Devolution
Member
People being killed for being themselves aren't all dead. There are varying degrees of dead and being killed okay.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Indie game developer Chloe Sagal attempted suicide on TwitchTV, not dead
- Thread starter Wario64
- Start date
- Status
People being killed for being themselves aren't all dead. There are varying degrees of dead and being killed okay.
There are other threads for you to make this ignorant argument. No one is going to bother responding to you if you're only offering the point that 'suicide is just an attention tactic for teenagers.'
I really can't believe I'm letting myself be hooked back into this, but what do you hope to gain by point-scoring on the scale of tragedy? When Spike Lee calls the treatment of black people genocide or a holocaust, do you see Jewish people, Armenian people etc jumping up to say 'How dare you!? Our people were brutally and systematically slaughtered since we were not even seen as worthy slaves!' No. You don't. So shut up.
I was comparing the now thankfully increasing criticism of the treatment of trans people, and the increasing amount of 'opposition views' it is eliciting as peoples 'beliefs' are challenged, with that which occurred during those eras. That is what we call context.
P.S: What is the guy with the Reggie avatar even talking about? Hahaha.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
No it is not I'm asking why ethic cleansing and racial discrimination were omitted when talking about how transgendered discrimination through examples of death are more current than the guys ancestors being treated similarly I want to know what your reason for this is and your so called context
Delusibeta
Banned
All right, I'll eat my portion of crow: I was wrong, Reddit was right (for once), and she shouldn't have deceived people. I apologise for any offense caused in me defending my incorrect position in this thread and the previous thread.
That all said, some of the blatant transphobia in this thread kinda demonstrates why she did it.
That all said, some of the blatant transphobia in this thread kinda demonstrates why she did it.
Removing all fault on her side, despite admitting she lied, is setting a precedent for others to do the same.
Right, the thing is, people here have differente sensibilities. I'm willing to bet that different people would have different reactions in different, but similar situations.
One might lose their job, home, family, be in an extremely dire situation, think about suicide, and start making a charity call becasue their kid has cancer and need treatment asap. So people who have kids might be more prone to understand this, while others wouldn't.
The thing is, there's a whole difference between "this CAN save a life" and "this WILL save a life".
So yes, some people have deep gender identity issues and can be extremely depressed, alone, and in extreme need of help. But this is not the same thing as someone who will for sure die if they don't get treatment. Scamming and involving other people and making suicide threats is at the end of the day, messed up.
One might lose their job, home, family, be in an extremely dire situation, think about suicide, and start making a charity call becasue their kid has cancer and need treatment asap. So people who have kids might be more prone to understand this, while others wouldn't.
The thing is, there's a whole difference between "this CAN save a life" and "this WILL save a life".
So yes, some people have deep gender identity issues and can be extremely depressed, alone, and in extreme need of help. But this is not the same thing as someone who will for sure die if they don't get treatment. Scamming and involving other people and making suicide threats is at the end of the day, messed up.
RpgN
Junior Member
It's unfortunate what she (he?) has went through to the point of willing to take her life away. We all have our problems that are difficult to deal with, many becoming depressed and not thinking straight anymore.
However, it does not take away that she tried to scam people, lie and threaten others that knew about the scam. Her being a trans or not, this will not change her shitty way of dealing with it. She deserves all the negative comments coming her way even though I feel sorry for her deep down inside. I'm finding it odd how she is being defended and treated like a victim this strongly.
However, it does not take away that she tried to scam people, lie and threaten others that knew about the scam. Her being a trans or not, this will not change her shitty way of dealing with it. She deserves all the negative comments coming her way even though I feel sorry for her deep down inside. I'm finding it odd how she is being defended and treated like a victim this strongly.
King Tubby
Member
Tonight, we have racial minorities vs transgender in the misery triathlon! TWO MARGINALIZED GROUPS ENTER, BUT ONLY ONE CAN BE THE VICTOR
How many parents am I gonna have to ask? It's not THAT fucking common, like there's a suicide attempt epidemic. "I'M TOTALLY GONNA KILL MYSELF" also does not count as a suicide attempt.
Anyway as regards to Chloe, sounds like she was stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of trying to fund her surgery. Didn't want to out herself or thought people wouldn't be sympathetic/willing to donate to such a fund, so resorted to fraud. I feel sympathy and pity that she had to resort to such things out of desperation, but she did something wrong and clearly needs help of some kind.
