gunslikewhoa
Member
I have a 1440p monitor and play most anything taxing at 1080p without a care in the world. I also don't see myself buying a 4k replacement for any of my 1080p TVs anytime soon. It's not even on my radar.
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Is 4K the best way to use the power of Scorpio and PS4K? Digital Foundry unconvinced
- Thread starter ShogunDarius
- Start date
LukasTaves
Member
I'd rather have them focused on 1080p with insane graphics than wasting power for chasing a higher resolution.
At 1080p we could potentially have zero AA issues, insanely good assets, and some very very very expensive pixels running some crazy shaders.
I dunno, it just seems like a power and bandwidth waste to support that resolution now.
At 1080p we could potentially have zero AA issues, insanely good assets, and some very very very expensive pixels running some crazy shaders.
I dunno, it just seems like a power and bandwidth waste to support that resolution now.
I do, but it's the exclusives I want to see running at 1080p/60 with the extra juice the updated consoles will have.
OmegaDL50
Member
And that is the problem. Aren't the PS4 Neo and XB1 Scorpio not supposed to be Next-Gen consoles, but just a revision offering more grunt to what we already have.
The point of the PS4 being designed with existing software and even future software even beyond when the Neo finally comes out was always the promised goal being said by Sony.
While those expectations would be nice, but I'm honestly not expecting Sony to divide the user base to make the necessary changes to achieve this.
I'd understand if were talking about the PS5 in the sense of being an entirely new piece of hardware, but an iterative upgrade to an existing piece of hardware, no.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Halo 6 with 6TF of visuals at 1080p or Halo 6 with the typical in generation upgrade over the sequel at 4k.
I know which one I want.
I know which one I want.
Yeah but you know which one you're gonna get!
ALLseeingEYE
Member
Based on what info?
As an avid PC user who regularly games on a single GTX 980 ti, which is a 6 terraflop card, this much power is definitely enough for 4K, especially for games with current-gen visuals. In fact, this card, equipped with the right CPU will often do 40fps+ on ultra settings. There should be more than enough power in the Scorpio to do a very solid 4k, especially if games are optimized for it. I think Eurogamer are smart guys, but even they are going on very sparse info when it comes to Scorpio.
Also remember that Microsoft is already deep in development on a lot of 4k Win10 games. They should be well equipped come launch next year, I'm just curious what they will have in store for Scorpio games come launch time.
M_A_C
Member
Yeah, it just makes me want to spend all my gaming time and money on PC gaming.
ALLseeingEYE
Member
If the PS4 Neo really does have a downclocked RX 480 inside, and if that card is really smack in the middle of a GTX 970 and 980 when fully clocked, then yeah, there is likely little chance they can push PS4 exclusives at 4k with good image quality. They may be able to do a very solid 1440p, perhaps upscaled, but I could see them targeting a very high quality, and high framerate 1080p as priority.
I actually almost half expect Sony to delay and upgrade the Neo at this point, but they may be too far into investment and development to do that at this point.
We're a good 7yrs away (if not more) from consumerr-ready 8k tv's. Nothing is in the consumer pipeline to feed that sort of resolution. Products like that at trade shows are aspirational; and they represent what a company *can* do- little more.
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
I would much rather have better looking, faster running games at 1080p than the same middling performance we have now, but at 4k. But alas, that doesn't have a hip new buzzword attached to it.
Leyasu
Banned
I know what too... And it aint 4k
343 making the game.... A heavily comprised 4k/60fps
RowdyReverb
Member
343 seems pretty intent on 60fps going forward, so I don't think 4K is even a consideration for Halo 6
I tend to agree. This is just a follow up to their prior click-bait article. We just don't know enough at this point. OTOH, I'm a naturally skeptical person so I'm taking a wait and see approach on the 4k bit. I'm okay either way because the Scorpio should provide a large jump in image quality. Personally, I'm more interested in HDR though.
Leyasu
Banned
I hope not
eso76
Member
I think all those flops being wasted on 'trying' to go 4k are blasphemy. Then again I don't plan to upgrade my 1080tv anytime soon, and even then playing at the current size/distance I wouldn't even see a huge difference so my opinion is probably biased.
I am not sure there's a market for this mid gen refresh, especially if devs are required to make the experience identical across all platforms.
I just think that multiple hardware configurations should go hand in hand with sliders and options.
