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[DarkPanda]

Are you kidding me Japanese games with their anime wish fulfillment bullshit troll harder troll harder...

Hey, I said it was my opinion, alright? You're free to feel differently.

Likewise, in my opinion, Japanese devs tend to focus more on gameplay and the overall experience, whereas Western devs focus on making as "badass" and dudebro-like protagonist as possible. I personally couldn't care less about supposed "badass-ness" and simply want a fun game. An interesting example is the God of War games. Kratos is a complete ass and jerk who I hate to see victorious, but the games themselves are fun. At least with most Japanese games, I actually want the protagonist to win.

 

[commissar]

1. Wrpgs are just as thematically similar: good vs evil! Choose your side!

2. Jrpgs tend to be far more gameplay-oriented than wrpgs.

I disagree with #2 purely because "W-RPGs" have a tendency to use #1 throughout the game as a story mechanic whereas "J-RPGs" tend to have a traditionally fixed narrative.
Whether you view conversation options/situation choices affecting narrative as gameplay is another matter


That said, a game like Way of the Samurai is a great example of emergent role-playing, far beyond the realm of most J/W-RPGs, almost comparable to that of ADOM or a singleplayer MMO.
I'd love to see what these guys could do with an actual budget. (or if Fable 3 took some notes)

 

[MidnightScott]

Most of the games I own and have played are from Japanese developers. I only own a few western developed games.

 

[ULTROS!]

From what I know, this gen is heavily populated with shooters and zombie-related games.

 

[Salacious Crumb]

nvm

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

You taking a remake of an 18 year old game that never made it to the US until now over most console rpgs just proves what a sad state Japan is in right now. Their new handheld rpgs aren't any better.

How about if I said I'm more excited about DQIX and X then all the console RPGs combined?

There's just something about Dragon Quest that for me and fellow fans of the series love. I don't know what it is, honestly. I guess it's because, although some people bash the DQ series for never changing or evolving, the irony is that the DQ series is the most un-Japanese among the modern anime JRPG kitsch.

It's the way Yuji Hori designs the games. The Akira Toriyama designs are just all for aesthetic purposes. But the games are unadulterated RPGs that stay away from the usual JRPG nonsense. They're always enjoyable and never bogged down by the anime/manga crap or ridiculous hyper-stylized cinematic action nonsense we see in most modern JRPGs.

I say "most" because of Demon's Souls!

 

[Jonnyram]

I'll reply to Himuro and Himuro only, since this thread is basically him taking something that everyone else has already done to death and making it about him him him. Why not pander to that?

Really? Japanese games are the same as they were last gen? When you've got Monster Hunter? And Demon's Souls? And Valkyria Chronicles -- arguably the most innovative console strategy rpg since Final Fantasy Tactics and Tactics Ogre? Or Noby Noby Boy? I can go on and on.

If you can go on, please do. Because Demon's Souls and Valkyrie Chronicles are pretty much as far as you're going to get when talking about this gen. Monster Hunter was last gen, as was Devil May Cry, FFX, Katamari Damacy, Onimusha, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Yakuza, Kingdom Hearts, Dynasty Warriors, Crazy Taxi, Dark Cloud, Rez, Taiko no Tatsujin. And the gen before that brought us Ridge Racer, Tekken, Ace Combat, Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Everybody's Golf, FFVII.

Noone is saying Japan has run out of ideas, or that they can't improve. The problem is that they have lost that strength that they once had. As Segata Sanshiro said, this gen a lot of western devs have put PC games on consoles and that's why it has seemed like western devs have come up with more ideas. Japan doesn't have a history of PC development, and most of the dev houses have struggled to keep up with the tech this gen.

And your argument is that Japanese games have changed so very little when many popular western companies such as Bioware are doing retreads of decade old formulas they came up with, with barely any additions of evolution?

Was that actually my argument? Because I don't recall mentioning Bioware a single time in my post. How have Western devs innovated this gen? Assassin's Creed, Mirror's Edge, Crackdown, Rock Band, Portal, Little Big Planet, Heavy Rain, MotorStorm, and I haven't even mentioned a bald space marine game yet.

Hypocritical much?

No. You've just imagined something that didn't actually happen.

Because this argument is the least compelling argument.

