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[Air Zombie Meat]

I'm with the defenders of the controls up to a certain point. But where you all lose me is when you act like people who are caused physical pain by them are wrong and need to "adapt". Surely you can understand why someone who is in pain just from playing the game would be unhappy?

 

[Ysiadmihi]

I've never seen such vehement outrage over a developer being unwilling to dumb down his game.

Any control option besides a stylus should be looked at as an absolute last resort. I'm sure Sakurai didn't want to include CPP support because people would believe it was intended to be a viable option and then have to deal with the backlash when they realized it's simply not, given the need to quickly and accurately aim and the overall speed of the game.

I hate to say it but I think some people just need to move on and realize this game wasn't designed for them.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

I've never seen such vehement outrage over a developer being unwilling to dumb down his game.

Any control option besides a stylus should be looked at as an absolute last resort. I'm sure Sakurai didn't want to include CPP support because people would believe it was intended to be a viable option and then have to deal with the backlash when they realized it's simply not, given the need to quickly and accurately aim and the overall speed of the game.

I hate to say it but I think some people just need to move on and realize this game wasn't designed for them.

Again, why is the abxy scheme in the game then?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I hate to say it but I think some people just need to move on and realize this game wasn't designed for them.

Agreed. It's sitting on my shelf where it'll remain. It sucks because it was a really fun game but I don't like struggling with poor control schemes due to a lack of a second circle pad.

 

[Maedhros]

I've never seen such vehement outrage over a developer being unwilling to dumb down his game.

Any control option besides a stylus should be looked at as an absolute last resort. I'm sure Sakurai didn't want to include CPP support because people would believe it was intended to be a viable option and then have to deal with the backlash when they realized it's simply not, given the need to quickly and accurately aim and the overall speed of the game.

I hate to say it but I think some people just need to move on and realize this game wasn't designed for them.

They didn't have to bother to implement the A, B, X, Y buttons for movement/aiming then.

 

[stuminus3]

I'm pretty sure he said dual analogue via CPP wasn't implemented because they ran out of time, guys. It's fucking hilarious that half of you are freaking out over a quote that the dude didn't actually say, while completely ignoring what he did say. No wonder you lack the skills to play his game.

 

[ColtraineGF]

So why did they offer aiming with A, B, X, Y?

Because the game was designed to fit the default control scheme of the 3DS. The ABXY scheme was already used in prior DS shooters, so they could plan for that from the start, unlike the CCP which came far in development.

It also helps to note that every game so far that got up compatibility with the CPP in a short period of time are games that were designed with a dual analog controller in mind (Ace Combat, Resident Evil, MGS, Monhun, etc.)

In any case, I won't question the technical reasons why Sora couldn't get it in on time, because it's certainly easier to get a game designed with DA in mind to work with the CCP. But there's always the possibility of patching it in later, although it would result in frustration ingame. On higher difficulties, it becomes like trying to play someone with KBM in an FPS using a console controller.

 

[Maedhros]

I'm pretty sure he said dual analogue via CPP wasn't implemented because they ran out of time, guys. It's fucking hilarious that half of you are freaking out over a quote that the dude didn't actually say, while completely ignoring what he did say. No wonder you lack the skills to play his game.

He said:


"Considering how close to the limit we pushed the 3DS during development, it's a miracle that we were even able to provide support for left-handed controls at the point of completion," Uprising director Masahiro Sakurai told me in an e-mail interview. "Providing support for independent analog control was something that was technically impossible."

I can interpret this as having no more time, sure. But considering the rest of the article, I can't understand why they did bother on implementing the ABXY buttons if the game was meant to play with a stylus.

 

[dreamer3kx]

If you have large amount of people complaining about controls something is wrong, no other way to put it.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

Again, why is the abxy scheme in the game then?

Any control option besides a stylus should be looked at as an absolute last resort. I'm sure Sakurai didn't want to include CPP support because people would believe it was intended to be a viable option and then have to deal with the backlash when they realized it's simply not, given the need to quickly and accurately aim and the overall speed of the game.

The thing is, no one is going to view ABXY for moving or aiming as viable in a game like this. However, there are plenty of people who mistakenly believe that dual analog would or should be viable and the game should be adjusted for it's implementation.

It sucks that some gamers are shut out because they refuse to play with anything but dual analog, but keeping the pace of the game for those who are willing to step outside of their safety zone makes for an overall better experience.

