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Is Homebrew on Consoles Dead? Revisiting fail0verflow's 2013 Wii U Blog Post

QaaQer

Member
The PS4 hack thread reminded me of this blog post from fail0verflow

fail0verflow (2013) said:
When the Wii U came out, our hacker instincts kicked in and we started looking into ways of breaking into the hardware. A few days before launch we...reached most of the milestones required to be able to say that we hacked the device; without going into details, there is basically no security left to break into, other than a mostly unimportant step of the boot process. What would remain is the tedious work of developing the open frameworks required to bootstrap a homebrew community, documenting everything, reverse engineering all of the new hardware, developing a persistent exploit (think tethered vs. untethered iPhone jailbreak, except without any extra hardware or cables), and packaging it all up.

Over the next few months, interest faded. I took a break to work on other projects. There wasn’t much of a reaction from the Wii homebrew community. Is it really worth going through all that effort when we already have open devices that are affordable and widely available? About 31 trustworthy people, most of them well-known people in the homebrew community, have access to what we developed, yet nobody stepped up to start working on a homebrew platform for the Wii U.

At the same time, there is an eternal clash between the homebrew community and those interested in pirating games. Writing homebrew software and frameworks is rather difficult - it requires new code to be written to support the hardware, which must be reverse engineered first. Convincing a game console to load copied games is comparatively simpler, as only the bare minimum amount of code patches required to convince the game/OS to load the game from alternate storage media are required. For example, on the PS3, the kernel payload of the first game loaders was a tiny system call patch, and I wrote an (unreleased) Wii USB loader using existing homebrew frameworks in a couple hundred lines of code, as a proof of concept. Every console after the PS2 was initially broken to run open homebrew code, and only later did piracy show up (excluding disc-drive-based hacks, which I consider a different category).

I think we may have reached the point where homebrew on closed game consoles is no longer appealing. The effort required to develop and maintain an environment for a big, complex modern game console is huge. The cat and mouse game with the manufacturer requires ongoing effort. There is a very real threat of litigation. Game pirates would become not just big users of the result of those efforts, but by far the overwhelming majority (not because there are more pirates, but because there are fewer homebrewers). The fact that the Wii U isn’t selling nearly as well as the Wii did doesn’t help drive enthusiasm either.

I could be wrong, of course. Maybe it’s just that I have a full-time job now and less of a chance to spend all-nighters staring at assembly code. Maybe there are tons of prospective Wii U homebrew developers quietly waiting in the sidelines for a release. Maybe we’ve just gotten lazy.

We could just release everything as-is, of course. However, we tried that with the PS3, and the results were not only disappointing, but we actually ended up in an undeserved legal mess. Homebrew for the PS3 is basically nonexistent, and all anyone cares about is piracy. This is not a situation which we want to see happen again.

Tldnr: There is no reason to hack modern consoles aside from piracy because we have many many better options for living room mediaboxes/pcs now. As such, the console homebrew scene is no longer viable.

That was in 2013, was he right? What can we expect from hacked consoles going forward.
 
Well, yeah. With phones doing a lot of what a modded console does without having to potentially break it and Computers being a thing there's little reason for homebrew outside of piracy.
It's weird, was just thinking of this guy like a minute before you posted this.
 

bomblord1

Banned
I think as long as there have been homebrew there has been better alternatives. When the PS2 was out PC's existed. Last generation set top boxes became a big thing.

I thought the appeal of homebrew was similar to the appeal of the demo scene making demo's for the Commodore 64. The point is to say you did it, stretch your brain, and work around a problem.

Much like a puzzle or a guy who buys an old junker to fix it up.
 
Wii homebrew enthusiasts moved to Raspberry Pi, while DS and PSP homebrew is useless because there's so much more you can do just on your phone or tablet.
With that, all three major homebrew platforms are abandoned with no successors on console/handheld market, regarding homebrew possibilities and affordable price.
 
Android and Windows boxes are a third of the price of consoles like Wii U and have more capable CPUs.