Dude, your thread is like the least compelling version of this thread too, but you don't like to participate in threads unless they are started by you.

 

[Yasae]

The issue is that Western games have progressed, improved, and massively raised the bar. Japanese games are still the same as they were last gen. Developers are not developing, so to speak. They are just churning out the same stuff.

Really? In some ways BioWare games have regressed to a considerable degree. That would make your statement completely false.

They're not the only western developer, but it only takes one example to set those blanket statements aflame...

The problem is that they have lost that strength that they once had. As Segata Sanshiro said, this gen a lot of western devs have put PC games on consoles and that's why it has seemed like western devs have come up with more ideas.

But they're churning out the same shit too, it's just on consoles.

Okay then. Good night and good luck.

 

[Salacious Crumb]

Left 4 Dead 2 and Portal 2 pissed some people off.

Left 4 Dead 2 kind of pissed me off because I wanted more support for Left 4 Dead 1. But I shouldn't open up old wounds in this thread.

Portal 2 pissed people off, who were they? I think it's time I popped my ignore list cherry. As for L4D2 I think most people changed their tune after seeing more of the game, I rarely hear anyone complain about that anymore.

And even though the support for L4D1 may have been lacking for a Valve game, it's still much much better than 99% of other developers.

 

[ULTROS!]

How did Portal 2 piss of people? I hope it's not "becoz it went ps3 and will has steamworks grrr". :/

 

[Deku]

[/B]

Are you kidding me Japanese games with their anime wish fulfillment bullshit troll harder troll harder...

have you owned a handheld at all?

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

Portal 2 pissed people off? who where they, i think it's time I popped my ignore list cherry. As for L4D2 I think most people changed their tune after seeing more of the game, I rarely hear anyone complain about that anymore.

And even though the support for L4D1 may have been lacking for a Valve game it's still much much better than 99% of other developers.

It didn't piss me off, but some "fanboys" I guess you can call it, felt betrayed that Gabe Newel brought it to the PS3 with that whole E3 surprise.

I don't know, you tell me.

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

How did Portal 2 piss of people? I hope it's not "becoz it went ps3 and will has steamworks grrr". :/

Yup. That's it.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

It didn't piss me off, but some "fanboys" I guess you can call it, felt betrayed that Gabe Newel brought it to the PS3 with that whole E3 surprise.

I don't know, you tell me.

The heck?

Nevermind this is getting OT but..

The fuck?

 

[Troidal]

For me its partially due to my change in taste, but the other is because it has, for the most part, become very cliche. Action games pretty much play like Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden, where players are required to execute complex chain of combos like you are playing a fighting game except its an action game. Then you got RPGs that either have the name Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy on it. Plot, characters, game design for the most part are the same. I'll admit there are other J-RPGs out there like P3/P4 and more recently Xenoblade, hence I said "for the most part".

Let's set aside my qualms about it. The other problem is that, like anime, anything cliche is what sells in Japan. If you slap DQ or FF on a title, it sells for the most part. It doesn't matter whether me, or you likes it or not. It still sold like, how many million copies to date? (Someone give me an accurate number). If I was in the marketing department, that sales figure alone proves that there is nothing that needs to be changed. Just do the same thing over and over and it will continue to sell. It's a 'bad cycle'.

The same argument can be said for Western games, particularly first person shooters. Modern military combat [CoD] or sci-fi setting [Halo] are whats hot now, hence we see a lot of the same ol same ol from multiple developers. It's the same reason I am beginning to hate the FPS genre, but thankfully there are still other games that don't fall into one of the two styles. I've enjoyed last year's version of Wolfenstein (definitely not a popular game even on GAF), then there's Deus Ex coming out next year. I think I'm still ok with FPS games.

But J-action games and J-RPGs? I don't know but my time for those were long over.

 

[ULTROS!]

The heck?

Nevermind this is getting OT but..

The fuck?

If you look at the Valve forums...

 

[Dead Man]

It didn't piss me off, but some "fanboys" I guess you can call it, felt betrayed that Gabe Newel brought it to the PS3 with that whole E3 surprise.

I don't know, you tell me.

What the hell? Really? Pathetic.

Edit: Yeah, sorry for the small derail.

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

Me too.

I'm sorry for the derail.

 

[mujun]

Design wise I think they are falling behind. Not surprising as it takes at least twice as long, for Japanese to adjust to pretty much anything, as it does Australians for example.