 

[rollingstart]

Didn't LAIR have a similar dev sentiment near launch? They eventually patched that you know.

EGM: Lair supports only motion control in-flight. Why not at least give players the option to use the analog sticks?

Julian Eggebrecht: We debated that a long time, but we didn't want to offer worse control -- and Lair does control worse and less precisely with the stick control for the air. It also destroys some of the connection to the feeling of gliding with a living creature.

yep

Don't know if people defended Lair's controls too, assuming there were even fans of that game. Kid Icarus is actually a great game marred by poor controls. It's closer to Gunvalkyrie.

 

[Maedhros]

Because the game was designed to fit the default control scheme of the 3DS. The ABXY scheme was already used in prior DS shooters, so they could plan for that from the start, unlike the CCP which came far in development.

It also helps to note that every game so far that got up compatibility with the CPP in a short period of time are games that were designed with a dual analog controller in mind (Ace Combat, Resident Evil, MGS, Monhun, etc.)

In any case, I won't question the technical reasons why Sora couldn't get it in on time, because it's certainly easier to get a game designed with DA in mind to work with the CCP. But there's always the possibility of patching it in later, although it would result in frustration ingame. On higher difficulties, it becomes like trying to play someone with KBM in an FPS using a console controller.

Not everyone cares about playing the game on higher difficults. The difficult slider is there for a reason, a reason similar to the difficult slider on TWEWY, for people to choose the difficult they want to play.

Can anyone who plays the game with ABXY point if they are having difficult to play the game on higher difficults?

 

[WrenchNinja]

No one would stop you from using touch or is asking Sakurai to nerf higher intensities.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

Can anyone who plays the game with ABXY point if they are having difficult to play the game on higher difficults?

Before I found my thumb stylus, I used ABXY to play while I was on my exercise bike. It was terrible on around 3-4 intensity.

 

[anon_mastermind]

Did you put engrish in the thread title on purpose?

 

[The Technomancer]

No one would stop you from using touch or is asking Sakurai to nerf higher intensities.

But at that point you're asking for an objectively inferior control scheme for this specific type of gameplay. Its akin to getting pissy that not every 360 game has Kinect support these days because, even though it would suck, its "more options"

 

[Nocturnowl]

So why did they offer aiming with A, B, X, Y?

huh, I figured that must have been for movement only with the stylus still used for aiming and camera control, you got me here, my apologies.
I just turned on the game to test this, feel free to put me in the stocks and pelt tomatoes at me.
I put movement on the buttons and analogue nub for aiming, feels clumsy right now and I can't see it working too well for higher difficulties but I guess it could have been an option after all.
They should have included the CCP instead of the stand, all the stand does is convince some people the game needs it be played.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

The thing is, no one is going to view ABXY for moving or aiming as viable in a game like this. However, there are plenty of people who mistakenly believe that dual analog would or should be viable and the game should be adjusted for it's implementation.

It sucks that some gamers are shut out because they refuse to play with anything but dual analog, but keeping the pace of the game for those who are willing to step outside of their safety zone makes for an overall better experience.

This is a bit of a strawman. I don't think that the gameplay should be adjusted to fit dual analogue (one guy said that until he backed down and admitted he was wrong) but I don't see the harm in providing support for it considering the abxy scheme was provided. I think there was a technical reason the support isn't there (ran out of time etc) rather than it being some purist notion about people playing the game as intended. If that was the case, abxy wouldn't exist.

 

[Neiteio]

Did you put engrish in the thread title on purpose?

You rike it a rot or just a rittle?

Nah, I kid. Everyone knows Sakurai speaks with his mind. Telepathy and shit. It's how he communicates from his impregnable moon fortress where he makes his games.

 

[WallJump]

It's a control method that requires practice. Once mastered it, it's almost perfect.

I have absolutely zero trouble with it, even with the 3D. Yeah it was difficult at first but I adjusted and I'd actually agree with Sakurai that the game wouldn't be the same with CPP. You have such an incredible degree of control with respect to time using the stylus/trackball method. The game is so much faster and more responsive. I just don't think you could get as easily out of a CPP option.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

They didn't have to bother to implement the A, B, X, Y buttons for movement/aiming then.