I am not sure there's a market for this mid gen refresh, especially if devs are required to make the experience identical across all platforms.
I just think that multiple hardware configurations should go hand in hand with sliders and options.
A lot of folks are glossing over that. Phil Spencer noted in many of his interviews that 4K assets used to make the PC version would be easily brought over to Scorpio thus the reason they went for such a high spec. He mentioned how 3rd party developers already make 4K PC version of console games and those assets can just be brought over to Scorpio with little extra development. As oppose to something in the middle between XB1/PS4 and a 4K PC where a developer is going to have to do more work to target that mid-range spec.
shadowsdarknes
Member
For games that are console exclusive, how scale-able are the game assets?
If developers wanted to do more dense geometry, better reflections, higher res textures, etc, would that generally require a lot more work?
I see why its easy for PC games because the assets are built to scale for a range of different hardware configurations. But I wasn't sure if console exclusives are built like this.
If developers wanted to do more dense geometry, better reflections, higher res textures, etc, would that generally require a lot more work?
I see why its easy for PC games because the assets are built to scale for a range of different hardware configurations. But I wasn't sure if console exclusives are built like this.
Heckler456
Banned
Come to think of it, this might actually be the perfect solution to the "1080p/60fps as a standard" thing.
Thing is, at the moment XBO doesn't it 1080. So you'll get additional sharpness. Then they should be able to hit 60fps or better. Then the effects should be able to be more.
I can't see how the games won't look WAY better on even 1080 than they do now if the developer at least makes assets etc for higher resolutions.
I can't see how the games won't look WAY better on even 1080 than they do now if the developer at least makes assets etc for higher resolutions.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Why would you hope against 4K?
I think people here really underestimate the power of 4K to transcend and image to something completely different.
At 4K, games are devoid of all the shimmering, aliasing, glitchy qualities that make games look, well, gamey.
For years people have clammored for that "Toy Story" image. And the biggest hinderence to that goal has not been lighting, or textures, or effects, which often modern games outdo. (If not on a technical level on a visual output level) It has been the image quality.
Shaders look better in 4K, vegitation looks a generation ahead in 4K, LoD is sometimes technically enhanced(and always made better use of) in 4K, AA becomes a non issue in all but the rarest of instances, textures that before had their details blurred and obscured by low resolutions, are now vivid and communicate detail from afar.
It is really a transformative effect on games. Going back and playing older games like Bioshock, Mirrors Edge, Skyrim, etc all look like completely different games at 4K. The same could not be said when playing those same games at 60hz.
Yeah I think Microsoft is moving a bit too fast in the march to 4K gaming. 4K video for those who want it? That's not a big problem. Running high-end games in 4K at this point though is still probably too much of an effort for how few people will actually take advantage of it. Not to mention the current consoles are only just now getting most games to be 1080p, and even then a ton of games are still struggling to hit 30fps. I have a feeling most 4K games on Scorpio would also struggle to maintain locked framerates.
In the short term, the extra power of Neo and Scorpio are probably put to better use running prettier and more stable 1080p games. Maybe some 1440p games or supersampled 1080p games.
In the short term, the extra power of Neo and Scorpio are probably put to better use running prettier and more stable 1080p games. Maybe some 1440p games or supersampled 1080p games.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
60 FPS will never be the norm. Think about all the PS2 remasters that still run 30 FPS on PS4, having a bunch of extra power doesnt mean they are going to double the frame rate.
yep i just know theyre gonna mandate 4k for their first party games. halo aint gonna be a looker if they go 4k thats for sure
I wonder how many actually play on a screen large enough to warrant 4K. My guess is most Steam PC gamers sit a few feet away from the screens less than 32". 4K screens are expensive in those small sizes too. 4K is needed in a console living room environment where most screen are in the 55" - 65" range. They also aren't that much more expensive than comparable 1080p tvs. Cheap 43" 4K tvs are $250 everyday at walmart.com
When you're right next to a screen you're more likely to notice the resolution difference though. This is why phones have astronomical resolutions despite only being a few inches.
CosmicQueso
Member
Scorpio is a year and a half away.
Gaugung interest using current Steam HW data and current 4K tv installed base isn't the way to compare this.
Of course it wouldn't be the best use of resources today. But we're not talking about today.
