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I love how items and resources have real value in Zelda: BotW

Neiteio

Member
Back in 2012, I made a thread on how to fix Zelda. Among my humble requests: Nonlinear progression in an open world, with immediate access to core items and a skippable tutorial. Many scoffed at the idea at the time, saying they couldn’t imagine a Zelda without a rigid structure, linear progression and handholding.

Then, in January 2013, Nintendo announced the new titles would break conventions. Later that year, ALBW came out, featuring nonlinear progression with core items available from the start. It was my Game of the Year 2013, edging out TLoU.

And now, in BotW, we’re getting nonlinear progression in an open world — or “open air,” as Nintendo likes to call it. BotW recaptures a sense of exploration and discovery that hasn’t been present in the series since TWW. It even skips the tutorial! It’s like they were listening all along…


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So BotW is giving me pretty much everything I wanted, but it goes a step beyond that by addressing another issue that has plagued recent installments — and one that I wasn’t sure how to solve: Items lacking value.

Until BotW, rupees were of little worth. Why spend money buying supplies when you can find them by cutting grass and make money at the same time? And if you can find everything in the grass, there’s not much left to find in chests around the world. There are only so many Pieces of Heart they can hide before you hit the full 20 containers. Then they’re left to fill the chests with yet more rupees… Yawn.

BotW solves this beautifully by doing the unthinkable: Removing hearts and rupees from the grass. Now you refill your hearts by fishing and hunting wildlife… by foraging for fungi and insects in the underbrush… by climbing up (or chopping down) trees to reach apples… by stealing steak from enemy camps, and more. By cooking food over a campfire, you can increase its efficacy; by mixing it together in a pot, you can create dishes and elixirs that grant buffs and resistances. You can even make fires yourself by chopping up wood and mixing it with flint, then striking it with a steel weapon. Everything you find is potentially life-saving — and with some enemies dealing eight hearts of damage in one hit, this is crucial!

So that right there adds VALUE to the many food items you find. But then there are the changes with the weapons and gear, as well. The clothes you equip now have stats, and can help you survive extreme heat and cold. And the weapons you find also have stats. They even degrade and fall apart with use, forcing you to scavenge for new weapons to defend yourself. Not only does this encourage you to experiment with different approaches in battle, it gives these items real value, as well. The designers can litter the world with chests that will finally be worth opening, since there’s a chance they will contain superior weapons or gear.


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Sometimes you’ll even find rare materials, with descriptions that tell you they can be sold for rupees. Again, this makes the rupees themselves more valuable because of the effort that goes into attaining them. Presumably there will be items and upgrades that are only available via rupees — like the ability to expand your inventory so you can carry more weapons, or access to weapons with better durability. The entire in-game economy will now have meaningful utility to it.

Your ability to survive — to heal yourself and defend yourself — is now tied to items you find out in the field, items that won’t last forever. So each item is now valuable, in and of itself, and any rupees you find will likely have value getting you those items quicker. You can’t just cut grass with your everlasting sword to refill your hearts and ammo. Now you have to seek them out in the right places, with tools that break with use — which means that buying them in a store will be a useful alternative.


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These changes make me excited to explore the world of BotW. I want to uncover every chest, including those hidden in the 100+ shrines, where I imagine the best loot will be found. Exploration has always been its own reward in Zelda games… but finding stuff that will actually benefit the player is a refreshing change of pace. I hope they go all-out with the variety of stuff to find! Judging from the looks of the Great Plateau, that seems to be the case.

Oh, and before someone says, “This has been done before in other games,” that’s missing the point. Other games have done loot and open worlds, yes — but they weren’t also Zelda games. Like I’ve said before, BotW is a combination we haven’t seen before: the best of modern games, and the best of Zelda. Like ice cream and cake, or peanut butter and chocolate!


So what are your thoughts on the way Zelda: BotW is adding value to items?
 

Corpekata

Banned
It was a needed change, especially after Link Between Worlds which not only managed to make rupees feel kinda worthless, but most items in general. Was a noble experiment but took away a lot of the discovery.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Yep, great changes! I liked what they started doing with item upgrades and such in SS, and now they're just going all out with that stuff. Awesome.
 
