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Intel Haswell-E (i7 5960X, i7 5930K and i7 5820K) info leaked.

Seanspeed

Banned
I'd absolutely expect next-gen ports to be much better at multithreading than last-gen ports.

However, if you only need console-equivalent performance, an Intel quad core should still be easily good enough. These enthusiast-level CPUs get interesting if you e.g. want to run a port of a 30 FPS CPU-limited next gen console game at > 60 FPS (with additional CPU-intensive improved settings, such as draw distance).
That's kinda what I was wondering. I have no interest in running things at console settings and performance.

I'm talking about how to make the *most* of these console ports. Getting a solid 60fps out of them without hassle, reaching 100+fps if you have that sort of monitor, and of course the possibility that certain VR games get built with PS4/Morpheus as lead platform, but will still have a PC version.
 

Renekton

Member
On consoles--with dedicated hardware layouts--it's a lot easier to multi-thread since you can program at a lower level (I use easier very liberally here since it's still pretty hard). When the games are ported over you never really know what you're getting yourself into. Are they using an i3? i5? Haswell-E? FX-8350? They are all very different hardware-wise so making your program heavily threaded while remaining completely hardware-agnostic is much more complicated.

Instead we see games built around the lowest common denominator, dual-cores. Most games use at least 2 cores these days, with quite a few using up to 4 and a handful using more than that. That's why for 99% of games an i5 is more than adequate.
Well developers like CDP did mention switching their engine to a circular job queue system, which probably scale according to the hardware profile. I doubt they would regress back to fixed threads just for PC, since they would have to change a lot of core stuff?
 

Durante

Member
Well developers like CDP did mention switching their engine to a circular job queue system, which probably scale according to the hardware profile. I doubt they would regress back to fixed threads just for PC, since they would have to change a lot of core stuff?
Yeah, fixed-use threads were never a good idea to begin with. As someone with a day job in parallelism research I always wondered why they got so popular in games in the first place, and why developers such as DICE and ND introducing lightweight task scheduling was seen as such a revelation :p

I guess it had something to do with the limitations of old graphics APIs in terms of asynchronous GPU interaction. But those are gone (or at least greatly reduced) now.
 

QaaQer

Member
Instead we see games built around the lowest common denominator, dual-cores. Most games use at least 2 cores these days, with quite a few using up to 4 and a handful using more than that.

Are there any games that require quad cores as minimum?

It would be funny if PC's were the limiting factor in multiplat releases.
 
Yeah, fixed-use threads were never a good idea to begin with. As someone with a day job in parallelism research I always wondered why they got so popular in games in the first place, and why developers such as DICE and ND introducing lightweight task scheduling was seen as such a revelation :p

I guess it had something to do with the limitations of old graphics APIs in terms of asynchronous GPU interaction. But those are gone (or at least greatly reduced) now.

Wouldn't be surprised if the fixed-use threads were an easy and fast way to hack up existing single core code base for use on multiple core machines. Pick some systems and dump them on their own thread that was pretty much how far my basic concurrency lessons went for designing concurrent software.
 
Clearly. I'm not talking about comparison in overall capability, though. I'm talking about how since the individual cores of console CPU's are weak, devs will have to take advantage of what they have - and that is a lot of cores. So if a game is designed around taking advantage of a lot of cores, it stands to reason that if ported to PC, a CPU with a lot of cores would be ideal to have to get the best possible performance, right?

Kinda the same reason a lot of people are worried about vRAM at the moment.

Oh you might benefit of it, but we already have enough CPU power as it is in almost all situations. This will be overkill.

And the optimizations for hardware on the consoles never seems to really translate to the PC versions. I would feel more confident with a low number of cores with a high clock rate than a high number of cores with a low clock rate like the console hardware. Obviously both would be preferable, but I doubt we will suddenly have good optimization is most games for 6 and 8 cores, never mind the hyperthreading.
 
If you want to run a 30 FPS next-gen game at 120 FPS I think an OC'ed 5960X might not even be overkill :p

That is why I made sure to include almost. That situation being wanting to run CPU demanding games at higher than 60 FPS. Or wanting to run multiple CPU intensive things at once or something.
 
