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In Defense of Final Fantasy XII
- Thread starter Megalosaro
- Start date
cosign
Nymphae
Banned
Pretty much. Great game, though kind of forgettable for me personally. I had a blast with it but I can barely remember the intricacies of the plot, or half of the cast. It was a refreshing take on FF.
As of now, its highest peak of the series imo.
Despite the fact that it isn't my favorite, I think what this game accomplished should be the guiding light for the series.
A truly massive game.Fantastic , harmonious art direction, excellent mature writing and deep battle system.
So yeah , moving forward , FF should strive to perfect what FFXII started.
Despite the fact that it isn't my favorite, I think what this game accomplished should be the guiding light for the series.
A truly massive game.Fantastic , harmonious art direction, excellent mature writing and deep battle system.
So yeah , moving forward , FF should strive to perfect what FFXII started.
thatoldlimey
Member
To date this remains my absolute favorite Final Fantasy game, I hope they do a HD remaster of this as I would buy it in a heartbeat.
Crazyorloco
Member
I would say XIII was the start of the decline. FF XII is one of my favorite final fantasy games. I love the combat system.
I bought FFX HD just so Square would be encouraged to release XII! I love XII but I'm not the biggest fan of X.
Elor_Nocudee
Member
FFXII is one of the top 3 entries in the franchise for sure, the sad thing about it is some japanese fans didn't like the gameplay as much as everyone else so SE changed to that nonsense system found in FFXIII.
I used to be a vocal hater of this game. Distance and hindsight has tempered my hate to indifference. For me it just was a noticable step back to some of the highs of FFX and FFX-2. I understand that some of my complaints were addressed in the international version, but I played the NA original release.
-Skill/job system was too customizable and free form which means optimizing a chosen party of 3 that can do everything works better than creating 7 specialists and mixing and matching as the system demaned. Much prefer FFX balance of customization freedom and specializing in the sphere grid.
-Don't think gambits added much to the game unless you wanted to make a game within a game of them and program the best AI imaginable. I didn't so it didn't appeal to me.
-Comparing Vaan to Nick in Gatsby is ignoring the fact that the Great Gatsby is a 100x better written than FF12. In the end he is a damn camera that can fight.
-The character development OP talks about is often mentioned once and then forgotten and it the backstory doesn't seem to impact how the characters actually act. Characterization was better in FFX.
-FFX-2 combo of job system and ATB is the best implementation in FF in my opinion. So FF12 coming right after it hurt it in my eyes.
But overally I can say it was a good game and if you remove the expectations of FF from it it is a way above average jrpg.
-Skill/job system was too customizable and free form which means optimizing a chosen party of 3 that can do everything works better than creating 7 specialists and mixing and matching as the system demaned. Much prefer FFX balance of customization freedom and specializing in the sphere grid.
-Don't think gambits added much to the game unless you wanted to make a game within a game of them and program the best AI imaginable. I didn't so it didn't appeal to me.
-Comparing Vaan to Nick in Gatsby is ignoring the fact that the Great Gatsby is a 100x better written than FF12. In the end he is a damn camera that can fight.
-The character development OP talks about is often mentioned once and then forgotten and it the backstory doesn't seem to impact how the characters actually act. Characterization was better in FFX.
-FFX-2 combo of job system and ATB is the best implementation in FF in my opinion. So FF12 coming right after it hurt it in my eyes.
But overally I can say it was a good game and if you remove the expectations of FF from it it is a way above average jrpg.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Great game.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
If we don't count sequels, there is only 1 mainline FF after XIII, and that's XIV, which is a MMO.
Trigonometrize.
Member
I feel like every time FF makes a misstep in the main series, the next game recovers. VIII was terrible, IX got back to things. X was terrible, XII breathed new life. XIII no one likes except for crazy people like me, XV...? We'll see. I have faith because it's not a Toriyama game.
uncledonnie
Banned
So much this. XIII was all the more disappointing because they didn't build on the great foundation that XII created.
GenericUser
Member
FF12 needed defense? FF12 was a magical experience, had an almost flawless battle system and a diverse and interesting story (I know, many of you don't get it) while providing a sense of freedom that has yet to be matched by another FF game.
true true, I guess by the time I played FF13, I finally had to admit that I got out of touch with jap devs. FF12 did so much right and square shits all over it, releasing FF13. Doesn't make sense, not from a player perspective, not from a shareholder perspective. I honestly don't know how and why some jap game companies do form their decisions.
true true, I guess by the time I played FF13, I finally had to admit that I got out of touch with jap devs. FF12 did so much right and square shits all over it, releasing FF13. Doesn't make sense, not from a player perspective, not from a shareholder perspective. I honestly don't know how and why some jap game companies do form their decisions.
Agreed. I fell those who loved FFVI tend to really like FFXII.
FrontalMonk
Banned
FFXII is a pretty great game and I'm pretty sure I'm just being an echoing voice in saying it doesn't need much in the way of defense.
BUT.
