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Is 4K the best way to use the power of Scorpio and PS4K? Digital Foundry unconvinced
- Thread starter ShogunDarius
- Start date
My heart is bleeding when I think about how HDR brings more perceived image quality over higher resolution and it has close to 0 performance penalty. But as a marketing bullet point 4k flat out wins, unfortunately. Waste of GPU cycles, bumping the resolution is. And resolution is also view distance dependent whereas benefits of HDR or higher Fps is beneficial in more situations. I'm not even going to mention how much more expensive shaders devs can cram if they are not going to shoot for more pixels.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Not many people have 4k stuff, would rather them try and make games with UC4 IQ and of course make sure the frame rate is stable.
100% of the time for me.
1080p60 @ Ultra thankyouverymuch
4k gaming can wait another 3 or 4 years. Hell i played 640~720p games for probably 5 years on a 1080p tv, i'll survive. Tech just isnt there yet. Look at what Battlefront can do on PS4, theres no way you could do that at 4k60 even on todays beefiest PC. I want to see ridiculously good AA, motion blur, GI, etc...
4k gaming can wait another 3 or 4 years. Hell i played 640~720p games for probably 5 years on a 1080p tv, i'll survive. Tech just isnt there yet. Look at what Battlefront can do on PS4, theres no way you could do that at 4k60 even on todays beefiest PC. I want to see ridiculously good AA, motion blur, GI, etc...
"Were" is the key word here.
8th generation consoles are essentially nothing more than pcs at this point, low spec pcs at that. You're not going to get the same late game rewards you got from people deciphering how the fuck the hardware works as you did with stuff like the cell. What's there is there, and we've known what was there was mediocre since before these consoles launched. It's the biggest reason why these stopgap systems are coming.
This. Couldn't agree more on every single point. I'd rather have an amazing experience at 1080p than a half baked one just to check off a 4K box.
I dont think devs have really capitalized on GPGPU yet, besides probably Sony first party maybe. Its a real untapped resource that could add quite a few late-game gains. No clue on how easy/hard it is though
I haven't tried a 4k tv so I wouldn't know, but I really do prefer the best picture/image quality possible over anything else other than fps. So I would always choose the higher res. Wonder if ps4 lvl of graphics games can be made in 4k 60 fps. Ps4 neo is probably just for res bump and the next gen ps is for both.
ethomaz
Banned
When using the same hardware (AMD GPU) you can direct conpared the FLOPS... that is measurable fact.
Now what you are talking about is efficiency or how do you make all these FLOPS works via optimizations.
But today the difference between PC and console use of the FLOPS is < 5%.
Computer
Member
If I see Halo running side by side at 4k and at 1080p it is not going to be a big enough jump in visuals to make me want to buy another 500 dollar console. I am so annoyed by 4k right now. So much more can be improved if they would ditch the 4k talk. AI, amount of AI on screen, frame rate, lighting, animation. I could go on and on. I would much rather have a CGI looking game running at 1080 then an Xbox one looking game running at 4k.
Elven_Star
Member
Please don't take away 1080p30 from my OG PS4. That's all I ask 
ZeezbruhTV
Member
Require 60 fps. 1080/2k is fine
MikeE21286
Member
I have very little myself.
jim2point0
Banned
2K being 1080p? Downsampled to what?
I honestly have no clue what people mean when they say 2K anymore. I think people are just making up terms.
The problem with this (and maybe others have pointed it out already is that there aren't a lot of 2560x1440 TVs out there. Most people are going to have a 1920x1080 TV, or a 3840x2160 TV.
Definitely not worth pursuing on Neo based one the leaked specs. Ideally I would love to see 1080/60 on Neo and 1440/60 on Scorpio with higher settings than the standard consoles. Keep XBO and PS4 the 30fps targets for most AAA games and allow for some visual refinements and higher frame rates on the iterations.
This thread has apparently turned into Podcast Unlocked all of a sudden.
Reallink
Member
That's not how it works. I would take 4K Ultra, but with medium shadows, basic SSAO, and a lower level AA. There are smarter trade offs to make than just across the board dropping shit to medium or low. It's not uncommon for 1 or 2 settings in "Ultra" to account for 50%+ of your performance tax.
Bubba_Sparks
Member
Even a 1080 doesn't offer 4K 60FPS and that card cost ~$850 CAD. So obviously all of this talk about real 4K gaming is bullshit. I am thinking the best possible outcome for the Scorpio is a GPU roughly in line with a GTX 970, which is in no way a 4K capable card in any realistic sense. With the PS4K/Neo probably offering even less GPU power I can't imagine it being capable of 4K gaming to any significant extent.
MikeE21286
Member
If you're talking maxed out settings. Then yes you're not getting 4K/60/Max on all games with a 1080.
