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Is 4K the best way to use the power of Scorpio and PS4K? Digital Foundry unconvinced
- Thread starter ShogunDarius
- Start date
CrispyBoar
Banned
I agree; It's all a huge waste. No 3rd party publisher is going to put most of their games in 4K, especially knowing that most people doesn't own 4K TV's or gaming monitors.
He's not talking about the size.
60fps is very unlikely if Sony and Microsoft use the weak Jaguar CPU.
A few GPU-dependent games can hit 60fps, but most will be too CPU-capped after 30fps.
Several current games barely hold 20-30fps due to Jaguar CPU.
Or have all games that were designed on a 1.3TF machine just in 1080p@60FPS or 4k on the Scorpio to justify Scorpio's existence!
CyberMiguel
Banned
Actually, it's not just your opinion, but the opinion of several experts. There are even charts which state what is the optimal 1080p viewing distance for different TV sizes:
https://www.avforums.com/article/tv-full-hd-ultra-hd-4k-viewing-distance-guide.10704
http://referencehometheater.com/2013/commentary/4k-calculator/
As you can see, you are correct in your assumption that "On standard sized TVs, 4k will be barely noticeable" (and I would add "if at all").
Whether they are a mistake will depend on how the market at large receives them. We don't really know how Sony is going to regard Neo as part of the lineup. Does it get an enormous marketing push months ahead of time, like the vanilla PS4 did? Or does it just get presented as an option like all of the later PS3 skus did?
Likewise, I have to imagine the goal with Scorpio is to have a better trajectory than Xbox One. If it sells the same way in 2018 that Xbone did in 2015, nothing significant will have been accomplished.
The weird thing is if developers are targeting the widest user base possible, how many games are we going to get before 2019 that do not also release on Xbone and PS4? And if that is around the time that developers start to ditch the "legacy" footprints, why wouldn't I want a new console in 2019 instead of one from 2017? This whole thing seems like a recipe for the mainstream consumer sticking with what they already own, and the enthusiasts buying multiplatform games on Steam.
Isnt there a chance that Microsoft is underselling so they can over deliver? I find it a bit weird that they're so open with their specs so early on. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there's a good chance that in a year and a half it will be easy for the scorpio to hit 8TF, in fact I'd be surprised if the specs remained unchanged in all that time. If this is likely, I wonder if Sony is thinking about this.
I watched and/or read just about every interview Phil Spencer gave during E3. He mentioned that 3 party developers already make 4K PC versions of games with upgraded assets. They talked to developers to find out what spec was needed for 4K on console and thats how they got to 6 teraflops. Now that Microsoft as a 1st party will be developing PC games that will be target 4K. Those assets will transfer to Scorpio.
So they and 3rd parties will only have to target two spec. XB1 and Scorpio/4kPC
Conversely because PS4 Neo is rumored to spec inbetween 1080p and 4K. Developers are going to have to target it specifically. PS4, PS4 Neo, 4KPC
If Neo is ~4TF and games are made to run at 1080P/30 on it at higher settings, then Scorpio definitely won't be running those games at native 4K. Of course devs could scale the settings back to hit 4K on Scorpio, but I doubt that'd happen (and nor would I want them to). So you'll probably end up seeing a lot of sub-4K games on Scorpio.
Dinky Dino
Member
Open world games will be tricky. I can't see beth games going 60 on a jaguar. Or a very unstable 40-60. Linear games could easily do it though. Dunno what cpu the scorpio uses though so it might be possible there.
coughlanio
Member
On my 40" 4K PC monitor?
Definitely 4K Medium, looks far better than 1080p Ultra scaled up at that size.
At the rumored specs the Neo is roughly equivalent to something like 2.5x the power of the PS4, isn't it? And most PS4 games run near-enough to 1080p30fps currently. Doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility to me that 1080p60fps with a bump in image quality (PC Ultra settings or slightly less) would be achievable.
I knew the penetration of 4K TVs had to be low but if in PC gaming 4K and 1440p barely register, 4K TV market share must be near as makes no difference to 1-2%. Tailoring games for 4K on a console makes no sense really. Better to spec for 1080p60fps with better visual fidelity and leave a little power untapped for improved physics or the like.