By design I mean things like interface (menus, options, save systems), gameplay fundamentals (magical walls that open when you clear rooms, little or no checkpoints despite long stretches of gameplay), pacing (hours of grinding for ingredients or xp), etc.

In design they've been surpassed by miles imo. Bound to happen as there is very little introspection or self evaluation in Japan. Teams tend to be very rigid hierarchies which will keep on making the same mistakes if the person in charge never makes a change.

They still excel in other areas of course, razor sharp engine stuff in games like street fighter, awesome art/art design in things like Demon's Souls, SMG2, great original/off the wall ideas in a bunch of stuff, etc.

Problem is that the west has caught up with much of the above stuff. Sure if you prefer Japanese art/art design then no matter how much the west catches up you'll probably stick with Japanese stuff (like Gears characters vs FF characters for example) but I feel like there is a pretty even spread of the other two across Europe, Japan and North America.

 

[bigswords]

are you a joke or what? you actually corrected me for typing jiberish, sorry but I speak urban language, and urban dictionary sez 'jiberish'is acceptable.

as far as his statement regarding Demon's Souls, it's more of backhanded compliment than anything else

Dude you shouldn't go against Pureauthor, he wrote a book on the dummies guide on gaf and kingdom hearts storyline...

ohhh wait...

canova
learned the lesson too late

Hmmm I got it.

 

[hxa155]

The thing is, a lot of the innovative games this gen came from Japan. Demon's Souls, Wii Sports, Super Mario Galaxy, Valkyria Chronicles..etc. All that while the West makes yet another generic first person shooter.

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

The thing is, a lot of the innovative games this gen came from Japan. Demon's Souls, Wii Sports, Super Mario Galaxy, Valkyria Chronicles..etc. All that while the West makes yet another generic first person shooter.

Bayonetta.

 

[Dead Man]

The thing is, a lot of the innovative games this gen came from Japan. Demon's Souls, Wii Sports, Super Mario Galaxy, Valkyria Chronicles..etc. All that while the West makes yet another generic first person shooter.

God, really? I agree those games are good, but VC is not really innovative, it just looks great (I love VC), and all the west makes is FPS? :lol

 

[DevilWillcry]

The thing is, a lot of the innovative games this gen came from Japan. Demon's Souls, Wii Sports, Super Mario Galaxy, Valkyria Chronicles..etc. All that while the West makes yet another generic first person shooter.

LittleBigPlanet came from the West

 

[Salacious Crumb]

The thing is, a lot of the innovative games this gen came from Japan. Demon's Souls, Wii Sports, Super Mario Galaxy, Valkyria Chronicles..etc. All that while the West makes yet another generic first person shooter.

It's always one extreme or the other, there's never any middle ground huh?

 

[Beezy]

The thing is, a lot of the innovative games this gen came from Japan. Demon's Souls, Wii Sports, Super Mario Galaxy, Valkyria Chronicles..etc. All that while the West makes yet another generic first person shooter.

that was incredibly stupid of you

 

[Timber]

The thing is, a lot of the innovative games this gen came from Japan. Demon's Souls, Wii Sports, Super Mario Galaxy, Valkyria Chronicles..etc. All that while the West makes yet another generic first person shooter.

lol

i guess idiotic replies such as the one above are inevitable when the OP asks the question "is it even possible to discuss japan vs. west without the lol weeaboo argument" while stuffing his post with strawmen denigrating western games.

edit: 6 quotes in a row! if this guy's a troll then we just gave him a feast!

 

[Aaron]

For me its partially due to my change in taste, but the other is because it has, for the most part, become very cliche. Action games pretty much play like Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden, where players are required to execute complex chain of combos like you are playing a fighting game except its an action game. Then you got RPGs that either have the name Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy on it. Plot, characters, game design for the most part are the same. I'll admit there are other J-RPGs out there like P3/P4 and more recently Xenoblade, hence I said "for the most part".

Except only Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy are like those two... and even that's tossed since the newest DQ is a huge departure for the series. Also, complex combos in Ninja Gaiden? Have you actually played the game? There are a series of canned and very easy to learn combos, but you don't use them much at the higher levels because you will just get destroyed. It's a game of block-slash-dodge-slash-block-etc. If this is too much for you, you probably shouldn't be playing this sort of game. Bayonetta also has combos, but they feel much more organic than any other game since they're based on hands and feet. You don't need to look at a move list. You just need to think what you want to attack with.