I completely welcome this change, from watching the footage, I really feel like this was a huge step towards making the series feel fresh again.

I think it's fascinating, durability is usually a nuisance to me. Even in games like Dark Souls, I love the idea, but then when it comes down to it, it never seems to add anything to the gameplay. However, in the case with this game, it seems that they've doubled down, and made it an integral part of the gameplay. I think that's the huge difference between this and other equipment management mechanics.

I'm just really curious at how they will balance this later in the game. Will more powerful weapons have a higher durability, or will I constantly be grabbing fragile weapons the entire game? I think the former would be more rewarding, however I also don't want the mechanic to just disappear in the later half of the game.
 

Neiteio

Member
Something else worth noting is how the survival elements allow you to tailor the difficulty to your liking.

Are your enemies defeated too easily? Use weapons that are weaker or more fragile!

Are your enemies barely damaging you? Wear lighter gear, or no gear at all!

Want a real challenge? Limit yourself to only one or two meals!

You could even challenge yourself to traverse cold areas entirely with campfires, torches, and elixirs that boost your internal body temperature — no quilted clothes for real heroes!

It'll be fun to come up with special runs for subsequent playthroughs. :)
 

Aters

Member
Those rube chests is my greatest complain about ALBW.
I solved a big puzzle and what did I got? Fucking 200 ruby!

I'm not a big fan of looting in games, but yeah, Zelda made the right change.
 
everytime i let that goop lif i get more hyped for the game. the foliage and trees mixed with the art style and lighting has it as the most beautiful game i didn't know i wanted
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
They're approaching it really well. Never expected them to go this far with it.

But it's how stuff like recovery hearts, bombs, and arrows are implemented that tells it all. You're not just finding hearts, you need to forage for food. You're not finding bombs, but your item regenerates an explosive, because of course you won't just find explosives in the grass. Your finding arrows by killing an archer and grabbing his bow, or picking up the arrows shot at you.

It's great. I love that.
 

Neiteio

Member
It's honestly a refreshing set of changes that I can't wait to dive into.
I'm really looking forward to spending the first hour or so just foraging for food and cooking meals. I'm going to really gear up before each long journey. And when I go to use the food, I'm going to let Link savor it.

I love role-playing like that in games. Like when I was a kid playing OoT, I walked respectfully inside the Temple of Time. In this case, I'll be methodically outfitting Link with climate-appropriate gear, maintaining a balanced arsenal of weapons and shields, and making sure his food inventory is always full of delicious dishes and elixirs.

Stuff like that always makes me feel more connected to the character. It worked in Sleeping Dogs and it'll work here! :)
 
I think it's fascinating, durability is usually a nuisance to me. Even in games like Dark Souls, I love the idea, but then when it comes down to it, it never seems to add anything to the gameplay. However, in the case with this game, it seems that they've doubled down, and made it an integral part of the gameplay. I think that's the huge difference between this and other equipment management mechanics.

I agree, and I think a large part is simply due to making the durability feature a core mechanic by both making most equipment rather disposable while also making new equipment relatively easy to come by (going by the E3 footage). A big part comes down to how frequently you interact with the durability and item swapping mechanics. In most games with durability, item degradation happens so slowly and infrequently that an item breaking is an unexpected annoyance - often paired with games where every enemy doesn't drop a usable replacement. In BotW, it looks like it'll be such a frequently used gameplay mechanic that managing equipment just becomes another part of general item management, like keeping track of your bombs and arrows.

It looks like a fun idea and really pushes the game toward being more about exploration and survival that forces you to consider your interactions with the world rather than simply equipping your best loot and storming through it.
 
I only recently realized this but BotW is closer to a 3D LTTP than a natural evolution of a modern 3D game.

How each item changed how you viewed the game world, how each additional ability interacted with the environment in a different way and added an extra layer.

In Ocarina of time and there after, it felt as more a formality if anything, there were only very limited areas to use certain items (hookshot points come to mind) and the gradual unlocking of the world felt more controlled and less organic due to the nature of the transition from 2D to 3D giving what was once an all encompassing bird's eye view that allowed for more perspective in a limited area to a 3D one which allowed for distance and variation for areas farther away but who could miss solutions right under your feet.

