale, but more polished, with level design less corridor-based, but actually requiring exploration. If it needs to have co-op, then it should separate the partners as much as possible, so that seeing a friendly face will be a moment of relief and not the norm. If it is to keep RE6's great combat, it should balance it out with limited ammo and threatening enemy designs that force the players to be on their toes despite being all agile and powerful.

TL;DR
Rather than "returning to the roots" RE should return to being polished and well-designed games, and actually evolve the way it did with RE4. Take what was good about past entries, redo the rest. Co-op needs to be revamped if it is to stay (as long as we assume RE is to be a survival horror and not pure action). Action angle is fine, but needs fine-tuning.
All this is obviously wishful thinking on my part.
 
More casual money. The old RE titles (REmake especially) are games with mutlilayered and difficult game design, which was too challenging for the bigger mainstream so they changed it into a linear shooter (no idea what you gotta smoke to call the older titles the restricted ones, lol). And it worked. I mean, RE5 might be utter shit, but it sadly sold incredibly.



They didn't evolve RE, they've just changed it into an inferior genre. One of the RE4 prototypes has shown that they could have kept it a survival horror game, but still introduce the same camera/control overhaul. It's funny how some of the prototype plans still shine through and how tacked on they felt (you are fighting on some huge battlefield, but behind that one door you'll all of a sudden find empty corridors with creepy music - you also never encounter regenerators in a same location as the ordinary zombies)

RE 5 may have sold so good because it followed up to one of the greatest games at the time.
 

MickeyPhree

Member
Just got a crazy idea recently, what if Resident Evil 7 is a open world horror game?

Imagine being in a city, overrun with zombies and all sorts of infected stuff, and you're given a simple goal but you have figure out the best way to traverse the environment. Better yet, in the outskirts of the city is a huge forest, a big mansion, and some sort of hidden research facility. Solving puzzles in a open world environment could be awesome too, tons of tools to complete the puzzle, but you gotta figure out how to use those tools correctly.

Shit, a character switching mechanic ala GTAV would be fantastic as well. Different movesets, strengths, weaknesses. You switch to one character and find out they used most of the ammo and items in the inventory, making the player search for more supplies.

For as long as I can remember, this is the type of game I have always wanted.
 

Mecha

Member
RE 5 may have sold so good because it followed up to one of the greatest games at the time.

So you're saying 5 sold 4 million more copies than RE4 because people liked RE4? I guess that also explains why RE6 is the third best selling Capcom game.
 

Silky

Banned
TL;DR
Rather than "returning to the roots" RE should return to being polished and well-designed games, and actually evolve the way it did with RE4. Take what was good about past entries, redo the rest. Co-op needs to be revamped if it is to stay (as long as we assume RE is to be a survival horror and not pure action). Action angle is fine, but needs fine-tuning.
All this is obviously wishful thinking on my part.

I like this mentality
 
They really should be making both genres in my opinion. But Capcom is a public company, and they are now searching purely for the quickest buck they can make rather than rationally assessing their portfolio of games.

I would have purchased sequels to both RE4 and Resident Evil Standard. Instead, they bastardized RE4...and created Revelations, which, was actually a pretty good mixture of standard / action based Resident Evil.
 
Doesn't it just need to be scary? Seriously I've just read 2 pages of discussion about mechanics past and present, story discussion, Etc and not one of you mentions that the games should be scary? Isn't this the horror genre?
 

RetroStu

Banned
I don't think Resident Evil needs to go back to RE 1-3 style (although i wouldn't be against it) but i'd prefer them to back to RE4 style where you had a good mixture of action set pieces and puzzles and slow bits.
RE6 was a much better game than the reviews suggest imo but it wasn't really Resident Evil and it was more of a Gears clone.
 

Silky

Banned
Doesn't it just need to be scary? Seriously I've just read 2 pages of discussion about mechanics past and present, story discussion, Etc and not one of you mentions that the games should be scary? Isn't this the horror genre?

What is your definition of 'scary'?
 
So you're saying 5 sold 4 million more copies than RE4 because people liked RE4? I guess that also explains why RE6 is the third best selling Capcom game.

I can't explain why I don't like resident evil 6.. just because it's not resident evil?

Also resident evil 2 came out on less platforms and sold almost as good as re6.. and how many gold special editions are there of 5 and 6? Re-releases.. Probably lots of copies sitting in game stores of 6.. They will never be able to bring the hype levels of RE 2 back if you were into games at that time you might get what I am saying.
 

Silky

Banned
I can't explain why I don't like resident evil 6.. just because it's not resident evil?

Also resident evil 2 came out on less platforms and sold almost as good as re6.. and how many gold special editions are there of 5 and 6? Re-releases.. Probably lots of copies sitting in game stores of 6.. They will never be able to bring the hype levels of RE 2 back if you were into games at that time you might get what I am saying.

There hasn't been a single re-release of RE6 yet as far as I know. RE5 just has RE and RE Gold.

Do we have to be 'into games' into to understand what you're talking about?
 