This really should have been the first post. Obviously the inclusion of analog aiming option didn't compromise the game; it's a shame that the option provided is N64-level prehistoric though.

 

[stuminus3]

This really should have been the first post. Obviously the inclusion of analog aiming option didn't compromise the game; it's a shame that the option provided is N64-level prehistoric though.

No, it shouldn't have been posted at all, for reasons that exist within the article posted by the OP.

 

[irishcow]

All these people talking about users who dislike the controls having trouble adapting are ridiculous.

The controls cramp the fuck out of my hands. If it hurts to play, the controls are fucked.

Does anyone consider individuals may have hand or wrist issues such as tendonitis or tenosynovitis? The waggle on the wii kills my wrists and so does this game.

It may not be an issue of adaptability but an issue of ergonomics.

 

[WrenchNinja]

But at that point you're asking for an objectively inferior control scheme for this specific type of gameplay. Its akin to getting pissy that not every 360 game has Kinect support these days because, even though it would suck, its "more options"

Theres already an objectively worse control scheme with ABXY movement. Having one thats less worse is fine by me.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

All these people talking about users who dislike the controls having trouble adapting are ridiculous.

The controls cramp the fuck out of my hands. If it hurts to play, the controls are fucked.

Does anyone consider individuals may have hand or wrist issues such as tendonitis or tenosynovitis? The waggle on the wii kills my wrists and so does this game.

It may not be an issue of adaptability but an issue of ergonomics.

Every 3DS game I play hurts my hands because the system is too small. It has nothing to do with Kid Icarus specifically.

There are grips that can help mitigate the problem. Not to mention the extra bulk of the CPP.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

The issue, it appears to me, is the design of the 3ds, not the game...at least at first. If the 3ds was more ergonomic (I was baffled by the amount of bulky attachments this system has in order to allow people to play it without pain) then the game's controls would be fine.

However, if you know the controls are so ergonomically messed up that you have to add a stupid piece of plastic, then you, the developer, should have pieced together that you made a game that isn't designed for the limitations the piece of hardware had to offer. You can't make a 360 game requiring more buttons than the controller has. You can't make a game that makes you twist your hand in ways that are bad for the player's health and were not intended for the design of the hardware no matter how you look at it. "Get use to it" is a cop out to the customer and doesn't work on an anatomical level. The people that should have gotten "get use to it" were the devs getting used to what the 3ds had to offer as a piece of ergonomic (or lack there of) hardware. Limitations are cruel, but those limitations are not to be passed to the customer (be it ergonomics or load times or frame rate, etc.) You have to deal with it if you want to make a game for that limited hardware. Figure out a way around the problem or don't make the game at all (or at least deal with and accept the consequences).

 

[Chopper]

So why did they offer aiming with A, B, X, Y?

See above.

For left-handed people to play with a stylus and without a CCP. I can see why that would be awful though.

 

[WrenchNinja]

For left-handed people to play with a stylus and without a CCP. I can see why that would be awful though.

Read that question again.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

For left-handed people to play with a stylus and without a CCP. I can see why that would be awful though.

That scheme also lets you play without a stylus at all.

 

[stuminus3]

However, if you know the controls are so ergonomically messed up that you have to add a stupid piece of plastic, then you, the developer, should have pieced together that you made a game that isn't designed for the limitations the piece of hardware had to offer. You can't make a 360 game requiring more buttons than the controller has. You can't make a game that makes you twist your hand in ways that are bad for the player's health and were not intended for the design of the hardware no matter how you look at it. "Get use to it" is a cop out to the customer and doesn't work on an anatomical level. The people that should have gotten "get use to it" were the devs getting used to what the 3ds had to offer as a piece of ergonomic (or lack there of) hardware. Limitations are cruel, but those limitations are not to be passed to the customer (be it ergonomics or load times or frame rate, etc.) You have to deal with it if you want to make a game for that limited hardware. Figure out a way around the problem or don't make the game at all (or at least deal with and accept the consequences).

You wasted your time typing all that when the actual fact of the matter is that you don't need the "stupid piece of plastic" at all. I suspect that's a Nintendo intervention, not something Sakurai had in mind.

 

[robor]

Flawed control scheme or no flawed control scheme, this thread is INSANE.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

You wasted your time typing all that when the actual fact of the matter is that you don't need the "stupid piece of plastic" at all.

They added it for a reason. They knew the issue.

