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Is John Kricfalusi the most wretched person ever involved in animation?

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AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
2 Stupid Dogs is one of the finest shows in animation history. You had a soulless childhood, my friend. I used to stay up until midnight when I was 12 just to be able to see the same 2SD reruns over and over. I would gladly buy a series collection DVD. :p
 
terrene said:
Wow, then guess what? John K. has every right to be compared to other influential names in animation. It really doesn't matter if you fucktards find him funny or good - he did something important and influenced an entire industry. R&S was a watershed moment in animation and nobody cares what you think. Kthx.
I think I know who terrene really is! :O

John K has no place next to those names. He created a STYLE that several other people copied. Disney, Lasseter, Clampet, Blanc, etc, they revolutionized an art form. Disney and Pixar more so than anyone else in the industry. A watershed moment in animation history? Maybe accoding to him. John K found a way to make cheap slapstick animation with Flash. Fucking wow. I'll openly admit to loving how the guy draws women but for all the shit he talks he's got nothing on the old greats in terms of story, animation, characters, or over-all quality. I've seen student films with higher production values then his output.

GeneralIroh said:
Look at all the vile shit shows he has influenced.

Cow and Chicken
2 Stupid Dogs
Catdog
Angry Beavers
Megababies

What the fuck is wrong with Angry Beavers?
 

Bogus

Member
Truth be told I try not to pay much attention to his rants. I liked R&S as a kid, but hell, crude humor + prepubescent demographic = ratings and imitation. Was he influential? Sure, though he hasn't done anything of note since then. Is there a lot of trash that floods the animation scene nowadays? Definitely, but John K. is part of the problem. Maybe that's why he's so bitter nowadays -- he can't seem to recapture the "magic" that endeared his work to the masses. Or maybe he just likes to complain. Who knows?

Either way, I've always thought it funny that he rags on anime so much. As stated, a lot of garbage is being churned out everywhere, but Japan's gems shine as bright as any in the world. Just check out Five Centimeters Per Second if you don't believe me. Some of the best animation I've seen in years.
 
Bogus said:
Truth be told I try not to pay much attention to his rants. I liked R&S as a kid, but hell, crude humor + prepubescent demographic = ratings and imitation. Was he influential? Sure, though he hasn't done anything of note since then. Is there a lot of trash that floods the animation scene nowadays? Definitely, but John K. is part of the problem. Maybe that's why he's so bitter nowadays -- he can't seem to recapture the "magic" that endeared his work to the masses. Or maybe he just likes to complain. Who knows?

Either way, I've always thought it funny that he rags on anime so much. As stated, a lot of garbage is being churned out everywhere, but Japan's gems shine as bright as any in the world. Just check out Five Centimeters Per Second if you don't believe me. Some of the best animation I've seen in years.
I'm a big anime fan, and I can tell you right now that the first two seasons of R&S are infinitely better examples of animation than anything Makoto Shinkai has done. Unless Five Centimeters Per Second is somehow infinitely better than the other two wads of cinematic mayonnaise he directed. But yeah, he doesn't seem to appreciate any sort of foreign animation. Although he did have a post once on the blog about anime colour schemes being far ahead of anything in current American animation.

Seriously though, to anyone who seems to recall R&S as nothing but fart gags - go back and actually look at the key episodes from those first two seasons. There's more technical skill, visual experimentation, VA quality and character in those than you'll find in almost anything animated you'll see on TV today. He's a crotchety old man who's probably past his directorial prime, but he's anything but untalented.
 

7Th

Member
Bogus said:
Either way, I've always thought it funny that he rags on anime so much. As stated, a lot of garbage is being churned out everywhere, but Japan's gems shine as bright as any in the world. Just check out Five Centimeters Per Second if you don't believe me. Some of the best animation I've seen in years.

And here I used to believe you were part of the cool side of GAF...
 

Bogus

Member
7Th said:
And here I used to believe you were part of the cool side of GAF...