How many parents am I gonna have to ask? It's not THAT fucking common, like there's a suicide attempt epidemic. "I'M TOTALLY GONNA KILL MYSELF" also does not count as a suicide attempt.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml said:
Anyway as regards to Chloe, sounds like she was stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of trying to fund her surgery. Didn't want to out herself or thought people wouldn't be sympathetic/willing to donate to such a fund, so resorted to fraud. I feel sympathy and pity that she had to resort to such things out of desperation, but she did something wrong and clearly needs help of some kind.
LGBT people only die partial deaths when they are killed. It's a completely different thing, you see.
That's why there's no outrage over entire countries still enacting death penalties on gay citizens. You just can't compare the two!
Never said that, read the post again. While you're at it, feel free to point out what sort of mental illness she's suffering from exactly, since you're sure she is.
I meant in general. The suicide rate is higher for people with this problem. We don't have specific information, but considering she attempted suicide it's not a dangerous assumption to assume that her problem is that severe.
rocketknight
Member
The post you're quoting explicitly said that they didn't think the lying was excusable, so I continue to see nobody who has "removed all fault from her side." You're arguing against people who don't exist.
http://nnlm.gov/bhic/2011/02/08/transgender-suicide-rates/
41% for trans people to 1.6% for the general population. It's sort of a staggering number.
I don't disagree.
Anyway, I know you've reached this point a long time ago, but a couple of replies to this thread while even trying to make this post have had me throwing my hands up in despair.
I'm not trying to find common ground here. I just want to know why people could hold views intolerable to myself. I find it's far too easy to say "Because they're an arse" before at least trying to understand why. As someone who believes that there are far more bad views out there than bad people, I at least hope by bringing bad views to the fore, good people can learn and change those views.
Yes, before you say it, hopeless naive and unrealistic, I know.
This thread is a case in point for myself really. I am, admittedly, really ignorant of what Chloe has been going through. The end result I can at least try to understand and empathise with but the cause, I'm not too good with. I have tried to at least learn a bit about the issues at hand here and hope that even those who have came in here with clearly bigoted views can at least realise that their views have issues and try to understand Chloe's situation a little better.
Of course, many people may not, and yes, trying to find any common ground, or make any progress with any debate with those unwilling to open their own mind is not possible.
The post explicitly says that no blame is on her.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
In other words you have no actual response, noted.
You really went there.
It would be wise for me to just watch this discussion and see just how out of touch with the world I truly am.
let it go bro. You're only gonna get banned.
welp, too late.
faceless007
Member
You're the one who made sweeping statements about my posting behavior without any evidence while getting even the things I said in this thread completely wrong. So I'm not sure what good debating looks like to you. But if you want to quibble about the number, I'll break it down:
"you think people should rather get scammed out of their money"
False. Never said that or anything close to it. Never defended the fundraiser.
"than transgendered people being outed for any wrongdoings"
False. Never said that or anything close to it. Never absolved Sagal of "any" wrongdoing.
"I always see you in these threads only sticking up for one specific extreme"
False. I try to stay away from extremist views and by and large do not defend them, certainly not "always."
"100% of the time."
False. There are many gender and sexism-related threads I do not participate in.
RpgN
Junior Member
Right.
Some members were pissed off at the guy who came out with the news, focusing on the fact that he shouldn't have mentioned her being a trans gender even though it is a vital part to the story (the surgery she wanted to have).
robotzombie
Member
Okay, here is the one thing that is I'm kind of having a hard time sympathizing with in this situation but I will definitely be open to someone giving me a good explanation for it. I honestly don't see the specific problem in this very specific case of the Destructoid guy outing the transgendered girl.
Believe me, I fully and completely understand and appreciate the respect that should be given to not intentionally divulging someone elses' information that they are not ready to divulge themselves. But I feel that way about ANY information, be it something as large as them being transgendered, gay, an athiest, have cancer, or something as small as they had a nose job and don't want anyone to know. In fact, my general view on life is let anyone do/be/say whatever they wish as long as they aren't impeding or harming another person, or taking away the same right from someone else. There should be a general respect level between human beings to not divulge others' personal information simply because they have access to it. However, I also believe that respect is a two way street, and I don't see why one would have to jump through hoops and deal with obstacles to avoid mentioning a truth to protect someone that did not show them very much respect at all.