NecroGiggles
Member
So how are they going to deal with multi player? Wont having a newer system that can do 60 fps all day long with no frame drop give them a unfair advantage in FPS ? Or are they going to split the user base?
1080p is "diminishing returns" territory? What?
I'm just going to assume you haven't played on a 1440p or 4k monitor, as it is impossible to make that statement if you have.
Resolution is just marketing, it doesn't make things look better. If it did we could all just cheaply upscale to instantly get PS5 graphics. We need art and post processing, not pointless pixels.
Until we have pixar quality visuals (and lets not kid ourselves that any 4K game looks better than a pixar move at 720p, or even on DVD) we shouldn't be upping the resolution. If image quality was the primary concern and gamers were smarter than to fall for the marketing then 1080p would be all we need at least for the next few generations.
Until we have pixar quality visuals (and lets not kid ourselves that any 4K game looks better than a pixar move at 720p, or even on DVD) we shouldn't be upping the resolution. If image quality was the primary concern and gamers were smarter than to fall for the marketing then 1080p would be all we need at least for the next few generations.
Yeah that was a bad example heh, was focused on pointing out that the 'power' of a platform exists in multiple areas and cannot be measured in simple tflops, though linear scaling isn't quite accurate either for resolution with architecture changes etc.
Basically what I meant to say is you cannot make a CPU performance capped game go from 30 > 60 fps by increasing the GPU performance by 2.5x.
Not sure how many games you've compared at 720p/1080p/2160p but many modern games have such impressive detail that simply increasing resolution does actually make them look significantly better. I think Uncharted 4 would look magnificent at 4K.
You are not thinking.
Games need to be built from the ground up to be better looking at lower resolutions. Of course taking current games that just bolt on texture packs for higher resolutions but do nothing at all for lower resolutions will look better with higher resolutions. Which game have you tested that does for more complex post processing and more accurate lighting the lower you make the resolution?
I'm kinda hoping the opposite actually, totally down with the concept of PS4+Mega GPU.
I honestly don't know how to respond to this so I'm just gonna end the conversation sorry.
GodParticle
Member
Is 4k a big thing? I don't know anyone who actually owns displays for it and never hear anyone talk about it.1080 is perfectly fine for me,especially if they can bump games to 60. I'll take that any day over 30
Well issue with 4k PC gaming is that it is still terribly expensive. Both in terms of the costs of the monitors themselves, and the hardware needed to drive 4k at acceptable performance levels. Even the most powerful GPUs struggle to get 4k/60fps on current gen games. This is a terrible proposition considering many people want to play games beyond 60fps, and take advantage of stuff like G-Sync.
rokkerkory
Member
1080p60 sounds amazing to me
Nah, those pixels are going to be INFLATED up 4X, not compressed.
Pretty sure the reduced aliasing produced by a 4k display (displaying a 4k game) would make it worth it.
Also, your typical gamer from 30 years ago up to today typically sits much closer to the TV while gaming vs watching a movie, which completely demolishes the argument that you won't see the increased detail.
Neither MS or Sony have said that the iterative units are marketing 4k for anything more than media and playback functionality.
MS briefly put their foots in their mouths by saying there would be exclusive games, but then course corrected.
Until that happens, you can't really call it a new cycle.
MS briefly put their foots in their mouths by saying there would be exclusive games, but then course corrected.
Until that happens, you can't really call it a new cycle.
Another question is, will they be able to do 60 fps at all on most current 30 fps games at any resolution? Considering there's barely any improvement to the CPUs which is often the bottleneck for higher framerates, it seems upping the resolution and only the resolution is what they're designed to do..
It's also the only improvement that can be done to a game that will never make it play differently from the base console version.. Improving the framerate and rendering a more detailed gameworld may change how the game plays more fundamentally..
It's also the only improvement that can be done to a game that will never make it play differently from the base console version.. Improving the framerate and rendering a more detailed gameworld may change how the game plays more fundamentally..