Hey, I'm cool! :[

I never said it was a good anime, just that I thought it was very pretty to watch. The post-process work was a bit excessive at times, but in the end I think it all blended together well to present some dazzling moments.

Buckfutter, I haven't seen anything else by Shinkai, so I wouldn't really know how 5cm/s compares to his other work. I just thought it served as a recent example of some quality animation that's coming out of Japan nowadays (among others, natch). Again, I'm just talking about visuals here.
 

Flynn

Member
The thing I really love about Ren and Stimpy are the perfomances.

Ren's freak outs in Space Madness and Cousin Sven are my favorite cartoon moments -- especially that scene in Cousin Sven, when Ren is describing how he's going to kill Stimpy.
 

7Th

Member
Bogus said:
Hey, I'm cool! :[

I never said it was a good anime, just that I thought it was very pretty to watch. The post-process work was a bit excessive at times, but in the end I think it all blended together well to present some dazzling moments.

Buckfutter, I haven't seen anything else by Shinkai, so I wouldn't really know how 5cm/s compares to his other work. I just thought it served as a recent example of some quality animation that's coming out of Japan nowadays (among others, natch). Again, I'm just talking about visuals here.

You could have said TokiKake for true visual greatness. :V
 

terrene

Banned
WordAssassin said:
John K has no place next to those names. He created a STYLE that several other people copied. Disney, Lasseter, Clampet, Blanc, etc, they revolutionized an art form.
With the exception of Disney, the difference you're attempting to portray here is neither substantiated or substantiable. Putting a question mark on the influence of R&S in its day is something like the fucktards who diss on Nirvana. All advances in animation since the days of Disney when he was figuring out how to put 2 and 2 together have been either technological or stylistic, the latter requiring an incredible alignment of vision, relatability, and instincts that are orthogonal to the status quo. Like I said, it really doesn't matter if it doesn't tickle your fancy - the mark was made for everbody who was paying attention at the time, therefore your jive-ass contrarian "opinion" doesn't get to count. And this:
John K found a way to make cheap slapstick animation with Flash. Fucking wow.
Is absolutely pathetic and has nothing to do with the larger point about his impact and relevance. They did not have flash in 1991.
 

Fireblend

Banned
7Th said:
And here I used to believe you were part of the cool side of GAF...
Hey, those clouds were pretty well-animated... or something...

About this guy, I've got to say I absolutely hate everything he's done. Not saying he sucks, but his gross, dark humor and style, how everything looks... it actually manages to sicken me. I hated it as a kid and I still can't stand it. I'm not denying the fact that he was pretty relevant to his area and a pretty good part of what's on TV takes a lot of stuff from his works, and I might be banned from the animation connoisseur GAF force, but I just can't appreciate it. :lol
 
terrene said:
All advances in animation since the days of Disney when he was figuring out how to put 2 and 2 together have been either technological or stylistic
That's actually exactly what I was getting at. :p

In terms of impact on the process of animation, Disney and Pixar have pushed it further than anyone else. Disney made the "first" feature-length animated film. He and his company did some of the first human-interacting-with-cartoon pictures ever, and then the best use of it decades later with WFRR. They had the first cartoon with sound, didn't they? (Steamboat Willie) They invented the technique of photocopying their animation test sketches directly onto cells (Used in 101 Dalmatians and Jungle Book). They seamlessly integrated CGI into 2D animated movies (Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, etc).
Pixar came along and made them a program that colors scanned cels on the computer. Pixar also made the first feature-length computer animated film. In every movie since Toy Story they have pushed the boundaries of what can be done in a CGI movie. They invent new technology in every movie they produce!

This is what I'm talking about when I say John K has no place in with those names. The folks at Disney and Pixar, and the Warner Bros of yesteryear, are constantly pioneering new ways and technologies in their craft. But when you look at his blog all he does is slag on Disney and Pixar movies, as if his output is somehow better or more substantial than what they've been doing. He talks as if he's some God of animation authority and the only thing that's not beneath him are those horrendously animated Hannah Barbarra cartoons from the 50s and things done by Chuck Jones and his kin at the WB. Even Disney's worst animated feature has better animation and production values then anything I've ever seen come out of John K.