The 5820K is interesting, only about 90 bucks more than the 4770k. My next build is probably this cpu and the gtx 880.


More cores and HT will only make sense from now, multiplats are made with next gen consoles in mind, they'll start to take advantage of more cores after all this cross gen stuff is over.
 

SandTorso

Member
You know, I really want that 5960K, but I just can't justify spending $1000 on a CPU. I guess my Q6600 is going to have to hold on for a bit longer.

Which isn't really good for me because my overclocks are getting less and less stable. Down to 3Ghz instead of 3.6.
 

DevilFox

Member
Good prices.. if it wasn't for DDR4 prices, I'd jump in but I can't wait more time. Whatever, I'll squeeze everything out of my future 4770, I'm sure it will be enough for my needs.
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Am I the only one who's disappointed by the clock speeds of these new CPUs? I'd be interested in an 8-core Core i7 but with a default clock speed of 3Ghz (3.5Ghz at turbo) it's a bit disappointing.
 

Qassim

Member
Are there any games that require quad cores as minimum?

It would be funny if PC's were the limiting factor in multiplat releases.

It seems many, if not most, of the next-gen multiplatform games require a quad core, unless they also have a PS3/360 version in which the minimum requirements can sometimes be the same as they have been for the past 7 years. 8800GT or equivalent, Core 2 Duo, etc.

But even some games that are cross-gen have completely axed that spec from their PC version and raised the minimum requirements. I think we'd see minimum requirements raised before we saw low-end PCs being a limiting factor.
 

Lucius86

Banned
What are the next Intel CPUs on the horizon after these, and when are they expected?

My i5 750 desktop CPU has done well, but I want a virtualisation beast as well as a gaming CPU that will last another 5. Not sure whether to jump now or later on an entirely new rig.
 

Danneee

Member
When my 4670K becomes a bottleneck in 1080/60 gaming I'll upgrade it. That's probably not going to happen anytime soon.
 
What's the reason that just a six core CPU costs the same as a PS4 which packs an eight core CPU not to mention all the other parts to make a console?
 
What are the next Intel CPUs on the horizon after these, and when are they expected?

My i5 750 desktop CPU has done well, but I want a virtualisation beast as well as a gaming CPU that will last another 5. Not sure whether to jump now or later on an entirely new rig.

Skylake in 2015. That i5 is definitely on the very low end at this point.

What's the reason that just a six core CPU costs the same as a PS4 which packs an eight core CPU not to mention all the other parts to make a console?

See my post here. TLDR is that this 6-core CPU supports up to 12 threads and is probably 3 times as powerful as the CPU portion of the PS4. To build a PC on par--hardware wise--with a PS4 would probably cost like $400-500.
 

Durante

Member
And the optimizations for hardware on the consoles never seems to really translate to the PC versions. I would feel more confident with a low number of cores with a high clock rate than a high number of cores with a low clock rate like the console hardware.
But the point is, with Haswell-E you get the best currently available IPC, high clock rates and a lot of cores.
 

wwm0nkey

Member
I already have a 2500k at 4.4ghz and I'm picking up an 880 next month when those hit, but I will wait for that 8 core and DDR4 to go down in price and then build a new rig with Windows 9.
 

Seanspeed

Banned
Oh you might benefit of it, but we already have enough CPU power as it is in almost all situations. This will be overkill.

And the optimizations for hardware on the consoles never seems to really translate to the PC versions. I would feel more confident with a low number of cores with a high clock rate than a high number of cores with a low clock rate like the console hardware. Obviously both would be preferable, but I doubt we will suddenly have good optimization is most games for 6 and 8 cores, never mind the hyperthreading.
Well that's what I'm talking about here - having both more cores, plus more powerful individual cores.

I'm a big user of vsync and I like a nice, smooth and capped 60fps. To achieve this, I sometimes have to actually achieve an average of 70-75fps, as some games can vary and dip considerably. So I might actually need to be able to hit 80-90fps just to lock it to 60fps.

I'm also considering a 1440p/120hz monitor in the next year or two.

And I'm buying the Oculus Rift CV1 as soon as its available, which will be 90hz at the least, and 1440p resolution.