However, in this very specific case (and correct me if I get any of the general story wrong or I'm giving this guy too much credit), it seems as though the Destructoid guy made a strong effort to help and support someone who he believed he should support. That reasoning turned out to be a lie, and I'll give that person the benefit of the doubt and consider it a very ill conceived mistake rather than a criminal deceit, and he still tried to help and support. However, that is a very disrespectful thing to do to other people. Even more disrespectful is forcing people into precarious situations by threatening to commit suicide. So at a certain point this guy wants to explain this kind of crazy situation, of which the fact that this person is transgendered is not only a critical point, it is the entirety of the story. The entire situation exists solely because of the transgender issue. So at this point I don't understand why the guy is being taken to task for this "outing" as if he somehow still needs to give an amount of respect to a person who gave no respect to him. It makes me feel as though this transgender issue is somehow more important and deserves more attention and respect than any other human interaction.
It may be a sort of mean spirited belief system, but I believe people shouldn't care about things (meaning, "It is fine by me that you are gay, straight, race ABC, religion XYZ, etc") but I don't believe people need to specifically care about whatever your specific issue is when it means they have to dance around topics to explain themselves.
I don't know, maybe I just wasted a lot of time writing nonsense, but I'm really open to hearing what I may be overlooking. As it stands now, I simply don't see why this person has to go out of their way to respect a person's private information (I specifically say that in a general fashion because I think its unfair to prop up "transgender" as somehow being more important than anything else that this falls under that category) when they are trying to explain a complex and difficult situation that involved them and involves a person that asked for charity under false pretenses and threatened suicide.
Believe me, I fully and completely understand and appreciate the respect that should be given to not intentionally divulging someone elses' information that they are not ready to divulge themselves. But I feel that way about ANY information, be it something as large as them being transgendered, gay, an athiest, have cancer, or something as small as they had a nose job and don't want anyone to know. In fact, my general view on life is let anyone do/be/say whatever they wish as long as they aren't impeding or harming another person, or taking away the same right from someone else. There should be a general respect level between human beings to not divulge others' personal information simply because they have access to it. However, I also believe that respect is a two way street, and I don't see why one would have to jump through hoops and deal with obstacles to avoid mentioning a truth to protect someone that did not show them very much respect at all.
However, in this very specific case (and correct me if I get any of the general story wrong or I'm giving this guy too much credit), it seems as though the Destructoid guy made a strong effort to help and support someone who he believed he should support. That reasoning turned out to be a lie, and I'll give that person the benefit of the doubt and consider it a very ill conceived mistake rather than a criminal deceit, and he still tried to help and support. However, that is a very disrespectful thing to do to other people. Even more disrespectful is forcing people into precarious situations by threatening to commit suicide. So at a certain point this guy wants to explain this kind of crazy situation, of which the fact that this person is transgendered is not only a critical point, it is the entirety of the story. The entire situation exists solely because of the transgender issue. So at this point I don't understand why the guy is being taken to task for this "outing" as if he somehow still needs to give an amount of respect to a person who gave no respect to him. It makes me feel as though this transgender issue is somehow more important and deserves more attention and respect than any other human interaction.
It may be a sort of mean spirited belief system, but I believe people shouldn't care about things (meaning, "It is fine by me that you are gay, straight, race ABC, religion XYZ, etc") but I don't believe people need to specifically care about whatever your specific issue is when it means they have to dance around topics to explain themselves.
I don't know, maybe I just wasted a lot of time writing nonsense, but I'm really open to hearing what I may be overlooking. As it stands now, I simply don't see why this person has to go out of their way to respect a person's private information (I specifically say that in a general fashion because I think its unfair to prop up "transgender" as somehow being more important than anything else that this falls under that category) when they are trying to explain a complex and difficult situation that involved them and involves a person that asked for charity under false pretenses and threatened suicide.
She has been suicidal before the indiegogo debacle even happened saying shes going to kill herself if she did not have surgery , then when it got closed the first time - she said it again , then when it got closed the second time again and now a month later she attempted it on twitch tv - after posting it all online and on reddit - it seems shes getting a kick off the negative attention and using suicide threats to get people to support her.
Some of Allistar tweets borders on the fucked up article about the trans teacher that made her kill herself.
Those 2 tweets specialy makes no sense with each other
Or she is trans or she is not. =P
"Sources tell the crowdfunding campain was canceled because of a scam suspect. She did not had a car acident and did not needed metal poisoning treatment. The money is being refunded."
Actualy by some of the posts here and on other sources of this news, I would say transgender people die twice since they sometimes are refered by two pronoums
edit :
He could have called the scam and not told why she needed the money.