I'm sorry. I just don't understand how Ren & Stimpy can be viewed as a "watershed" moment in the time line of animation history, or even be compared to things those other people/studios have done. And I'm putting away my disdain for JK to say that, I honestly don't see what's so important or special about that show. It was different, yes, it used some very... unique art at times, but I can't picture myself in an animation history class hearing the teacher say, "And this, 1991, that's when Ren & Stimpy first aired on Nickelodeon, forever changing the way cartoons were made." I am, however, open to hear your view on why it's such an amazing industry-altering achievement. Can you explain it to me?
 

terrene

Banned
WordAssassin said:
I'm sorry. I just don't understand how Ren & Stimpy can be viewed as a "watershed" moment in the time line of animation history, or even be compared to things those other people/studios have done. And I'm putting away my disdain for JK to say that, I honestly don't see what's so important or special about that show. It was different, yes, it used some very... unique art at times, but I can't picture myself in an animation history class hearing the teacher say, "And this, 1991, that's when Ren & Stimpy first aired on Nickelodeon, forever changing the way cartoons were made." I am, however, open to hear your view on why it's such an amazing industry-altering achievement. Can you explain it to me?
It didn't change anything about how cartoons are made and I'm sort of confused about why you're focusing so heavily on the technical aspects of the animation when I'm talking about its content. Before Ren & Stimpy, TV cartoons were not gross, graphic, subversive, dark, psychotic, adult-themed, and especially not satirical of retro animation. The creation of content that mimicked the past in mock-tribute/appreciation was basically the creation of a post-modern era in animation. The audience that [adult swim] (and probably CN in general) now caters to regularly with the entirety of its programming was not believed to exist until Ren & Stimpy found them. The other new animation shows that Nickelodeon debuted that year were Rugrats and Doug. None of this should be news to you.

In no animation timeline would R&S get a note for technical acheivement, but animation doesn't simply belong to the fucking nerds who actually care about that. It was a cultural milestone for animation, part of the new market for animation that was being felt out to a lesser degree by The Simpsons and with less impact or success by Liquid Television, and it had a new voice and a surreal tone that required media literacy to appreciate, meaning it required an audience that wasn't your average 3-10-year-old Saturday morning crowd.
 

Flynn

Member
terrene said:
It didn't change anything about how cartoons are made and I'm sort of confused about why you're focusing so heavily on the technical aspects of the animation when I'm talking about its content. Before Ren & Stimpy, TV cartoons were not gross, graphic, subversive, dark, psychotic, adult-themed, and especially not satirical of retro animation. The creation of content that mimicked the past in mock-tribute/appreciation was basically the creation of a post-modern era in animation. The audience that [adult swim] (and probably CN in general) now caters to regularly with the entirety of its programming was not believed to exist until Ren & Stimpy found them. The other new animation shows that Nickelodeon debuted that year were Rugrats and Doug. None of this should be news to you.

In no animation timeline would R&S get a note for technical acheivement, but animation doesn't simply belong to the fucking nerds who actually care about that. It was a cultural milestone for animation, part of the new market for animation that was being felt out to a lesser degree by The Simpsons and with less impact or success by Liquid Television, and it had a new voice and a surreal tone that required media literacy to appreciate, meaning it required an audience that wasn't your average 3-10-year-old Saturday morning crowd.

Well said. It's a cultural and stylistic impact that the man has had. He took the ball that Bakshi had been fumbling for the past 20 years and ran with it. It's him and Mike Judge who really helped cement animation as a viable, semi-adult art form in the U.S. at least.
 
WordAssassin said:
Hannah Barbarra cartoons from the 50s and things done by Chuck Jones and his kin at the WB.
Whoa whoa, it's fashionable to hate on chuck jones? You can't be serious. I remember when you joined this forum a few years, Assassin, and I'd never thought we'd be at odds.