Maybe it ends up being the wrong call. But by this holiday many TVs sold will be 4K capable, and costs keep coming down, while more content is being made available.
Gaugung interest using current Steam HW data and current 4K tv installed base isn't the way to compare this.
Of course it wouldn't be the best use of resources today. But we're not talking about today.
Maybe it ends up being the wrong call. But by this holiday many TVs sold will be 4K capable, and costs keep coming down, while more content is being made available.
Eurogamer have kinda lost the plot a bit here, these aren't next gen consoles,they are mid way refreshes. Forward and backward compatibility mandates underlined that.
And Sony at least will hold to it. There is zero reason not to.
Scorpio games have to run on xbone, so neo isn't going to be outclassed by ms software anytime soon ..and when Sony finally feels the pressures of being CPU limited...they simply drop hints for the kinda fresh start experience you'll get from ps5 in 2019.which won't be restricted in terms of ps4 needing to be able to play it's sw.
EG makes the mistake that this forward compatibility mandate from Sony is the plan for all subsequent consoles.its not. It's only for the mid life cycle refresh. Sony are still sticking to the @8 year life cycle we are used to. And then the fresh start.
MS though...they are. But...it's basically in the loose terms the EG article describes..and that's nothing new..it's the pc way. Although what MS are trying to do is tidy that up a bit. Atm pc games come out with min,mid,recomended specs on the box at a per game rate...right? No mandate ,ita just what the game dev chooses..and pc owners better snap to it with their HW upgrade plans. MS want to use the Xbox brand to classify these tiers more explicitly . Xb1 as min, Scorpio as mid, and max is left to the upper tier of pc gamers to settle on. As time moves fwd that mid Scorpio tier becomes min, and well...xb1 gets left behind ..but in a per game basis and swept under the carpet.
And Sony at least will hold to it. There is zero reason not to.
Scorpio games have to run on xbone, so neo isn't going to be outclassed by ms software anytime soon ..and when Sony finally feels the pressures of being CPU limited...they simply drop hints for the kinda fresh start experience you'll get from ps5 in 2019.which won't be restricted in terms of ps4 needing to be able to play it's sw.
EG makes the mistake that this forward compatibility mandate from Sony is the plan for all subsequent consoles.its not. It's only for the mid life cycle refresh. Sony are still sticking to the @8 year life cycle we are used to. And then the fresh start.
MS though...they are. But...it's basically in the loose terms the EG article describes..and that's nothing new..it's the pc way. Although what MS are trying to do is tidy that up a bit. Atm pc games come out with min,mid,recomended specs on the box at a per game rate...right? No mandate ,ita just what the game dev chooses..and pc owners better snap to it with their HW upgrade plans. MS want to use the Xbox brand to classify these tiers more explicitly . Xb1 as min, Scorpio as mid, and max is left to the upper tier of pc gamers to settle on. As time moves fwd that mid Scorpio tier becomes min, and well...xb1 gets left behind ..but in a per game basis and swept under the carpet.
...Scatter...
Banned
More drastic effects are usually seen:
Low
Ultra
Is that same time of day in game?
AMD flops are not comparable to Nvidia ones. 6 AMD TFlops is basically 4x what Xbox one has. Xbox one is only just hitting 1080p/30 and often is sub-1080p to maintain framerate. So 4x that performance will barely be enough for 4K/30 at the same detail level as XB1 games. I can see plenty of games using dynamic resolution and dropping below 4K regularly to maintain framerates.
Bitch Pudding
Member
I guess no one here denies the advantages of 4k. We just have the draw-backs on graphics fidelity, even on a 6TF console, in mind, which is why actually most of us hope devs stick to 1080p and make the best out of it.
RedAssedApe
Banned
Dynamic res?
Fnord
Member
The way Sony is doing it? Yeah. My 4K TV is starved for native content and I want to start watching 4K Blu-Rays in all their glory. The way MS is doing it? I'm not convinced. I honestly don't see them being able to push 4K native games by next holiday season. Not in a box that costs under $500. Not in a box that's using currently available technology. I see them promising 4K gaming and ending up cheating on it on a regular basis.
I feel the question though is if consumers will find native 4K preferable to having majorly improved graphics given the vast majority of things they're watching on their 4K TV are going to be 720p, 1080i, or 1080p anyway.