In most USA states you can be legaly trown out of your job just because you are transgender. It is a totaly LEGAL thing that a company can do.
That is the kind of thing a person is being trown out for being outed
If he REALLY wanted to suport her, he should have made a fundraiser campaing "for a transgender friend"
Those 2 tweets specialy makes no sense with each other
Or she is trans or she is not. =P
"Sources tell the crowdfunding campain was canceled because of a scam suspect. She did not had a car acident and did not needed metal poisoning treatment. The money is being refunded."
Actualy by some of the posts here and on other sources of this news, I would say transgender people die twice since they sometimes are refered by two pronoums
edit :
He could have called the scam and not told why she needed the money.
In most USA states you can be legaly trown out of your job just because you are transgender. It is a totaly LEGAL thing that a company can do.
That is the kind of thing a person is being trown out for being outed
If he REALLY wanted to suport her, he should have made a fundraiser campaing "for a transgender friend"
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
I never suggested removing fault, or at least intended that. But it is also obvious she is not mentally stable and it is also true thankfully no one was really seriously hurt over this. The fallout after is where we're at now, where people form the path to resolve this. This story is a tough one since everyone involved is a victim. She chose the wrong course of action, but then we loop back to the fact she is obviously not mentally sound and based on people before and after the fact she wasn't completely wrong to not trust people with that info. But rejecting help and complicating it is on her, but then blaming her doesn't help anything, and in the end no one was hurt by it. The end does not justify the means, but the means in this case were not corrupt, just misguided.
I am saying fault is not the most important issue here. The blame game doesn't help any party involved, and there are more serious things here. A victimless crime where everyone was a victim would best be solved by a solution. She couldn't ever do this again anyway, as the truth is out there.
Axispowers
Member
Wow at least she's ok. Really sad post 
Principate
Saint Titanfall
I suppose the irony of this whole thing is that's probably a good thing she did it on a live stream had she done it alone in some isolated space even just her room, she could have most probably died. The silver lining to this terrible cloud.
faceless007
Member
I think a plausible answer is right there in bold: say that Sagal put him in a difficult situation by threatening suicide, say that he had confirmed the fundraiser was under false pretenses but didn't feel comfortable coming forward with it for that reason, but she is receiving medical attention now and will release more information when she feels ready . It wasn't necessary to the story, and arguably doesn't benefit anybody (certainly not the Internet at large) to release the precise reason why it was false. At most, the only people you could argue had a right to that information were those who donated, but they got refunded, so even then I wouldn't say so.
SniperHunter
Banned
ahha nice catch
RpgN
Junior Member
What you're saying makes perfect sense. They also align to my thoughts on this subject.
It also makes sense that there are members who are more emotionally invested in this subject, maybe some of them being trans gender, having family/friends and wanting to help people in need. To them I understand why they react the way they do, focusing on her pain and fear. That is not the bigger picture though. She involved others, mislead them and brought herself in this mess. She could have handled this in so many different ways. There are times where you have to own up to your mistakes and accept when people don't show as much empathy as hoped.
Why would you want to do that on a streaming site. Why would you want anyone to know?
Because you feel powerless and frustrated?
Some of Allistar tweets borders on the fucked up article about the trans teacher that made her kill herself.
Those 2 tweets specialy makes no sense with each other
Or she is trans or she is not. =P
It's as I suspected; She's only in the beginning stages of transitioning, it seems.
"hey guys, this is a scam. But I can't tell you why"
Yeah I'm sure this would have gone down well.
I'm calling bullshit on that one. I'm sure it happens, but is it actually LEGAL? If it is, the US are even more fucked up than I thought.
... really?
digoutyoursoul
Member
Why would you want to do that on a streaming site. Why would you want anyone to know?
Who knows what the mind goes through in such distress? If I was to guess it could be such hurt and resentment to those she felt took her towards suicide and wanted them to see it and give more exposure.
I've been very depressed at times in my life however I have never attempted suicide but I do think what must go through an individuals mind when they are attempting to end their life, it must be fucking awful
RpgN
Junior Member
You seem to miss the fact that this person might not be informed about the whole trans gender topic and how they want to be referred. It is perfectly normal to address someone as a he with no harm intended and not knowing it would offend others. It's kind of unrealistic expecting all kinds of people knowing how to react to a situation that isn't very common.
rocketknight
Member
"Hey, she was lying about having been in a car accident, which is why the money was refunded. However, she does have enormous medical expenses and medical problems that cause her enormous discomfort - that much is true. I will refrain from further details out of respect for her privacy. She is in the hospital recovering now."