You go to far.
 

Sapiens

Member
Ren & Stimpy was huge! I consider him right up there with legends like Chuck Jones. And I hate to break your bubble, but John K knows his fucking shit and he's not wrong all the time.

Why are people trying to deny John K had any significance?

Get over the fact that you don't agree with his opinion and grow up.


*waaaaaaaah disney and pirxar dicks so deep in my ears wwaaah*
 
Sapiens, it's his relevance that people are arguing. He can be disintegrated tomorrow and the world will be no difference. The only thing of note that he contributed was the awesome R&S show, but that was over a decade ago.
 

Novid

Banned
I am going to make this as clear as I can when it comes to John K.

As an artist, HE WAS one of the greatest cartoonists ever. However, his “organic” work is closer to a Sadian vision of masculinity than what than the people who he considered “the greatest animators of all time” (such as Bill Tyla). He and his Japanese counter parts (I don’t consider someone like Yuasa who is closer to his look, a counter part… In terms of Popularity- I compare him to the way the Otakus in this country compares Kishimoto, Oda, and Kibo, as the new Go Nagai, Osamu Teskua, and Leiji Matsumoto and in turn because of the utter lack of education about the animation world in the post modern era- the new (Chuck) Jones, Disney, Hanna Barbara)… have things in there work that hinders them.

John’s major problem, and in extension a major problem with many works coming from the 1990’s, outside of Evanglion, Batman TAS, Gargoyles and such series- he cannot tell a story LONGER than 15 min at a time. He uses the groteste art as he produces as the story but when its done longer than a certain time frame, he just continues to produce a sexual gag, a fart joke and so on to keep “the unwashed masses” entertained, while the whole point of the short was to tell the story in the allotted time frame. This is a major problem with the modern animation industry, because the writers write longer than 21 pages (for a 24 min episode) He writes under and that what kills him.

He also has a major problem with where people came from, i.e. the Cal Arts issue- with the Midwestern teenagers who still live with mother and draw anime etc, go to cal arts and don’t produce good TV animation, but Disney like retreads. This I somewhat agree with. There are certain people who shouldn’t be in this industry- they just want a paycheck and food- they should be working at walmart if you want that.

My problem is that there are those who are taught in the classical style, such as Jhonny Vasquez and Michael Gagne and produced such work that I feel is better overall than Ren and Stimpy… Organic work doesn’t have to be about the girls with BIG lips, short tits, HUGE ass. It can be simple as Madam Serapi’s legendary work Persoplis, and the new game made from Rolito (who is influenced by Michael Gagne’s work) Patapon. To make my point even clearer, Madam Serapi has CREATED the way to produced family animation for the next 25 years, just FOLLOW the steps SHE has done for this movie, and you will find respect not only with US, the jaded- but with the Generic “Hanna Montana” family etc- but John K hasn’t done such work and may never be able to because he has never faced such issues or pushes them aside because he’s a MAN’s MAN!, and he’s becoming increasingly jealous.

As a man, I don’t know what the heck he is. It might be better that way- because I don’t know and don’t want to know. But what I can gather? Hes bi- he’s doing Katie Rice (PLEASE, she’s good, but as GREAT as you say- YOURE DOING HER NOM NOM NOM) and he so wants to be such a man, a man that says what he wants and how have you that he might have some HATRED of femininity, that he might have dabbled in homosexuality during his early years.

But he shows such an ego, an ego represented by his upbringing, his rise to fame and so on- that every thing he says is Gospel. He is nothing more than a priest, trying to use very subtitle racial and class overtones (From the Ripping Friends and the like) to prove his point. This is the reasons, that his work will always feel incomplete and inconsequential in the whole metinoa of animation. Kishimoto, Oda, and Kubo suffer the same problems in different ways, but that whole other topic.
 

Novid

Banned
Barrage said:
So why did you continue to type?