BotW learns from this and chooses to change they way they approach puzzles and combat and more importantly a worldview in a way that's distinctive of a Zelda games still yet finally hits that perfect compromise of perspective with openness and multiple solutions coming into play in a physics and environment interaction playground. The evolution of the interactions with fire stand out as a clear example. Items, but more importantly key abilities that were granted by such items have actual weight in world traversal and layering that isn't done in the way of pure "gating" or how limited you feel until you get core items of the recent 3D games. It's quite astounding how they managed to make this game feel open as without giving you so much as a sword and shield but each additional item and discovery only broadens your horizons.

They looked at some of their most well received titles in recent era, games that have sold in the millions and had some of the most rabid fanbase, scrapped the ideas, and returned to the roots and evaluated what made those games engaging, then created a new set of conventions. This would be incredibly risky and unthinkable for a major company and yet here we are.

EDIT: About the whole items bloat, it's always been a peeve of mine to find that after traversing through a well hidden secret area or offshoot path, to discover that I find mysterious shells or rupees and the end, when I already have a full wallet. By replacing this with with better but limted weapons and items that could improve on your current ones (how opal sapphire and topaz each indicate and elemental upgrade) or by exchanged into rupees is quite astounding.

If all these subsystems and the "fixing" of certain incentive loops were to really occur like how I like to envision it, then I see this game being no less than a true masterpiece and a new way to play. Truly great.
 

Sn4ke_911

If I ever post something in Japanese which I don't understand, please BAN me.
So freakin hyped.

This is the game that will get me to buy an NX. Just like i bought a Wii for Twilight Princess.
 
I want this game so bad. I think this could be an Ocarina of Time 2.0 in terms of its reception.

Btw, Ocarina of Time is the greatest game of all time. For now.
 

Neiteio

Member
It'd be cool if Nintendo hides certain items so well that people don't discover them until years later. Leave them unlisted in player's guides and just let players stumble across them in time.
 

KingBroly

Banned
It'd be cool if Nintendo hides certain items so well that people don't discover them until years later. Leave them unlisted in player's guides and just let players stumble across them in time.

they probably can't do that, contractually.

This game will probably have secrets in the form of music, like in Skyward Sword and in this game's Temple of Time.
 
Great! For years I wanted rupees to be important, but we still don't how important they'll be since they haven't shown towns yet. I hope there will be weapons and clothes to buy in towns too and since you have to pay for them, they should have more durability.

Nintendo said there will be a second bomb type. I wonder if that one will be purchasable or infinite like the round ones.
 

ST2K

Member
It's pretty amazing and I'm surprised Nintendo is embracing RPG mechanics in this game so hard.

This, along with all the other things we've heard about, makes Breath of the Wild my most anticipated Zelda title ever.
 
Let's not write this cheque before we can cash it. It looked good but there's some major pitfalls I'm not convinced Nintendo won't fall into.
Item management can become cumbersome, it could be repetitive and boring to gather the resources and craft them and it could trivialize combat.

Dark Souls imo made the correct choice in shifting to an automatically replenishing but limited health potion system.
 
Heh, I was just thinking the other day how interesting it is that they tossed the 30 year old mechanic of enemies and/or grass dropping money and hearts.

It looks like it'll be a good change.
 

McNum

Member
I'd also assume fairies would have to be bought now or just extremely rare, otherwise all those healing items would be redundant.
They also seem less valuable since the game autosaves a lot and dying means reloading last autosave.

But I wonder, do we get empty bottles in this? I'll admit, I would love having a bottle of something flammable in the game.
 
Then, in January 2013, Nintendo announced the new titles would break conventions. Later that year, ALBW came out, featuring nonlinear progression with core items available from the start.

Is this confirmed for BotW? I thought ALBW was an ok game at best, mostly because of this mechanic. It killed a lot of the mystery, fun of back tracking, and allure of really searching dungeons.

Everything else I've seen looks amazing.
 
So what are your thoughts on the way Zelda: BotW is adding value to items?

I dread it, I just don't have the time for it at all. Almost made me cancel my preorder when I found out about it during this E3, but it would be the first Zelda ever I don't play and it's one of my favorite series so I'm just going to have to suffer through it. Might invest in a cheat code device to not have to waste swaths of time on item crafting, hunting for HP, cooking, breakable weapons, etc. My game time budget is sadly very limited because of a busy job and other responsibilities.
 