There's little reason to homebrew on consoles like there used to be.
 
Let-It-Die-logo.jpg


Too much drama...
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
Wii homebrew enthusiasts moved to Raspberry Pi, while DS and PSP homebrew is useless because there's so much more you can do just on your phone or tablet.

I disagree. Emulators on phones are not that great outside of a few types of games (RPG, turn-based strategy...) because of the lack of buttons. Retroarch 3DS, on the other hand, is fantastic and I'd love for 3DS homebrew to get bigger.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
Control-F
Region lock
0 results

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So long as Ninty does this that could be one reason to want it.

Or just technical curiosity too.
 

DrXym

Member
Wii homebrew enthusiasts moved to Raspberry Pi, while DS and PSP homebrew is useless because there's so much more you can do just on your phone or tablet.

I played around with EmuStation on the Raspberry Pi B and it's capable of emulating 8 and 16-bit consoles but emulating the N64 is out of its league even when its overclocked. The Pi 2 might be able to manage it and the PSX though I doubt it could do the Wii.

For anything more you probably need a PC, but there is no shortage of cheap PCs. Could find a PC that could emulate everything up to a Wii and PS2 without spending more on parts than a PS4 console would cost.
 
I think the one console that would be a good counter example is the PSTV, and that's because Sony's current firmware and default apps are so godawful and restrictive that it you need to hack it just to play PS1 and PSP games.

The problem is that the Vita hacking scene hasn't much progress on hacking the kernel, which is the only thing keeping them from possibly enabling external hard drive support, which would be the single most useful hack for the PSTV.
 
I disagree. Emulators on phones are not that great outside of a few types of games (RPG, turn-based strategy...) because of the lack of buttons.

However, there are plenty of Android "game tablets" and Shield-like devices.

The Pi 2 might be able to manage it and the PSX though I doubt it could do the Wii.

Last time I checked, Pi 2 handled SNES SuperFX, N64 and PS1 emulation quite nifty.
 
Mostly yes. You still get the occasional update or new project for older platforms like Xbox, Wii and PSP but honestly for modern stuff you've got 3DS which is has a small amount of neat homebrew due to some great efforts in that community opening it up to many more than originally possible, but piracy is alive and well there too. Not as bad as previous gen, probably on the level of 360/PS3 piracy.

Vita has a small chance of piracy with some dongle thing, but honestly it looks so niche it won't do anything to do it. Homebrew was given a crack of the whip but due to nobody really caring and it's limitations that fell off a cliff.

Wii U is wide open on a specific firmware. Initially only used for RAM patching, it's primary usage to the end user is... um... piracy. I seriously don't know of any actual homebrew applications for the Wii U other than the one that lets you load game dumps. So, yeah, they were definitely on the money.

Xbox One has made no progress, and PS4, if it gets anywhere, will be so niche you'll hear less homebrew news about it here than the Wii U which actually DID get opened up to a decent amount of people.
 

cacildo

Member
What would people even hope to see in terms of homebrew on a console?

Emulators

Several emulators

Nintendo 64, playstation 1, Saturn, Dreamcast

Nintendo 64 was released 20 years ago and the enulation still a disaster.
"Not64" was released for the Wii some time ago and i was impressed by the simple fact that A FEW games actually work

I dont even know if there are working emulators of Saturn and Dreamcast systems


Or NeoGeo, to be honest

Ive kinda had some hope to see better emulators of these systems being developed for the WiiU

Yet no one want to develop it (but everybody wants to play)
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Wii homebrew enthusiasts moved to Raspberry Pi, while DS and PSP homebrew is useless because there's so much more you can do just on your phone or tablet.
With that, all three major homebrew platforms are abandoned with no successors on console/handheld market, regarding homebrew possibilities and affordable price.
I'm curious, is it possible to setup a Raspberry Pi to output at 15khz 240p? That's precisely what makes emulation and homebrew on the original Wii so darn interesting. Very few devices today actually support that resolution but it's the only way to correctly output older low resolution games.

I stick to original hardware usually, but it's nice having an alternative and the Wii does a very nice job.
 