Lets put it this way. I think there is some method to his "madness" wether that is relevent or not, It cant be pinned down for certian. John K and others have stated that artists can use what they have been through in life, and it seems his life seems to be...freaky to say the least. It may have an effect on his work, or not- but it has to be noted in someway because the topic deals with his oversized ego- I dont care quite frankly what he does or believes in- but in the end, aspects of his life and his poltitics (i.e. the same way with Howard with Conan, Tolken with LOTR, CS Lewis with Narnia, Pullham with His Dark Materials) do come out with his work...

Thats why i continued.
 

avatar299

Banned
terrene said:
It didn't change anything about how cartoons are made and I'm sort of confused about why you're focusing so heavily on the technical aspects of the animation when I'm talking about its content. Before Ren & Stimpy, TV cartoons were not gross, graphic, subversive, dark, psychotic, adult-themed, and especially not satirical of retro animation. The creation of content that mimicked the past in mock-tribute/appreciation was basically the creation of a post-modern era in animation. The audience that [adult swim] (and probably CN in general) now caters to regularly with the entirety of its programming was not believed to exist until Ren & Stimpy found them. The other new animation shows that Nickelodeon debuted that year were Rugrats and Doug. None of this should be news to you.

In no animation timeline would R&S get a note for technical acheivement, but animation doesn't simply belong to the fucking nerds who actually care about that. It was a cultural milestone for animation, part of the new market for animation that was being felt out to a lesser degree by The Simpsons and with less impact or success by Liquid Television, and it had a new voice and a surreal tone that required media literacy to appreciate, meaning it required an audience that wasn't your average 3-10-year-old Saturday morning crowd.
Which is nice and all, but John K talks shit about other animators when it comes to their technical skills, even when they are far better than his own.

Ren and Stimpy isn't all that special, It's the new adventures of Mighty Mouse, without Balski keeping it on course. The only difference between him and Balski is that he found relative success, while Balski never outgrew his cult following.

besides that I agree with some of what Novid said
 

bjork

Member
How come when John K talks shit, it's bad, but Itagaki talks shit and everyone on the gaming side is lining up to suck him off? double-standard-gaf
 

Novid

Banned
bjork said:
How come when John K talks shit, it's bad, but Itagaki talks shit and everyone on the gaming side is lining up to suck him off? double-standard-gaf

Itagaki has created some of the most enduring franchises in video games. He's also not totally against the western video game "ethos" which many of his contemparies in this field are in many ways.

John K USED to back up his words, but sadly he cannot and doesnt have any psycholigical argument anymore when it comes to the "organic" cartooning nor animation. So no, in some ways Itagaki can say what he wants and his fans can do the cirle jerkin. John K cant really do such anymore.
 

bjork

Member
Novid said:
Itagaki has created some of the most enduring franchises in video games. He's also not totally against the western video game "ethos" which many of his contemparies in this field are in many ways.

He picked up someone else's in Ninja Gaiden, and he borrowed Virtua Fighter to make DoA. I dunno if he robbed Sexy Beach for DoAXBV, but it wouldn't surprise me. But I don't count that as "creating."

I really would like to see someone just rock Itagaki at a press event, just to say they shut him up for once. It'd be even sweeter if the guy had on an Armor King outfit or something. :lol
 

Novid

Banned
bjork said:
He picked up someone else's in Ninja Gaiden, and he borrowed Virtua Fighter to make DoA. I dunno if he robbed Sexy Beach for DoAXBV, but it wouldn't surprise me. But I don't count that as "creating."

I really would like to see someone just rock Itagaki at a press event, just to say they shut him up for once. It'd be even sweeter if the guy had on an Armor King outfit or something. :lol

hmm dang i shouldent say created...maybe faslictated in these franchises?
 