However dial down the frame rate (which consoles tend to do) and also dial down some of the settings and you can achieve 4K/30/High.
I just think people expecting maxed out settings like a PC will be disappointed.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Yea thats how I feel
Deaf Spacker
Memb
I'd rather have amazing looking games running at 1080P and 60 FPS than 4K and 30 FPS with graphic options on 'medium' or whatever and it frustrates me that Microsoft will be focusing on 4K.
Imagine Forza Horizon running at 60 FPS with all the bells and whistles...
Imagine Forza Horizon running at 60 FPS with all the bells and whistles...
Bubba_Sparks
Member
Yeah, I was speaking specifically about maxed out settings. Then again, it is an almost $1000 GPU in Canada so I would expect you to run it at a res that gives you 60FPS with max settings.
I find it interesting how all of a sudden since Sony has decided to go the souped up 1080p route thats become good enough. 18 months out Microsoft says we are building a 4k system with no compromises. Yet some doubting them and saying no just me better 1080p. If the situation was flipped and Sony was going for a true 4k and Microsoft was just building a system to play 1080p games better there would be a 200+ page thread about it. Hop in the DeLorean folks, the future is 4K gaming.
ShogunDarius
Member
Downsample a 2,560 x 1,440 (prefered) resolution or actual 2K 2048 x 1536 ( or another res near that, that scales well, depending on the aspect ratio the dev wants to use) image to 1080P, but keep 60FPS rather than go 4K 30FPS. That's what I meant
Found a res that someone recommended for a PC to downsample from 2715x1527
Robot Pants
Member
I don't care. Just give me the ps4 that I love with a 4k Blu ray player inside for the same price I paid. I'll buy it day one
The potential problem here is that despite 6 TF of power and 320 GB of bandwidth , the next xbox will still only be as powerful as a PC built in 2014.
Was that enough to run 4K games ? well , barely, I mean you could set the detail settings to a mixture of medium/high and get 30 fps (although if SLI/Crossfire was enabled and ran properly you could do better). So all we can manage even with project scorpion is the average game from THIS generation of consoles running at 4K 30 FPS. PS3/360 level games can probably manage 4K 60 fps and anything lower detail than that well, the sky is the limit - I suppose the real advantage here is VR gaming - 960X1080 per eye at 60 FPS with todays graphics is almost do-able on MS new box. But VR is a hard sell, telling people with 4K TV's that they will have a new console to play in a year is an easy sell.
Sony on the other hand... well they could easily bring out the PS4NEO , if it's this year like rumors suggest - in the same way as MS just announced the XB1s. It can render in HDR using HDMI 2.0 , 4K bluray /media playback coupled with a a very good upscaler and perhaps a developer mandate that every game running on the NEO has to be at least 1920X1080p (to allow for easy upscaling). There's enough power under the hood of the Neo to lock all those stuttery 30-40 fps PS4 games at 60 FPS too , which means VR can also look better.
So really, are either of these new consoles real 4K gaming machines ? nah not so much. Sony's locks them in as a real 1080p powerhouse (which as digital foundry suggests is what most people play games on anyway) and MS , next year locks them in as the only console that can actually run a game at 4K resolution. Probably not well mind you but they will be the first. It puts them in a pretty good power position going forward because I'd wager sony won't update the 4K to a potential PS5 until 10nm chips are available. We are nearing the end of silicon which means any increase in power will need a major rethink going forward. This means even if Sony made a 2019 PS5 using the smallest available chipsets and manufacturing techniques there's actually a limit to how much could be crammed into the box and that limit might be an 8-10 teraflop machine.
Was that enough to run 4K games ? well , barely, I mean you could set the detail settings to a mixture of medium/high and get 30 fps (although if SLI/Crossfire was enabled and ran properly you could do better). So all we can manage even with project scorpion is the average game from THIS generation of consoles running at 4K 30 FPS. PS3/360 level games can probably manage 4K 60 fps and anything lower detail than that well, the sky is the limit - I suppose the real advantage here is VR gaming - 960X1080 per eye at 60 FPS with todays graphics is almost do-able on MS new box. But VR is a hard sell, telling people with 4K TV's that they will have a new console to play in a year is an easy sell.
Sony on the other hand... well they could easily bring out the PS4NEO , if it's this year like rumors suggest - in the same way as MS just announced the XB1s. It can render in HDR using HDMI 2.0 , 4K bluray /media playback coupled with a a very good upscaler and perhaps a developer mandate that every game running on the NEO has to be at least 1920X1080p (to allow for easy upscaling). There's enough power under the hood of the Neo to lock all those stuttery 30-40 fps PS4 games at 60 FPS too , which means VR can also look better.