I think Japanese games suffer far more from perception than reality.

 

[thetrin]

This just in: lots of innovation and great games coming from everywhere, but no one is actually looking hard enough. People are fucking lazy, and don't like having to research what games they might like.

 

[Kayhan]

I blame general western xenophobia.

:lol

You are so butthurt over the fact that western games have been dominant this generation that you have to resort to shit like that.

Pathethic.

Japanese developers need to step their game up. It will only get worse next gen. Either that or they can cede the console market and just concentrate on handhelds.

Capcom has shown the way for other japanese developers.

 

[Josh7289]

I think it's partly the rise of non-Japanese games on consoles, so people living outside Japan now feel like they have something of their own to latch onto, and want to feel like they're different or like they're the superior underdogs by dissing the traditionally dominant Japanese games.

People are weird.

 

[SnakeXs]

They stopped taking chances.

Partially because the growth of RPG fans (compared to say, FPS fans) has not been in stride with dev. costs, and partly because of just pure failure.

When great Japanese developers take chances and are creative, great things can happen. It's proven with people singling out Demon's Souls and Valkyria. Two very unique, creative games. Both far from perfect, yet both adored.

I could say the same about PSX era Squaresoft. Crazy games, crazy chances, strove to be unique, and great things happened.

 

[Yasae]

It's the proliferation of 4chan twaddle. Hard truth, I know.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

I think it's partly the rise of non-Japanese games on consoles, so people living outside Japan now feel like they have something of their own to latch onto, and want to feel like they're different or like they're the superior underdogs by dissing the traditionally dominant Japanese games.

People are weird.

Yeah people are weird...

 

[Dead Man]

lol

i guess idiotic replies such as the one above are inevitable when the OP asks the question "is it even possible to discuss japan vs. west without the lol weeaboo argument" while stuffing his post with strawmen denigrating western games.

edit: 6 quotes in a row! if this guy's a troll then we just gave him a feast!

Yeah, I feel trolled

 

[Feorax]

I thnk the worst thing about JRPGs in particular this generation, is their attempts to evolve, rather than their being stuck in a rut.

It can't be a coincidence that arguably the best console JRPG so far this generation (Lost Odyssey), is also the most traditional in many ways.

 

[bluestuff]

Maybe its because western games provide more choice, better dialogue, better dynamic presentation and more replability then any japanese game this generation.

 

[Aaron]

I thnk the worst thing about JRPGs in particular this generation, is their attempts to evolve, rather than their being stuck in a rut.

It can't be a coincidence that arguably the best console JRPG so far this generation (Lost Odyssey), is also the most traditional in many ways.

People liked LO for something other than the short stories? I sure didn't.

Even if you stick to turn-based games, Resonance of Fate is still a better experience. Heck, I had more fun with Blue Dragon than LO, and that's really that good of a game.

Maybe its because western games provide more choice, better dialogue, better dynamic presentation and more replability then any japanese game this generation.

Choice? You'll have to define what you mean.
Dialogue? My favorite would be Deadly Premonition, a Japanese game.
Dynamic Presentation? Another I don't know what you mean.
Replay? Western wins hands down admittedly.

 

[Jackson]

Japanese genres seem stale to me. There's exceptions sure, but as a rule they're not evolving well with trends (Nintendo aside), same old JRPGs, ultracore beat em ups and Shumps and Dating Sims flood the market.

It seems some are starting to really notice this trend and do something about it. But as a whole it's pretty stagnant still and I mean they know it right? We're always reading about how they want to change and need to change, so I hope they do. I grew up on Japanese games.

 

[Timber]

I think it's partly the rise of non-Japanese games on consoles, so people living outside Japan now feel like they have something of their own to latch onto, and want to feel like they're different or like they're the superior underdogs by dissing the traditionally dominant Japanese games.

this just in: people root for the underdog by buying copies of multi-million selling blockbusters in established franchises. it makes them feel like they're different.

Maybe its because western games provide more choice, better dialogue, better dynamic presentation and more replability then any japanese game this generation.

also: shooting. don't forget the shooting.