Teknoman

Member
Doesn't it just need to be scary? Seriously I've just read 2 pages of discussion about mechanics past and present, story discussion, Etc and not one of you mentions that the games should be scary? Isn't this the horror genre?

That goes hand in hand with atmosphere, which people have been noting in this thread.
 
5 wasn't bad, but the # of genuinely scary moments can be counted on one hand. There's the section in the caves where you take turns carrying the lamp, the section where you're in the circular village and the enemies seem neverending, the part in the underground caves where you get separated, and the part where you infiltrate the Lickers lab for the first time and have to escape. Those were the best moments of the game. Conversely the boss fight against Wesker almost ruined all of that for me.

So you're right; Capcom can keep the modern design template and make it work, but they need to create genuine, frightening scenarios as well. As of 5 (haven't played 6) it's not that the mechanics are bad (even co-op worked pretty good, and the item limit for both players was a smart restriction), it's that they had mediocre scenario writers. Hire someone up to Mikami's level (and/or whoever wrote the scenarios for the first few games) for RE7 and marry that w/ the good aspects of 4/5 and you're golden.
 
Zombi U is the best "Resident Evil" game since RE2.

You never lose the sense of helplessness despite your weapons, just like in RE1/2. Again, like RE1/2, zombies are best avoided, ammo is scarce and the atmosphere drips with tension.

And you know what else, with a graphical reskin, Zombi U would also make an amazing "Alien" game.

But yeah, Zombi U is the only game since RE1/2 that gave me a similar vibe when playing. Check it out old school RE fans.
 

jonezer4

Member
It needs to return to not sucking.

Whether that means more survival horror and less action is debatable, but that fact that it's strayed way too far away from anything resembling a solid, good, cohesive experience is not.

5 was a concerning misstep, that could have easily been relieved by a solid sixth entry, but unfortunately, 6 took everything bad from 5 and made it worse.
 
As someone who misses the old RE games... I actually agree with you.

I don't think RE needs to go back to its roots either. I think that it needs to evolve into something better.

In the process of making it a better action game, they lost some of what made the original games scary and tense. They have to go back to the drawing board and find out how to strike a balance between action, mood and tension. You need action that isn't as over the top and trigger happy as it is now nor as limited as it was back then. You need a thick atmosphere, with familiar yet scary environments and fucked up situations and characters (that don't feel like a parody).

Resident Evil works better when it's somewhat closer to reality instead of going full retard. The mansion in RE1 is scary because it reminds you of an actual house, just like yours. Racoon City is scary because it's a city devastated by a terrible virus. It's a familiar place turned into a nightmare. The characters in RE2 work in a similar way. Birkin is just a father that gradually becomes something grotesque (as are his intentions). His wife just wants to protect her family. The chief is batshit insane. Both main characters are just regular humans that can't punch giant boulders. RE4 wasn't as scary due to going too much over the top with the action and silliness, but it still had some tense moments and the village at the beginning was scary as you just didn't know what was going on.

It's not that hard. Just grab something from the real world, like getting lost in a village, and twist it until it becomes nightmare fuel. Keep the characters and situations a little closer to reality to avoid jumping the shark. Don't go into soap opera territory. Nothing kills tension like a global military organization of super spies that fight giant monsters with tanks. More being alone and helpless and less reporting back to headquarters. Keep the incidents small, dark and isolated. Introduce some new twists here and there to keep things interesting. Keep the tension and the scary mood and no one will care if your character can move around a little more to avoid getting killed.

Maybe it needs a reboot for that, but I would be ok with that.
 

Keihart

Member
I feel old RE tried to emulate the feeling of old zombie movies , mixing suspense with horror, now they seem to be triying to be like the RE movies, as over the top as they can be an nothing more. If it's true that there are a lot of new mechanics in RE6 i don't find them to be particularly good at anything, they don't make a good action game nor a good survival game. I love platinum action games and the controls in RE6 are simply a joke, it's not that they are difficult controls, they are clumsy and unfocused.

Do they need to go back to their roots? I don't think that's the problem now, Capcom is way too worried with fashion and big sales to probably find a focus that'll make me interested again, they have completely burned me with,5 and 6, 6 being the biggest offender. They are completely out of touch just as Square is with lighting. So for all i care they can stick with over the top action as i'm not going back unless they make a true new survival horror game, what game is that , i really don't know.

Maybe i'm just not their demographic anymore, since i find Code Veronica to be a much better game than RE4.

And yes, i did not enjoyed RE6 one bit.
 

Teknoman

Member
You know, that Darkside chronicles original scenario in the jungle could have made a decent RE, same with RE Degeneration (the airport scenario).

the only thing i take from this thread is people enjoyed games more when they were children

No, you have people playing early RE series games for the first time in some of GAFs Retro game threads, and even those experiencing RE4 for the first time in the HD edition thread, and they express how great the games are...that they've been missing out.

Its like a good movie. If it was good when it released, it should still be able to be enjoyed by newcomers, regardless of age. I didnt see the first Alien movie until sometime last year, and guess what? It was awesome. Same with The Thing.

Quality lasts.
 
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