If a 6 or 8 core CPU is going to help me out in these situations, then I wouldn't call it overkill and I wouldn't say its 'not for gamers' either.
 
I'm building a gaming/video editing rig soon. Worth waiting for the 5820k or going with the 4790k I had already picked out.

When are these releasing?
 

Cse

Banned
I'm really going to be interested in seeing how the 5820k measures up against the 4790k.

The 4790k's base clock speed is a full 1 Ghz faster than the 5820k. Sure, the extra physical and virtual cores are nice, but at the end of the day, are they going to make up for the performance hit from a significantly slower clock speed?
 

Seanspeed

Banned
I'm really going to be interested in seeing how the 5820k measures up against the 4790k.

The 4790k's base clock speed is a full 1 Ghz faster than the 5820k. Sure, the extra physical and virtual cores are nice, but at the end of the day, are they going to make up for the performance hit from a significantly slower clock speed?
I don't think Intel expects anybody buying these unlocked, enthusiasts processors to leave them stock.
 

Crisco

Banned
Damn, I wanted the 8-core but that pricing is nuts. It's not even about affordability, $1000 for quite literally the least important component in a gaming PC is hard to swallow. You could get the $500 one and buy a second GPU instead which will have a much larger impact on performance.
 
What's with the arbitrary gimping of pcie lanes for sli users? Is this a new thing?


Those prices are stupid btw, if you'd asked me back in 2008 I'd have thought 6-8 core cpus would have simply replaced 2-4 cores ones in the lineups by now at the same price.

Finally some progress in cpu performance for the regular user and it comes with a silly price tag

Damn, I wanted the 8-core but that pricing is nuts. It's not even about affordability, $1000 for quite literally the most important component in a gaming PC is hard to swallow. You could get the $500 one and buy a second GPU instead which will have a much larger impact on performance.
A good cpu is vital to a gaming pc, ask anyone with a shitty phenom II (me) or amd fx cpu.
 

SerTapTap

Member
True that. Haven't even felt the need to OC mine at all yet. Even liquid cooled for when I eventually do.

You haven't like...flipped the switch, which is all it takes on modern CPUs? I'm running 4.5 on a 3.5 stock clock with no problems on air (in a very well ventilated case with a hyper 212 evo).
 

pixlexic

Banned
What's with the arbitrary gimping of pcie lanes for sli users? Is this a new thing?


Those prices are stupid btw, if you'd asked me back in 2008 I'd have thought 6-8 core cpus would have simply replaced 2-4 cores ones in the lineups by now at the same price.

Finally some progress in cpu performance for the regular user and it comes with a silly price tag


A good cpu is vital to a gaming pc, ask anyone with a shitty phenom II (me) or amd fx cpu.

A good cpu is vital but the consoles make that cpu requirement not have to so bleeding edge for the foreseeable future.

Maybe if you like unisoft games ;p
 

Crisco

Banned
A good cpu is vital to a gaming pc, ask anyone with a shitty phenom II (me) or amd fx cpu.

It's vital in the sense that you need one, but you don't need one every 2 years, or even every 4 years. If you buy a good one, they last nearly as long as a console generation.
 

astonish

Member
I was going to go for the extra lanes, but I think here at work I likely won't do more than single card so 16x+ 4x NVMe + 4x to spare should be more than enough on the lowest processor, while giving me 6 cores. Helps make up for the ~$600CAD 32GB of DDR4 will cost....
 
A good cpu is vital but the consoles make that cpu requirement not have to so bleeding edge for the foreseeable future.

Maybe if you like unisoft games ;p

Plenty of pc only games
+ most console games only run at 30 fps so you'll need at least 2x the cpu performance (easily gotten with an old i5 2500k at least) for 60 fps, then some more for better lod settings and a higher fov, then if you care about 120 hz or vr you'll need even more.

You don't buy a gaming pc to play console games at 30 fps, you play it to play pc games and to play all your games at 60+ fps

PC games are designed around the limitations of pc hardware, stagnation in performance just means more limited game mechanics on a smaller scale for longer
If performance had stagnated at the core2duo instead of sandy bridge then the 'but it's enough to run current games and future games' would have still been true, if we'd all still be stuck on a 386 2X that would still be true.