 

[Troidal]

Except only Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy are like those two... and even that's tossed since the newest DQ is a huge departure for the series. Also, complex combos in Ninja Gaiden? Have you actually played the game? There are a series of canned and very easy to learn combos, but you don't use them much at the higher levels because you will just get destroyed. It's a game of block-slash-dodge-slash-block-etc. If this is too much for you, you probably shouldn't be playing this sort of game. Bayonetta also has combos, but they feel much more organic than any other game since they're based on hands and feet. You don't need to look at a move list. You just need to think what you want to attack with.

I think Japanese games suffer far more from perception than reality.

And that's why I stopped playing after DMC1 and Ninja Gaiden 1 on Xbox. Afer that, it all felt the same. And I really tried to like them...the DMC and Ninja Gaiden sequels, even Bayonetta. I know my friends will kill me for saying it.

RPG is more of a problem for me. You play to see the story unravel, together with interesting characters and their personal growth. But the plot is always "save the world from evil" and your characters are very one-sided and cliched. Like anime, you got every type of character at your disposal. Hot-headed, naive hero, check. Loli heroine, the cool beautiful heroine, other heroines, check. Old man who kicks ass, check. The list goes on. It's gotten worse now with the whole 'moe' culture thriving in Japanese sub-culture.

And again, this can be said the same for FPS like Halo or CoD, but there are others that veer off from these two. Bioshock 1, Deus Ex, Fallout 3, Metro 2033, they at least present something different in terms of a plot, setting and character design. With J-RPGs, I really dont see anything much difference anymore. Even Persona looks very anime (but stylish I admit) and the days where "Persona/Megami Tensei = dark weird monster designs by Kaneko" are long gone.

To me, a game doesn't necessarily have to be innovative, but the visuals, atmosphere and how these are presented needs to be different. That's why not all Hollywood movies look the same or we'd be watching Michael Bay movies every single week at the box office, no? As much as Hollywood is just as cliched, they are not all Micheal Bay films. J-RPGs and Western FPS need to be more diverse too.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Japanese genres seem stale to me. There's exceptions sure, but as a rule they're not evolving well with trends (Nintendo aside), same old JRPGs, ultracore beat em ups and Shumps and Dating Sims flood the market.

Man I wish there were more beatemups on the market.
What the fuck are shumps?

 

[loosus]

Japanese games have taken a turn for the worst in recent years.

Just over five years ago, it was all about "STYLE STYLE STYLE!" Remember back when these Japanese developers who thought they were rockstars walked out onto stages in fucking leather and shit? Yeah. That era I hated.

It's not any better now -- worse, in fact. Every fucking Japanese game -- even non-RPGs -- has (a) an obnoxiously long storyline that nobody gives a shit about, (b) pedophilia-tendency-like characters, (c) the same Japanese-style character development, etc. In fact, Japanese games have this bizarre child-like view that I can no longer tolerate. I'm not even saying that they need guns, sex, and violence; hell, the Mario games are just fine. But I always get the feeling that a lot of Japanese games are made by no-life programming nerds who are out of touch with everybody except those who are in that exact same category. I can only imagine people who have never touched a girl can tolerate these games. Jacking off to hentai is a prereq.

Somehow, companies like Nintendo have largely been able to stay out of this pitfall. Yes, games like Mario Galaxy are slowly moving in that direction too unfortunately (with their shitty storylines and text bubbles that nobody cares about), but Nintendo is not nearly in as deep as its Japanese brethren.

The people who like these games are also usually greasy, nerdy-looking mouth breathers, and that does not give these games much credence.

 

[Aaron]

RPG is more of a problem for me. You play to see the story unravel, together with interesting characters and their personal growth. But the plot is always "save the world from evil" and your characters are very one-sided and cliched.

I wish I could have ANY game outside this cliche, east or west. Again I have to mention the last game I played that escaped this trap was Deadly Premonition, a Japanese game. I don't think there's ever been a game that's done personal growth better in fact.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Sounds like a drug to me, buddy.

Real talk: Quite a few of the past few posts in this thread are just plain unreadable. I dunno whether these guys are trolling or just being ignorant for the lolz.

 

[charlequin]

I was hoping we could talk about this like adults.

 

[Red Scarlet]

That topic never can, char.