I disagree. Emulators on phones are not that great outside of a few types of games (RPG, turn-based strategy...) because of the lack of buttons. Retroarch 3DS, on the other hand, is fantastic and I'd love for 3DS homebrew to get bigger.

No lies there. I like my iPhone and iPad, but not for emulation.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Homebrew is always a worthy goal. Hacking a platform into submission is often a tricky business in both technical and reap-what-you-sow aspects. In this regard I can respect a hacker's view not to publicize their findings. That does not mean people should strop trying to come up with a more homebrew-viable solution, though.
 
I disagree. Emulators on phones are not that great outside of a few types of games (RPG, turn-based strategy...) because of the lack of buttons. Retroarch 3DS, on the other hand, is fantastic and I'd love for 3DS homebrew to get bigger.
Eh, since the days of getting the Wii and PS3 controllers to connect via Bluetooth, Android emulators have come with built in controller support, including controller grips and universal Bluetooth controller support.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
However, there are plenty of Android "game tablets" and Shield-like devices.

Oh, right. I always forget about those. Still, having access the DS/3DS library as well as NES/SNES/Genesis/GBA/etc. on the same well-built portable beats buying those game tablets IMO.
 

Xion_Stellar

People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
Outside of wanting to be "That Guy" that says "I did it first!" and being able "hack" a Console first there's hardly any reason for homebrew to be limited to a Console now as there are so many better alternatives.

And of course piracy.

Look at the the reactions they are having on that PS4 topic were one guy (without showing any proof mind you) allegedly found an exploit on a 1+ year old firmware.You got some people fearing that this will lead to piracy and we run into a PSP scenerio again and you got some posters that are almost borderline asking for piracy.

But just like the guys over the years that have "claimed" that the PS Vita has been hacked (not talking about PSP/PS1 Piracy/Emulation here) I don't think a meaningful amount of actual Homebrew will come out of it or piracy in general.

I'm on the side that says that just as long as Consoles Homebrew doesn't lead into Piracy territory than Homebrew away.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Maybe, console hardware isn't all that interesting these days, I don't see what motivation you would have to write homebrew for it over a PC or a phone.
 
Emulators

Several emulators

Nintendo 64, playstation 1, Saturn, Dreamcast

Nintendo 64 was released 20 years ago and the enulation still a disaster.
"Not64" was released for the Wii some time ago and i was impressed by the simple fact that A FEW games actually work

I dont even know if there are working emulators of Saturn and Dreamcast systems


Or NeoGeo, to be honest

Ive kinda had some hope to see better emulators of these systems being developed for the WiiU

Yet no one want to develop it (but everybody wants to play)
Man, just get on Cowboom and get a $40 Windows tablet and a mini HDMI cable. You can play all those platforms quite well. Check out sites like liliputing for small under 100 windows boxes as well. They will throttle less.
 

NOLA_Gaffer

Banned
I agree. When there's more than a dozen different open-source products on the market designed explicitly for homebrew, there's no need to crack open the consoles.
 

MUnited83

For you.
What would people even hope to see in terms of homebrew on a console?
I'd love to have a Showtime(media center) port for PS4, since the media player Sony did is shitty as fuck. Emulation of PS2 and even Wii would be pretty nice as well.
I agree. When there's more than a dozen different open-source products on the market designed explicitly for homebrew, there's no need to crack open the consoles.
I'd argue otherwise. Every console should eventually be cracked open completely to make future emulation development as easy as possible.
 

Ogawa-san

Member
I used to use a DS and PSP as media players because the alternatives were expensive, dedicated devices. Nowadays I update everything without batting an eye. The same way I don't pirate PC games anymore because Steam is hassle-free, there's nothing that could be done hacking a console that'd be worth joining the cat and mouse game.

Homebrew on consoles isn't interesting anymore, piracy will always have people interested and emulators... That I just don't get it. In how many different devices and for how long do people want to replay their 20 year old favorites?

Control-F
Region lock
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So long as Ninty does this that could be one reason to want it.