640Kb is enough
 

mkenyon

Banned
If you want to run a 30 FPS next-gen game at 120 FPS I think an OC'ed 5960X might not even be overkill :p
Well that's what I'm talking about here - having both more cores, plus more powerful individual cores.

I'm a big user of vsync and I like a nice, smooth and capped 60fps. To achieve this, I sometimes have to actually achieve an average of 70-75fps, as some games can vary and dip considerably. So I might actually need to be able to hit 80-90fps just to lock it to 60fps.

I'm also considering a 1440p/120hz monitor in the next year or two.

And I'm buying the Oculus Rift CV1 as soon as its available, which will be 90hz at the least, and 1440p resolution.

If a 6 or 8 core CPU is going to help me out in these situations, then I wouldn't call it overkill and I wouldn't say its 'not for gamers' either.
Eh, it doesn't really work like that. There's never been a game in recent history that has been that severely bottlenecked by a CPU. In fact, the only games that are bottlenecked to a major degree are single or dual threaded games. Starcraft 2 and UE3 engine games spring to mind as some of the biggest offenders. Even in the case of those games, you don't see a four fold increase in frame rate going from a high end processor to a REALLY high end processor. The gains pretty much stop once you get to a 4.5GHz Intel Core Series processor.

In general, you can say that the more threads a game uses, the less CPU performance has an affect on frame rate.

Furthermore, the 2500K (at around 4.5GHz) is already around 3 times as powerful as the CPU on the PS4.

Lastly, the things that are typically responsible for fairly large frame dips, like translating game state, or physics, to this point have not really been helped by further parallelism. Durante, I know almost nothing outside of objective data on the testing front for this type of stuff with some admitted not 100% precise deductive reasoning to determine this, but would those typical CPU-heavy tasks be improved through parallelism in the future?

Even if that were the case, again, I think you would see a reduced emphasis on CPU being an important aspect of maintaining a frame rate.
Should I send back the 4790k I ordered yesterday?
Not unless you use your PC for professional work that requires 12 threads.
Plenty of pc only games
+ most console games only run at 30 fps so you'll need at least 2x the cpu performance
(easily gotten with an old i5 2500k at least) for 60 fps, then some more for better lod settings and a higher fov, then if you care about 120 hz or vr you'll need even more.

You don't buy a gaming pc to play console games at 30 fps, you play it to play pc games and to play all your games at 60+ fps
You can't assume the CPU is the reason the game is running at that frame rate. It's almost certainly not the case.


*edit*

Here's probably one of the more interesting benchmarks. Civ V is one of the very few games that is actually n-threaded. This benchmark was done at 1440p with a single 7970.

54516.png


*edit 2*

And this is Crysis 3, which can use 4 or more threads on a CPU efficiently.

c3-fps.gif
 

Durante

Member
In general, you can say that the more threads a game uses, the less CPU performance has an affect on frame rate.
That's just for now though, because the bottlenecks are moved elsewhere. Expect this to change.

Durante, I know almost nothing outside of objective data on the testing front for this type of stuff with some admitted not 100% precise deductive reasoning to determine this, but would those typical CPU-heavy tasks be improved through parallelism in the future?
Yes. I really think people will be surprised how well games based on modern and future engines (and APIs) will scale. Most of what games do which is CPU intensive is inherently parallel, it's just the matter of expressing and managing it correctly which hasn't really been there so far.
 

mkenyon

Banned
Have you looked into how Civ V manages things? I mean, in terms of CPU usage, that's a damn intensive game for what it's simulating. At least it seems like it to a layman as myself.

Given that it is n-threaded, it still generally falls in line with the same principle of moving the bottleneck off of the CPU.

Is this a byproduct of still working within the same API as the other games, despite being n-threaded?
 
Hell no.



DDR4 prices are pretty damn good. Newegg has sticks of them up for sale right now. I think you can get 16 gigs for around $210. Yeah it's more expensive, but no where near as much as I thought they were going to price it.

is the DDR4 performance increase even worth it? CPU are not bandwidth hungry at all, i can only imagine an APU taking advantage of the extra speed, but when it comes to serious gamers they will go with a separate GPU anyway making it pointless to pay that kind of money.
 
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