Neiteio

Member
Is this confirmed for BotW? I thought ALBW was an ok game at best, mostly because of this mechanic. It killed a lot of the mystery, fun of back tracking, and allure of really searching dungeons.

Everything else I've seen looks amazing.
No item rental system in BotW, although you can still tackle the game in nonlinear fashion, even going straight to the final boss if you wish (although Aonuma said this is ill-advised).
 
Part of me does wish you could only heal at campsites, Dark Souls style (or at least only cook the majority of available food, brew potions, et cetera) so moving in between campsites would also be an exercise in survival and resource management. Having zero ways to heal out in the field (except for healing potions) would add tons of tension, IMO.

Curious to see how weapon durability remains a factor after you get the Master Sword though.
 

leroidys

Member
I'll be totally honest, I'm not thrilled about them taking so many mechanics from open world games and MMOs, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now. Either way, I am extremely happy that they finally committed to trying new stuff with this entry. Zelda is a top 3 franchise for me, but it's become beyond stale.
 

Coffinhal

Member
I dread it, I just don't have the time for it at all. Almost made me cancel my preorder when I found out about it during this E3, but it would be the first Zelda ever I don't play and it's one of my favorite series so I'm just going to have to suffer through it. Might invest in a cheat code device to not have to waste swaths of time on item crafting, hunting for HP, cooking, breakable weapons, etc. My game time budget is sadly very limited because of a busy job and other responsibilities.

Just play the same game for a longer time, or just go with The Order 1886.

Glad you have time to post your opinions on gaf though, that's time you won't spend crafting and healing yourself.
 
I just wish it wouldn't pause the screen when accessing the menu or give me the description of the item i just picked for the first time.

Say there will be 1000 items, that will equal 1000 interrupted pop messages.
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
It looks to me the game is adding a lot of open world tedium: small bits of gameplay/combat interspersed with lots of traveling and foraging.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
I dread it, I just don't have the time for it at all. Almost made me cancel my preorder when I found out about it during this E3, but it would be the first Zelda ever I don't play and it's one of my favorite series so I'm just going to have to suffer through it. Might invest in a cheat code device to not have to waste swaths of time on item crafting, hunting for HP, cooking, breakable weapons, etc. My game time budget is sadly very limited because of a busy job and other responsibilities.

"Cheat code device"? Those still exist? For the Wii U/NX? How does that work, exactly?
 
This is the Zelda iv'e wanted since Zelda 2.

I think there is fgoing to be a lot of lore in this game...but it's going to be up to you to find it and piece it together.
 

GoldStarz

Member
Is this confirmed for BotW? I thought ALBW was an ok game at best, mostly because of this mechanic. It killed a lot of the mystery, fun of back tracking, and allure of really searching dungeons.

Everything else I've seen looks amazing.

BotW is confirmed non-linear to the point where if you were crazy enough, you could march right into the final boss' lair and take them on with just your pajamas and a stick, but you'd still know basically nothing about the story if you did that.
 

Simbabbad

Member
Frankly, I don't think moving from finding hearts in grass to finding mushrooms under trees is that big of a change...

Those rube chests is my greatest complain about ALBW.
I solved a big puzzle and what did I got? Fucking 200 ruby!
Except at least ALBW made money relevant.
 

Neiteio

Member
Frankly, I don't think moving from finding hearts in grass to finding mushrooms under trees is that big of a change...
It's a massive change. :)

In the grand scheme of things, you'll only find pockets of shrooms, here and there. Same goes for any food item. So if you want a particular effect, you'll have to work for it, which means those items will have value. Certainly more value than hearts in past Zeldas, which you could instantly acquire by chopping any patch of grass.
 

Neiteio

Member
BTW, I'm not sure everyone saw this, but my favorite Treehouse segment was the one on hunting and gathering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MtmDoWrV9k

I just love watching (and rewatching) this footage. It just feels satisfying to see him gathering up all the goods and inventing new dishes/elixirs.

Also... Bomb fishing! (I love that pond/lake by the Temple of Time)
 
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