Even in the video game arena, Battlefield 4, Watch Dogs, and Battlefront are three of the best selling games of this generation and don't output at 1080p, and all of them attracted a lot of attention with their visual quality. That's despite 1080p definitely being the standard by then.
I'm expecting the wealthiest publishers to aim for 1080p to try and significantly outclass the production values and visual quality of competing games at 4K. We had a few 1080p games early last gen as well, but developers ended up majorly favoring 720p, and a lot of them started going sub-native in a quest to compete visually, so I'm having a hard time imagining the industry sticking to a 4K standard.
That's what i think too, i've got a overclocked GTX 980 and i7 CPU, still running latest games with high details in 4k is tough, don't know how Scorpio will be able to handle those with a 6TF GPU and a likely low cost CPU, especially since games should get even more demanding by then...i guess we will see though i'm not confident at all about that, also i think that all these efforts to reach 4K will just hurt videogames overall "evolution" from next console i'd rather have those 6TF+ to achieve rock steady 1080p/60Fps plus mind blowing textures, physics and post processing effect, lights, shadows, particles etc, that's what to me makes a game really look better rather than more pixels
I wasn't aware that grass and trees grew so much in a day (for what it is worth It just looks like the same instant, settings can be changed on the fly you know).
...Scatter...
Banned
Now you're aware. Clearly the major difference is lighting, not grass.
The sky looks identical in color and lighting, so I have to imagine it is.
oneofthose
Banned
Does 1080p look like a blurry mess on a 4k tv like with a 1080p outputting a 480p image.
No
It's exactly 4x the pixels so you can do a square upscaling. 1080p content looks the same on a 4k TV as it does on a 1080p TV, which is a big part of why many OK with staying at that res.
Leyasu
Banned
If the game has to be compromised to hell to achieve it, then yes I am against it
ALLseeingEYE
Member
You have an interesting point man, and while both of us are assuming a lot here, I very highly doubt Scorpio is using last-gen AMD technology, so the 4x power comparison, is a bit suspect. Also remember that X1 wasn't designed well for a 1080p spec, especially considering the miniscule side of the ESRAM, while Scorpio is obviously targeting 4k right off the bat as a core design feature.
If I was Microsoft, and I announced a native 4k console at E3 after bungling my last system launch, I sure as hell would do everything in my power to ensure that doesn't happen again, and that I hit my targets. Also, if I wanted to target 4K as a main feature on current-gen technology, I currently have a lot of technology out now to base my research off of. I imagine they have a very clear idea of what technology they need to get the results they need. It's probably more about timing things so that the cost reduces enough to make it viable, rather than whether or not MS is going to be able to find sufficient technology. They are in no position to bullshit consumers.
Suzushiiro
Banned
I would imagine that the power target for both of these consoles is the ability to play games at 4K with the same settings otherwise as the base consoles. It would be nice to have a "4K with same settings" vs "1080p with enhanced settings" toggle, but I doubt most devs would want to bother, if Sony/MS allowed it in the first place.
That said, yeah, most games will probably be 1080p or 1440p and put the bulk of the extra horsepower into better textures/effects/AA/etc, barring a mandate from Sony and/or MS that they have to run at 4K.
That's not an issue of processing power, though, so much as an issue of the games' programming. It's a somewhat common thing for console-exclusive games to have their game logic be bound to the rendering framerate to the point where the game will break if your framerate is above/below that, so most ports of these games to better hardware just keep the old framerate lock rather than re-program shit to make it work at a higher/variable framerate.
That said, yeah, most games will probably be 1080p or 1440p and put the bulk of the extra horsepower into better textures/effects/AA/etc, barring a mandate from Sony and/or MS that they have to run at 4K.
That's not an issue of processing power, though, so much as an issue of the games' programming. It's a somewhat common thing for console-exclusive games to have their game logic be bound to the rendering framerate to the point where the game will break if your framerate is above/below that, so most ports of these games to better hardware just keep the old framerate lock rather than re-program shit to make it work at a higher/variable framerate.
And that's exactly what they should do.
jim2point0
Banned
The reason it looks so different is cloud cover. Sometimes the sun will be hidden and you get a more shaded look. The bottom image is what happens when the clouds move a bit and the sun shines through. This can give you some different looks even at the same time of day. AC: Unity does the same thing (and some other games, I'm sure).