Novid

Banned
terrene said:
It didn't change anything about how cartoons are made and I'm sort of confused about why you're focusing so heavily on the technical aspects of the animation when I'm talking about its content. Before Ren & Stimpy, TV cartoons were not gross, graphic, subversive, dark, psychotic, adult-themed, and especially not satirical of retro animation. The creation of content that mimicked the past in mock-tribute/appreciation was basically the creation of a post-modern era in animation. The audience that [adult swim] (and probably CN in general) now caters to regularly with the entirety of its programming was not believed to exist until Ren & Stimpy found them. The other new animation shows that Nickelodeon debuted that year were Rugrats and Doug. None of this should be news to you.

In no animation timeline would R&S get a note for technical acheivement, but animation doesn't simply belong to the fucking nerds who actually care about that. It was a cultural milestone for animation, part of the new market for animation that was being felt out to a lesser degree by The Simpsons and with less impact or success by Liquid Television, and it had a new voice and a surreal tone that required media literacy to appreciate, meaning it required an audience that wasn't your average 3-10-year-old Saturday morning crowd.

Batman TAS, Gargolyes, The Maxx...in some cases Aeon Flux...would like to have a word with you.
 

Flynn

Member
I'm not really sure Serapi and Vazquez are such great examples. Vasquez, especially, who's only strength was appearing just at the beginning of the teenybopper goth boom. Serapi is an only middling cartoonist with a strong voice and a great story. Critics were fairly unanimous in praise of her message, but bemoaning her lifeless style. Joe Sacco she is not.
 

Esperado

Member
Wait... the guy responsible for the Nickelodeon Ren & Stimpy is the same guy as the one with SpikeTV??? After looking through his show lists, I have to say that I loved every cartoon he's made and I pretty much grew up on his stuff, but his new Ren & Stimpy show just kind of sucks.

edit:: I also agree with him that pretty much everything today sucks. Bring back the hand drawn stuff, bring back the love.
 

J2 Cool

Member
avatar299 said:
Which is nice and all, but John K talks shit about other animators when it comes to their technical skills, even when they are far better than his own.

Ren and Stimpy isn't all that special, It's the new adventures of Mighty Mouse, without Balski keeping it on course. The only difference between him and Balski is that he found relative success, while Balski never outgrew his cult following.

besides that I agree with some of what Novid said

I see what you're saying, but no, it's better. It evolved since then. The shows from Ren and Stimpy they really took their time on, are something else for tv standards and cartooning. Mighty Mouse was more of an energetic breakout, but it didn't do it nearly as well as R&S did.
 
Esperado said:
edit:: I also agree with him that pretty much everything today sucks. Bring back the hand drawn stuff, bring back the love.
There are some good show, though they are better for their writing rather than their animation:
Fariy Odd Parents
Being Ian
Avatar
 

Flynn

Member
I'm sure my buddy Richard could tell some awesome John K. stories -- he was fired/laid off by the guy twice -- an constantly shat upon because he was "just" a writer. Though that writer did make significant contributions to Ren & Stimpy.

But here's one from a guy I knew way back when in Florida. He was another big animation nerd (and I think he was a cousin or nephew of Kevin Eastman).

This was the mid-90s and Kricfalusi was pitching his "Johnny the Hapless Boy" show. He tells the Eastman kid, "So this Johnny guy, he's not just retarded...he's fucking retarded." The guy was appalled by K's insensitivity, I suppose. I couldn't help but laugh.
 
Verboten said:
Whoa whoa, it's fashionable to hate on chuck jones? You can't be serious. I remember when you joined this forum a few years, Assassin, and I'd never thought we'd be at odds.

You go to far.
Wooah wooah woah, I wasn't slagging on Chuck Jones! I was saying that's he's one of the only animators that John K doesn't see as "below" him. I freaking love Chuck Jones and I actually cried a little the day he died. :(


Also, terrene, thanks for your thoughts. I can totally see where you're/he's coming from in that respect. He did make a very adult themed mainstream cartoon, one of the first, and that is something of a big deal. I keep going at the technical side of things because while John K made edgy cartoons, he finds it well within his right to just shit on everyone else in every aspect (animation, color use, story, etc). I still stand firm that he doesn't hold a candle to the greats, but at least now I can see where you're coming from.
 
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