In response to your edit: Does it matter who intervened or came up with the idea?

 

[stuminus3]

They added it for a reason. They knew the issue.

Who is this "they"?

Knowing Nintendo - the publisher Nintendo - it wouldn't surprise me if the stand thing only exists to appease the legal department who were concerned about the 0.000001% chance some poor bugger might have a sore wrist for a day or two.

 

[Neiteio]

Let's just all divulge our ethnicities and blame whichever group is the minority.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

Who is this "they"?

Who cares. What does that have anything to do with my points.

Knowing Nintendo - the publisher Nintendo - it wouldn't surprise me if the stand thing only exists to appease the legal department who were concerned about the 0.000001% chance some poor bugger might have a sore wrist for a day or two.

And there we go. I'm done.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Boy, I sure do love the vocal minority argument that goes totally unsubstantiated but is some how legitimate in the eyes of the one making the argument.

 

[stuminus3]

And there we go. I'm done.

Clearly.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm in complete agreement with Sakurai.

I found that the nyko recharger pack makes playing this game a lot easier on the hands since its a lot smoother in general.

 

[Neiteio]

Kid Icarus controls are the key to everlasting youth Sakurai has perfected. Guy looks about as old as he was when he invented Kirby (19, I think?).

He's doing it for your own good.

 

[SmokedMeat]

But at that point you're asking for an objectively inferior control scheme for this specific type of gameplay. Its akin to getting pissy that not every 360 game has Kinect support these days because, even though it would suck, its "more options"

In the interest of appeasing gamers who don't like the current control setup, why not a "CPP" mode, with dual analog and aim assist?

The difficulty would need to be toned down, but it would still be a fun game that could be played more comfortably for those who want it that way. Plus the ground portions would be far better, cause using a stylus to look around flat out sucks.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

Who is this "they"?

Knowing Nintendo - the publisher Nintendo - it wouldn't surprise me if the stand thing only exists to appease the legal department who were concerned about the 0.000001% chance some poor bugger might have a sore wrist for a day or two.

Yeah, I heard about that massage mitt they gave away with the Move for fear people might incur a sprain.

 

[Vinci]

Haven't played KI, but I get the distinct impression that it requires the same mental acrobatics to play that Gunvalkyrie did. And once you got Gunvalkyrie, you realized no other method would do. I wouldn't be surprised if this is similar. People bitched about Gunvalkyrie too.

 

[Version 3.0]

Who is this "they"?

Knowing Nintendo - the publisher Nintendo - it wouldn't surprise me if the stand thing only exists to appease the legal department who were concerned about the 0.000001% chance some poor bugger might have a sore wrist for a day or two.

Considering the responses in this thread alone, the odds of this game giving "some poor bugger" a sore wrist turned out to be a bit higher than that. And the stand more likely exists because Nintendo's own testers found the controls, at best, as controversial as we do.

 

[jetjevons]

Nintendo are typically brilliant at melding intuitive, pick up and play controls with instantly accessible and fun game mechanics that, on further investigation, offer remarkable layers of depth for the dedicated. These games transcend the casual/hardcore divide and sell to all.

On first inspection I've got to say KI:U doesn't seem to fit that bill, and IMO a lot of that has to do with the controls.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

What was the initial reaction to the N64 controller? The Gamecube controller? The Wii?

 

[-MB-]

What was the initial reaction to the N64 controller? The Gamecube controller? The Wii?

None of those caused me any troubles, nor does the 3ds design itself for most games.
Fos Kid icarus it causes issues for me, the controls as is are just not suited for me in a high octane action title like this.
I played this well over 10 hours and still can't get used to them, it's the reason I haven't progressed far enough in the game and basically made me quit it altogether.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

What was the initial reaction to the N64 controller? The Gamecube controller? The Wii?

The Gamecube controller and Wii controller are both definitely comfortable, no matter how you feel about their functionality.

 

[QisTopTier]

Screw it, I say the game was ment to be played with a mouse and keyboard.

 

[Raptomex]

What was the initial reaction to the N64 controller? The Gamecube controller? The Wii?

The GCN controller is definitely one of my favorite controllers. It's comfortable and well made. It's going to be hard playing the new Smash Bros. without it.

 

[rpmurphy]

Screw it, I say the game was ment to be played with a mouse and keyboard.

The best control method would be trackball plus mouse.