What it did need was a "Midgar moment", that I never got. You start the game and play for a few hours, and you look at the world map. It looks good, but it looks like a very zoomed in portion of the world. Here's Rabanastre, the focal point, and the surrounding areas. We never get to go to the other side of the desert. We never get to really go into the big bad evil empire. I played through the game, waiting for the moment where the world map "zoomed out" and you got to explore the rest of Ivalice. That moment never came, and was the big tragedy of what we missed out on with FF12. Every single entry that came before was a grand, globetrotting adventure, and FF12 stayed focused on a single region. That is not okay with me.
BUT.
What it did need was a "Midgar moment", that I never got. You start the game and play for a few hours, and you look at the world map. It looks good, but it looks like a very zoomed in portion of the world. Here's Rabanastre, the focal point, and the surrounding areas. We never get to go to the other side of the desert. We never get to really go into the big bad evil empire. I played through the game, waiting for the moment where the world map "zoomed out" and you got to explore the rest of Ivalice. That moment never came, and was the big tragedy of what we missed out on with FF12. Every single entry that came before was a grand, globetrotting adventure, and FF12 stayed focused on a single region. That is not okay with me.
I've spent 300 hours playing this game, it is my favorite RPG alongside Chrono Trigger. The battle system is absolutely amazing, but what really hooked me was the world: I've never seen such a well crafted world in any game like Ivalice in FF, all the races, all the places are interesting, and the lore is so rich that the main quest feels like a bonus. Best RPG material.
Squall5042
Member
This game is one of my absolutely favorite games of all time.
Awesome battle system, AMAZING soundtrack, great cohesive art style, ugh, I don't want just an HD version, I want a total full on re-make with orchestrated soundtrack.
Awesome battle system, AMAZING soundtrack, great cohesive art style, ugh, I don't want just an HD version, I want a total full on re-make with orchestrated soundtrack.
cheststrongwell
my cake, fuck off
Amazing game. Waiting for that HD treatment.
Tidus_Great
Banned
it's a great game and my second favorite FF behind FFX.
THe only flaw is the pacing IMO. the story really slows down after raitwalls tomb and slows down even more on the way to archadia where you travel through 3-4 areas with little story. The story and dialogue are brilliant, some of the characters feel underdeveloped though Penelo in particular. It's just not as fleshed out in the main story as past FF's have been so many people got bored with it IMO.
THe only flaw is the pacing IMO. the story really slows down after raitwalls tomb and slows down even more on the way to archadia where you travel through 3-4 areas with little story. The story and dialogue are brilliant, some of the characters feel underdeveloped though Penelo in particular. It's just not as fleshed out in the main story as past FF's have been so many people got bored with it IMO.
I enoyed 12 but the prologue was far too long and the game doesnt really get going until you are six or eight hours in. Which is a pity because the story is actually quite good (though sadly peters out a little towards the end). The game also had some odd design and mechanical choice, the International Version looks like it rectified a lot of problems with the game but unfortuantely it never got localised.
My midgar moment was running out of Rabanstre, running into a T-Rex, thinking: Weird, I shouldn't be able to beat a T-Rex at level 3, but whatever, time to make fun of it for not being able to clap. And then 3 seconds later going:
The world was open, it had monsters chasing monsters, and I was actually going to have to pay attention to which ones I fought because they might gang up on me or, gasp, be too high level for me to tackle just yet. So good.
That's a very valid criticism. In every FF, you essentially save the world from destruction. 12 sorely lacked that feel because the world of the game is so small and part of something bigger that we never see. It is like seeing a glimpse of a simple border dispute rather than a true global world war.
The fact that they namby-pamby half-assed the "resolution" to said border dispute did not help.
And for some, like me, something playing out on a smaller, less cliche, more intimate to your characters scale is far preferable to yet another group of rag tag characters out to save the world from evil. Definitely not a negative aspect of FF12 to me.
KillerDark
Member
FFXII was awesome, I would love to replay it sometime!
I can understand that. It's just that every FF has the same general theme of rag-tag heroes saving the world (even 11 and 14) so it does stick out a bit.
My exact thoughts as I saw this thread.
Haeralis The BRave
Banned
FFXII is one of the absolute best games that I've ever played, in particular the IZJS version. I'm a massive fan of everything that this does. From the soundtrack, to the story, to the extremely engaging gameplay which offers more freedom than any other FF game that I have played, I find it absolutely disgusting that a vocal minority was so critical of it for what often seemed to be because "it came after FFX" and "was made by SE and not Squaresoft."
Don't see why this game would need defending. It's absolutely amazing.
It's funny how people's opinions shift in hindsight. Final Fantasy X was blasted very badly across message boards upon release, being regarded as too linear. The lack of a world map drove people to claim it was the worst entry ever.
Final Fantasy XII came around to fix a lot of what fans complained about. It offers a larger world to explore, with a less constrained movement to address the linearity concerns raised by the previous game. Many considered the classic turn based combat to be a retro legacy, so that too was given a twist. People ended up deriding Final Fantasy XII as a travesty and the worst entry ever (ring a bell?), while Final Fantasy X appreciation gained ground.