Would have been a much better way to go about it.
I wish this weren't true, but it is legal and it happens.
Eh, i doubt that would've worked.
"I need money for an anonymous friend.. trust me"
Who would give you money on such basis? Aside from close friends who trust you.
I agree with this.
To be honest, most people just care because of morbid curiosity anyway, like those asking for pics in a news story.
Those people are not in need of that kind of personal information, beyond the fact that, yes, it was a scam.
Backers probably did, though they were refunded, at least.
While it may often be the case (I try to calmly correct people who use pronouns incorrectly because I know that many simply don't know) -- it is not the case here.
http://storify.com/pixiemania/this-...&utm_content=storify-pingback&utm_source=t.co
Speaking from first hand experience of having gone as a male for years before transitioning, I'm well aware of that. Thank you very much.
Assuming if Allistair Pinsof is telling the truth about Chloe specifically wanting to be identified as a male, it sounds like she's still at the hormone stage. But without further information I can't say for sure.
Irregardless, it's still disrespectful if she identifies online as female.
There are only certain parts of the US where it is legal to do so. I think last I checked, 30 or so states out of the 50 allow for someone to be legally fired for being transgendered (Figure is equally bad for being able to fire someone because they are homosexual). Its improving but its still in a sorry state atm.
partyphone
Banned
It would be 1/S or S^-1
And he would still have been involved, because of someone's lies. I completely understand his stance. Unless he's BSing, he's kept his mouth shut and tried to provide help, but it simply was too much at some point.
That doesn't say it's legal at all. Quite the contrary, in fact.
edit:
So I'm not familiar with the legal US system, but wouldn't that apply to every single state? (and boy... 2012.... kinda LTTP).
RpgN
Junior Member
Thank you for the link. All tweets did not sound surprising or ill intended (except for the last one) from a person who doesn't understand a problem that he did not experience and not looking deeper into it.
That is what I would say except that I don't understand what he's trying to say with that last tweet. It sounds more disrespectful than all the others, or maybe I didn't understand that one right.
1) You can tell that she DIDN'T had the car accident.
2)
In all non blue states it is legal
3) You have a better idea ? It would have gave her money without any lie and he would have helped her
rocketknight
Member
Hrm, I'm not familiar with the implications of that. Presumably it needs to be tried in the court system. My state is attempting to pass explicit allowances to discriminate on the basis of being LGBT this session. I don't know.
The linked article is from 2013.
If that worked in the entire country the article would have no sense to be published
Well maybe it's just a language thing. To me an absence of a law banning something doesn't necessarily mean that it's actually legal (which would mean that there's an actual law allowing such thing to happen).
In other words, even if there's no actual law banning discrimination against gender identity in Florida, someone there sueing their employer for such issue would win.
But then again I'm not a lawyer.
Yes. It also mentions cases being overruled, and others that involve things on top of the whole gender/sexuality issue (eg teacher / student relationship).
Again, that doesn't equate to it being legal.
Her lies hurt other innocent people
Her supports went off attacking doctors and health care providers for not performing "Life saving surgery" her lack of the operation was not really going to cause her to die .
It hurt groupees and other indie developers that were left with egg on their faces that got tricked by her lies.
her and her supporters went off and attacked her family online for not paying for the "life saving surgery" .
The worst thing is it hurt other people on indiegogo that really have life saving surgery and may not get donations because of her selfish actions and lies.
Seriously if her surgery was so badly needed instead of lying online she could easily save up, work a second job and get the surgery in a year.
Her supports went off attacking doctors and health care providers for not performing "Life saving surgery" her lack of the operation was not really going to cause her to die .
It hurt groupees and other indie developers that were left with egg on their faces that got tricked by her lies.
her and her supporters went off and attacked her family online for not paying for the "life saving surgery" .
The worst thing is it hurt other people on indiegogo that really have life saving surgery and may not get donations because of her selfish actions and lies.
Seriously if her surgery was so badly needed instead of lying online she could easily save up, work a second job and get the surgery in a year.
rocketknight
Member
I will look into it after I finish cooking and eating dinner. In the meantime, here's a link to my state's shenanigans in this arena.
Depressed people must not have bootstraps.
I'm not pretending. I have a lot of empathy for her situation especially as I understand firsthand what her mental state might have been like.
- Status