So really, are either of these new consoles real 4K gaming machines ? nah not so much. Sony's locks them in as a real 1080p powerhouse (which as digital foundry suggests is what most people play games on anyway) and MS , next year locks them in as the only console that can actually run a game at 4K resolution. Probably not well mind you but they will be the first. It puts them in a pretty good power position going forward because I'd wager sony won't update the 4K to a potential PS5 until 10nm chips are available. We are nearing the end of silicon which means any increase in power will need a major rethink going forward. This means even if Sony made a 2019 PS5 using the smallest available chipsets and manufacturing techniques there's actually a limit to how much could be crammed into the box and that limit might be an 8-10 teraflop machine.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
This is why I think Neo hits the right power/price point. I suspect Microsoft was caught off guard and late to the game, and as a result they couldn't launch a console a year later and have it merely match the same specs. But in reality, that additional power seems to be wasteful unless you allow for Scorpio exclusive games.
Neo is going for 1080p60, while Scorpio seems like it's going for either 4K30 or slightly above 1080p60, basically overkill for the vast majority of consumers. The jump from 1080p to 4k is marginal at best, too, I think the power is better used by making 1080p more pretty or better performing. Frankly, I'm more excited about running something like Horizon or God of War at 60 frames than I am about running them at 4K30.
4K target seems more important for next-gen in 2020/2021. Even then, I doubt the importance of 4K for anything other than VR.
Neo is going for 1080p60, while Scorpio seems like it's going for either 4K30 or slightly above 1080p60, basically overkill for the vast majority of consumers. The jump from 1080p to 4k is marginal at best, too, I think the power is better used by making 1080p more pretty or better performing. Frankly, I'm more excited about running something like Horizon or God of War at 60 frames than I am about running them at 4K30.
4K target seems more important for next-gen in 2020/2021. Even then, I doubt the importance of 4K for anything other than VR.
I agree wholeheartedly, and I don't quite get why the push for 4K is so strong right now. I'd personally prefer it if MS and Sony use the extra processing headroom to push fidelity at 1080p and improve frame rates rather than shoot for such an astronomically high resolution that would eat up valuable performance.
They should go for both and I think they will go for both. After all, it's better to sell your system to a 1080p TV owner than not at all.
SeeNoWeevil
Member
The display industry needs 4K to convince people who have no desire to upgrade their TV to upgrade their TV. Generally, gamers will buy whatever the display industry's marketing department tell them to buy.
4K TVs are hitting acceptable price points faster than 1080p did, but there is also the fundamental problem that a lot of people will be happy with their 1080p flat panels for years to come. There is a content pipeline problem that extends beyond gaming - UHD Blu-Ray push is minor compared to the initial format release. Big cable/satellite providers do not seem to be doing much (I switched from DirecTV to xfinity in the past year - no 4K on either). So we are not seeing this overnight transformation like we did in 2006.
This and VR seem to be the big marketing message, since genuine big game exclusives are not happening. We will have to see if the market at large can be sold on this in the next 17 months, otherwise another approach will have to be taken.
This and VR seem to be the big marketing message, since genuine big game exclusives are not happening. We will have to see if the market at large can be sold on this in the next 17 months, otherwise another approach will have to be taken.
Netflix and other streaming services are going to be the major 4K media providers. UHD Blu Ray will obviously appeal to videophiles offering higher bitrates but 4K streaming will be where the casual movie/TV watcher goes.
JumPeRJumPzZ
Banned
Yup, dont care about 4k if the effects etc remain the same...
I rather have 1080p or 2k Res and all the other stuff improved. Better Shadow Effects, lighting etc
FunkyDealer
Banned
Just stick with actually hitting native 1080p @ 60/30 FPS, please.
Use the power for better texture filtering, longer draw-distances, better dynamic shadows, better AA, more tessellation and parallax textures, better framerates etc.
I don't want to struggle at 4K when we can kick ass at 1080p.
Use the power for better texture filtering, longer draw-distances, better dynamic shadows, better AA, more tessellation and parallax textures, better framerates etc.
I don't want to struggle at 4K when we can kick ass at 1080p.
Keep that PC crap out of console games.
SEGAvangelist
Member
Neo should definitely never target 4k. I think we'll see a lot of dynamic res games with 4k max for Scorpio, though. Neo is just in a very weird in between generation place, so I'm not sure what their plan is for target resolutions.
makingmusic476
Member
I just hope 4k leads to the end of discernable aliasing.
Though I won't be buying a 4k TV anytime soon.
Though I won't be buying a 4k TV anytime soon.
Yh which is why I don't get why this thing always comes up. Unless devs start to put options like in the Nioh demo to choose between framerate/IQ. Outside of Sony's mandate for 1080p on Neo devs will likely continue to choose IQ vs framerate on consoles for the foreseeable future.
JumPeRJumPzZ
Banned
Microsoft should have released the upgraded Xbox that was planned for this year like Sony is doing with Neo. And then they could do that 4k stuff 4-5 years later with the real Console jump.