Final Fantasy XIII releases and people go back to FFX-era diatribes on linearity (though, to be fair, this time misgivings were far fairer). During this time, Final Fantasy XII becomes gradually more accepted.
The only reason XIII won't end up having lots of supporters once XV comes out (I am sure many will say it's the worst ever, it always happens to new FFs) is that it's been so damn long between entries that we're just used to hating it by now. That, and the fact that it was objectively a messy concept.
That said, I think the FFXII hate was rather brief and definitely shorter-lived than that spewed over FFX. It's a great game, and I think opinions across this forum will reflect that.
It's funny how people's opinions shift in hindsight. Final Fantasy X was blasted very badly across message boards upon release, being regarded as too linear. The lack of a world map drove people to claim it was the worst entry ever.
Final Fantasy XII came around to fix a lot of what fans complained about. It offers a larger world to explore, with a less constrained movement to address the linearity concerns raised by the previous game. Many considered the classic turn based combat to be a retro legacy, so that too was given a twist. People ended up deriding Final Fantasy XII as a travesty and the worst entry ever (ring a bell?), while Final Fantasy X appreciation gained ground.
Final Fantasy XIII releases and people go back to FFX-era diatribes on linearity (though, to be fair, this time misgivings were far fairer). During this time, Final Fantasy XII becomes gradually more accepted.
The only reason XIII won't end up having lots of supporters once XV comes out (I am sure many will say it's the worst ever, it always happens to new FFs) is that it's been so damn long between entries that we're just used to hating it by now. That, and the fact that it was objectively a messy concept.
That said, I think the FFXII hate was rather brief and definitely shorter-lived than that spewed over FFX. It's a great game, and I think opinions across this forum will reflect that.
Sir Griffith
Member
Damn, this thread is making me feel good about loving this game ever since it was released. I was chastised so harshly in its first few years after coming out, people reaaaaaaaly didnt like the gambit system (was the main complaint I heard).
This game seems to have the Majora's Mask effect going for it as far as fan popularity goes. Seems like I've heard a different wave of opinions on the game every year since release.
This game seems to have the Majora's Mask effect going for it as far as fan popularity goes. Seems like I've heard a different wave of opinions on the game every year since release.
I think the gambit system is better because it is so flexible and customizable. You're expressing irritation that you actually have to tinker with game mechanics so you prefer the developers handing you your imperfect cake that isn't entirely tailored to your taste, but at least you didn't have to bake it yourself. If gambit profiles existed, would that change your perception?
The paradigm system wasn't really that deep in application. There's little more you can tweak within that system; 13-2 showed that the paradigm system and the combat system of the first two 13 games have little room to evolve because there's not that much to them.
If anything 12 was not difficult enough, with most mob encounters being facerolls and your enjoyment of them up to how crazy you wanted to get at experimenting with abilities. Making the game more difficult would have meant the minute details of exact percentages of HP would be very important to conserving resources and using your cast time efficiently.
"Saving the world" is really goddamn boring. Everyone and their bloody uncle saves worlds nowadays. You might like to feel like you're so heroic, but I think what sets 12 apart is that it doesn't rely on that kind of generic, cliche story.
The feel of 12 is no lesser than 'saving the world', mainly because the futures of nations rode on what happened on your journey. That is something that is bigger than what you could see. Border disputes are a huge deal to the people living at the border and suffering the conflict between powers. Does the problem in Crimea and Ukraine lack the 'feel of saving the world' and therefore is so less important and more insignificant? The American Civil War was also 'rather small' and something like a 'simple border dispute', wasn't it? And yet, these things change history.
Absolutely love the game, but the action was really with Vayne. The player only get glimpse into the story when mindlessly wandering. I was disappointed when after setting up all the political intrigues, your party met up with Larsa and found out that Vayne just took control of everything. I know that he employed some scheme, but to me, it seems like shit was about to go down and then finding out I missed everything. What the game needed was a FFXII-2 where you play as the judges.
Megalosaro
Banned
Really? I used it all the time in order to take advantage of weaknesses.
Guess that goes to show how flexible you could be with strategies
Paracelsus
Member
The criticism also started from the good old "politics? BOOOORING" , because usually in games that do resort to politics the key factor is introducing personal conflict (Suikoden 2? Turns into Jowy vs Riou. FFT? Ramza and Delita doing their own schtick. TO? Vice vs Denam (vs Catiua?).
Also, if you ask the Sakimoto who composed FFXII score to hold a candle to the Sakimoto who composed for VC, he just can't.
Also, if you ask the Sakimoto who composed FFXII score to hold a candle to the Sakimoto who composed for VC, he just can't.
Story was its biggest flaw and was the only thing that kept me from fully liking it. There were some parts though that felt like it lasted forever like that one time you had to go through the desert until that temple with the flying boss or w/e. I've also played the version with jobs and oh my gosh that was awesome.