Or just technical curiosity too.
Would you trust a hack to enable region lock? If you ever get tired of playing cat and mouse, you'll end with a bunch of games you can't play anymore.
 

cacildo

Member
Man, just get on Cowboom and get a $40 Windows tablet and a mini HDMI cable. You can play all those platforms quite well. Check out sites like liliputing for small under 100 windows boxes as well. They will throttle less.

I would buy a new device IF it could give me at least perfect N64/ps1 emulation

Perfect

But if its "some games work... with some issues" im better saving money and space and keep playing on my Wii.

And hoping on wiiu
 

Wereroku

Member
They just hacked PS4. I don't think so.

They don't mean dead as in not able to be done more that no one is going to bother. You can currently get better emulator results from cheap PC's than either console. Basically any cracking of either OS is really only going to be used for piracy at this point. Also even though it's hand waved away usually most emulation done on consoles would also be considered piracy since most don't own the games they emulate.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
I would buy a new device IF it could give me at least perfect N64/ps1 emulation

Perfect

But if its "some games work... with some issues" im better saving money and space and keep playing on my Wii.

And hoping on wiiu

Buy an HDMI cable, find a USB controller or adapter, install Retroarch, plug your PC into your TV and enjoy!
 

Makai

Member
It would be cool if Smash 4 got the same kind of modding scene that Brawl did. Brawl Minus was awesome.
 
I would buy a new device IF it could give me at least perfect N64/ps1 emulation

Perfect

But if its "some games work... with some issues" im better saving money and space and keep playing on my Wii.

And hoping on wiiu

You do know that any and all emulation developments happen on Windows first. If a game doesn't run accurately on any Windows emu, then it's extremely rare that it'll run better or be more accurate on any other platform, especially since the overwhelming majority of those emus are ported from Windows

And it depends on what you mean by perfect. A 7" HP W8/10 tab can run pretty much every PSX and N64 title fullspeed. Now, its possible that an obscure game could have black bars present on the side during sentai transformation scenes or something, but older systems have been documented extremely well to the point of 99% accuracy or better.
 

Breakbeat

Banned
Buy an HDMI cable, find a USB controller or adapter, install Retroarch, plug your PC into your TV and enjoy!

N64 emulation in general on any platform is still in a pretty sorry state, and ePSXe has many problems still to be resolved. I've heard Xebra is nice but it comes with zero bells and whistles.
 

heyf00L

Member
I think as long as there have been homebrew there has been better alternatives. When the PS2 was out PC's existed. Last generation set top boxes became a big thing.

The great exception to this was the PSP. The closest thing to it when it came out was the iPod; not a great input device for anything but scrolling lists. So PSP homebrew was amazing.

Since then I haven't felt the need to check out any homebrew. I only installed the Homebrew Channel on my Wii to dump my GameCube game saves.
 

Xion_Stellar

People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
Oh yeah to add to my post just like the guy in the OP said there's legal repercussion if you decide to go public with your findings and the parent company of that device has a problem with it so unless you want to end up like George Hotz there's no benefit in getting into a legal battle just to make someone's day for allowing Homebrew/Piracy on a platform of their choice.
 

cacildo

Member
Buy an HDMI cable, find a USB controller or adapter, install Retroarch, plug your PC into your TV and enjoy!

Im NOT gonna plug my pc into my tv

My wife is already mad that i plugged both the Wii and WiiU on the bigger tv

I dont want to buy any new device. I already own too much trash. Tablet, Wii, WiiU, Home theater, cable box, media box. Its too much.

I only wish the WiiU moved forward on emulation like the Wii did, and beyond (because more power), so i could ditch the Wii once and for all and buy the NX. Two game systems, nothing more.
 

Hcoregamer00

The 'H' stands for hentai.
I don't think it's dead. We've seen a pretty good scene spring up around the 3DS.

That's because the 240p screen is perfect because it is probably the first and last console to do perfect pixel to pixel emulation of the 16 bit generation and 32 bit gen.
 
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