GreatestHits
Member
I've bought my Tool tickets off scalpers more times than I can count. Did Tool try to stop it? yeah. Do I regret it? No. If I could get violent and if it would end scalping... would I? Yes.
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Is scalping and reselling inherently bad?
- Thread starter Raitosaito
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excelsiorlef
Member
Whatever makes you sleep better at night lol.
What about the people who also went out in 0 degree weather but couldn't get one because you bought them all up?
Bully for them I guess eh?
Well that's not always the case, like the Tragically Hip concert this past summer, all the tickets were bought seconds after they were posted online and they were reselling at exorbitant prices.
You can't always wait for the demand to die down when the scarcity was artificial in the first place.
LyleLanley
Banned
Scalpers are fucking leeches and scumbags. That being said, if you've got no other choice it's better than starving.
Raitosaito
Member
It's hard, and not a zero sum game.
A lot of items on the market people buy for themselves but are now parting base on prices they see online. When the NES classic first came out I saw a higher influx of new eBay users, and I guess from personal anecdote see people selling their personal console, and stated they were ok with buying later.
My answer to the last individual is what I would partially put to kind of get the ball rolling.
Now I want to kind of know your opinion on just retail arbitrage individuals. People who buy deals they find, and just sell online at MSRP and current market.
GreatestHits
Member
I understand it's as true as anything in capitalism. But this should be one of those signs that capitalism may not be inherently benevolent. I'd even go so far as to say capitalism is barbaric, without understanding or empathy
excelsiorlef
Member
And if the supply is rare, scarce and limited by design?
They're scum.
I don't care about the people willing to pay a higher price or whatever.
But when you can't buy something because opportunistic arseholes have gotten in there to make a profit that is shit.
Like concert tickets. They sell out immediately because of bot users etc. And then on reselling sites the tickets are listed at inflated prices.
I think Ticketmaster own a reselling website called StubHub so they even profit off it.
It's also why for something like the switch I had to wake up early, refresh the page and get in early just to secure one.
I'm sure at least 40% of preorderers are scalpers.
I don't care about the people willing to pay a higher price or whatever.
But when you can't buy something because opportunistic arseholes have gotten in there to make a profit that is shit.
Like concert tickets. They sell out immediately because of bot users etc. And then on reselling sites the tickets are listed at inflated prices.
I think Ticketmaster own a reselling website called StubHub so they even profit off it.
It's also why for something like the switch I had to wake up early, refresh the page and get in early just to secure one.
I'm sure at least 40% of preorderers are scalpers.
It's really sort of a wash isn't it? If it's a popular product it would have sold to someone. You are just changing who that person is; sure you are also contributing to amazons business but you are also raising the price of a product and inceasing the amount of things being shipped around.
Imagine if every single product was resold; meaning it was shipped to somewhere, someone bought it, then shipped it to a fulfillment center then it's shipped to a final consumer. We'd literally need 3 times as many trucks and planes to ship things around as we already do.
It's not an efficient or reallly healthy aspect of an economy.
Raitosaito
Member
I think we have a perfect example in the sneaker market. The companies are usually aware, and embraces it on some level. A lot of consumers accept it in that market.
Consignment stores that sell at higher prices even have their own sneakers collaboration with Nike.
I don't know other markets as well, but that's my own personal experience.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I respect the hustle. If others are too impatient to wait and are willing to pay extra that's their fault. I'm too lazy to take advantage of it myself though.
LyleLanley
Banned
It's slightly better because your not aggressively trying to fuck consumers but in the end what actual service have you provided? You're still a leech.
Raitosaito
Member
I think another poster put it really well in that ticket scalping is different in that it's a one time never again item, and are different than mass produce product like a game console.
They have full virtual manipulation of a product value, vs a game console that will be made in abundance down the line.
Aztechnology
Member
Won't deny that, but when people are basically none the wiser. I don't even think it's a big deal. Often I'm even able to pass along discounts. Could they do it themselves, if they put in the due diligence? Sure. Do they? Rarely.
TechnicPuppet
Nothing! I said nothing!
Scalping tickets is the lowest of the low. It should be banned with id matching the ticket required at every concert. Reselling allowed in a controlled manner for face price.
GreatestHits
Member
Yeah but that doesn't hold up much when the creator wants their product to reach X market. But X market is never reached because of scalpers. Let's say X market includes kids and their grandmas. Now the market is overtaken by people with money and scalpers. The creator gives to a market it doesn't even want. There is a huge flaw
Amen
StrategyFan
Member
you're basically creating inefficiency in the market. perhaps that is offset by your personal financial gain
overall, you are exerting energy for no net value. this increases the entropy of the system. since there is a finite amount of entropy in the universe, your actions are inherently bad for humanity's long-term prospects
overall, you are exerting energy for no net value. this increases the entropy of the system. since there is a finite amount of entropy in the universe, your actions are inherently bad for humanity's long-term prospects
don't take this post too seriously
Raitosaito
Member
In my earlier post I gave a real life example of people wanting to buy the item online, from likely a more remote location and are asking to pay the price I was listing for. Am I now not providing a service?
Inherently bad? No.
Depending on specifics I might say it's rude/unsavory behavior, but this "scum of the earth" stuff is beyond the pale. People are buying and reselling things and if you hate the idea of it then don't buy it from them. No one is being forced to.
No one is going to die if they don't go to a concert or get the latest amiibo. If scalpers were scalping food or medicine that people needed to live then I'd say they're evil and scum of the earth... But toys and shit? No. Get over it.
Depending on specifics I might say it's rude/unsavory behavior, but this "scum of the earth" stuff is beyond the pale. People are buying and reselling things and if you hate the idea of it then don't buy it from them. No one is being forced to.
No one is going to die if they don't go to a concert or get the latest amiibo. If scalpers were scalping food or medicine that people needed to live then I'd say they're evil and scum of the earth... But toys and shit? No. Get over it.
Raitosaito
Member
They do want it to reach X market through brand awareness, because the majority of their profits are designed around the more mass product item. They just want their name out there. If they wanted to stop it they can today through 100% raffles, and stop having collaborations with resell stores.
By that logic neither do investors/shareholders. After the initial offering they are buying shares either from an individual who purchased the shares during the initial offering or large institutions who held on to shares in hopes of selling them at a higher price down the road. Let's not forget the traders and investment banks who facilitate these transactions and get paid for their services.
Raitosaito
Member
Hmm never thought of this. Interesting take on the conversation for sure. I never equated consumer goods to the financial market.
Welcome to literally any business ever.
What, you think hardware vendors add a heft markup to their prices just for kicks? No, they are into making money by charging you whatever you are willing to pay. If a random ass guy on craigslist does the same thing it's somehow wrong? No.
If people are willing to pay a markup for the convenience of owning shit on day one because they missed the boat, then the value is there for that particular customer. Blame the manufacturer or your own dumb ass for fishing behind the net.
Better still, give up on that ridiculous 'got to have stuff on day one, yet I didn't put my order in' mentality.
Raitosaito
Member
What if larger corporations in essence already do this with some of their products? There's a lot of "marketing" companies essentially that buy non proprietary products from a distributor who got it from an earlier original source, and the item in the final form is just the product repackaged in a recognizable brand name.
Isn't that the same thing?
On a side note:
God I miss discussions on here. Twitter makes my brain hurt.
They are certainly operating on the morally questionable side of capitalism. I mean, they artificially increase the scarcity of products to make the situation of the market worse for the consumer.
They are the only ones who gain anything form the process while the consumer only looses.
It's a part of capitalism but certainly not a part consumers profit from, hence morally questionable.
They are the only ones who gain anything form the process while the consumer only looses.
It's a part of capitalism but certainly not a part consumers profit from, hence morally questionable.
Haha as a student with very little income scalping items basically lets me do... well anything? My job only lets me work two days a week because of school, which leaves me just enough money for food, the occasional movie, and my ocd products (I spend half my paycheck on cleaning supplies because of a debilitating mental illness).
But because I'm online so often doing schoolwork or in class, I can snag things like an NES and resell it, making like 40 bucks or so, and have a little breathing room a couple times a month.
People can think I'm scum, or I don't provide a service, or whatever they want really. I'd rather have enough money to not be desperate instead of random internetgoers approval. Frankly people are a little too salty for their own good with scalpers.
But because I'm online so often doing schoolwork or in class, I can snag things like an NES and resell it, making like 40 bucks or so, and have a little breathing room a couple times a month.
People can think I'm scum, or I don't provide a service, or whatever they want really. I'd rather have enough money to not be desperate instead of random internetgoers approval. Frankly people are a little too salty for their own good with scalpers.
I agree that day traders are mostly parasites and I think they syphon much more money from productive people than scalpers and as a whole are a much bigger problem, but that's a different discussion.
Let's stay with scalpers, how do you think they contribute to the economy?
The only way I can think of is that they generally make money out people who are richer than them and as such creates a downward wealth transfer that while small, as a whole it could be economically positive. But that's about it.
Your analogy does not work. The initial shareholder was not getting paid for the service of funding the IPO. They fund the IPO because they think they can sell it down the road. They are losing money when they invest. There is no funding of the IPO without the post-IPO share market.
Investors also can buy a majority of shares to take control of a company, and this happens all the time as well.
The shareholders also have certain rights, they can vote out a board that they think is doing a bad job. The value that the shareholders and the market place on the share price also has an influence on internal management, as management is rewarded and punished with reference to the share price.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I must be a controlled substance.
n64coder
Member
As some others have said, if you're able to find retail items for significantly less than online and are able to take advantage of it, then more power to you. Personally, I dislike scalpers who buy items of limited quantity and resell for a higher markup. Stuff like event tickets, NES classic, Majora Mask 3DS XL, etc.
I've been offloading my game collection on Ebay and been having fun doing so. Stuff that I bought at GameStop for $1 on clearance go for crazy amounts on Ebay. I also read the Ebay forums and it seems that there are a lot of people who try to do retail arbitrage but many are not successful at it because they sell junk or ugly clothes for high markup.
@OP, so you're a seller on Amazon? How does that work? You send them a big box of stuff that you want to sell and they send it out for you? What's their cut? What kind of return rate do you have? Do you also sell on Ebay?
BTW, did the NES classic scalping craze die down yet?
Raitosaito
Member
Sounds exactly like reselling?
The only difference from your description is in reselling and retail arbitrage there's no bureaucracy on reselling, and almost a true form of the free market.
Agreed. Not a personal fan of capitalism myself, but I am exploiting a flaw for financial gain to pay the bills
Because of the slow restocks prices on ebay have dropped from 200+ to about 130ish. Couple more months and it probably won't be scalped.
SkyMasterson
Member
I agree. When it's an item that will be restocked, why not just have patience and wait?
I couldn't believe it when people were paying upwards of $300 for the NES mini.
Either they are fucking stupid or they have the money, in which case, they don't care because they have the money, so it's a beneficial service to them.
Scalping tickets is pretty lame and I'm still surprised that so many ticket sites allow for big number of ticket purchases at once.
Raitosaito
Member
Yep, and I think Nintendo announced like a plan to mass produce even more.
SirJackDaniels
Member
Ive scalped about 3000 pokemon go plus last 3 months. The money really hurts
Aside from shareholder rights I am not seeing the difference. A scalper pays out money to buy a ticket or product today in hopes of selling it for more down the road. The average small investor spends money buying shares in hopes of selling it at a later time for a higher price.
I don't think they contribute to the economy at large per se, outside of the money they generate for places like eBay, Amazon etc. I was just pointing out that they are simply taking advantage of markets. Flipping is how I made beer money in college and law school. PlanetMoney on NPR dedicated an entire episode to folks who do this for a living.
LyleLanley
Banned
Just don't get burned OP.
She'll just return whatever she doesn't sell.
Raitosaito
Member
I found her eBay. She's still active but in just buying stufff lol.
I want to see her strike again.
No, that's not how it works. Reselling is the resale of a consumer good that is intended to go to an end user. The purpose of shares are that they can be resold and give you ownership rights to a company. Instead of thinking about it in terms of each stock price, you can think about it as selling a company (or percentages of a company). An investment product is meant to be resold continuously.
I don't know why you are talking about a "true form of the free market" if you are reselling for MSRP, or if you are using eBay. The stock market is more close to a true form of free market as the prices for the same stock are dictated by the market.
kingkaiser
Member
Is capitalism inherently bad?
Of course not!
If there is demand there will be supply, it's that simple.
Of course not!
If there is demand there will be supply, it's that simple.
Especially in the context of this discussion of buying retail items, the reseller can just return the product within 30 days if they can't sell it for a higher price. You can't do that with shares.
Investors trade in investments and their associated risks. The next buyer and the next buyer after that is buying the investment with an intention to invest as well (as well as be subject to the risk and reward of shareholder rights, such as dividends or a decrease in stock price). The IPO depends on the ability of investors to trade their investments--nobody would invest in SnapChat if they were not allowed to resell their shares.
Consumer products and entertainment tickets do not depend on the ability of scalpers or resellers to resell their products. The PS4 or a Kanye concert could still be a success if consumers were not allowed to resell the PS4 or the concert ticket. And we have proof because we know people can't resell their digitally downloaded games.
Just don't get burned OP.
How did she get burned? She returns them to the store and gets her money back.
She lost nothing but a but of time. She'll likely be there wih Switch too, why wouldn't she?
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