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[nelsonroyale]

It might.

If it does, well and good. If it doesn't, that is fine too. I prefered the books, but having the series is alright.

If they can follow Game of Thrones with a Wheel of Time series, my fantasy itch with be scratched.

 

[duckroll]

Out of curiosity is there any precedent to an author taking this long between books of a very popular series?

I mean, I dont remember the Harry Potter books taking this long and yeah yeah I know its not the same.... but you know what I mean.

How do we define "very popular" here? The Dark Tower was published from 1982 to 2004. Books 1-5 had breaks of 4-6 years between each one. Then King thought he was going to die or something, and suddenly shat out the last 3 books within 2 years.

In Japan we have the Berserk manga I guess. Which has been running since 1989 and will not end anytime soon, and the author keeps taking breaks.

 

[Veelk]

Out of curiosity is there any precedent to an author taking this long between books of a very popular series?

I mean, I dont remember the Harry Potter books taking this long and yeah yeah I know its not the same.... but you know what I mean.

I don't remember the title, but there was a series where Neil Druckmann talked about a series he liked where apparently it's been ten years since the last entry and he's still waiting. He didn't really care either, content to just wait until it's ready.

 

[arkon]

Jean M. Auel's series springs to mind. The last few books had lengthy gaps between publication and that has sold well from what I remember.

 

[dan2026]

How would you ever finish a story this big and sprawling in 2 books anyway?

Some characters are continents away from each other, with separate plots thar barely intersect.

I think you would need at least 5 more books. Unless you intent to throw away half the plots.

 

[KonradLaw]

um...like all the popular fantasy novels now? Where the hell is The Thorn of Emberlain? Doors of Stone? Oathbringer? Even the previous books in those series took years to release.

Also...this could be the year we see all of them.

This is why I never start a new long fantasy series unless I know the author can deliver in timely manner. For the rest I wait till series is over. Heck, I haven't even read Feast for Crows for the same reason. Ended with Storm of Swords.

 

[ElTorro]

How would you ever finish a story this big and sprawling in 2 books anyway?

Some characters are continents away from each other, with separate plots thar barely intersect.

I think you would need at least 5 more books. Unless you intent to throw away half the plots.

This is my impression as well. The story does not feel like it is anywhere near conclusion. I hope that GGRM does indeed just throw away half of the plots or just resolves them off-screen.

 

[adamsappel]

I've been waiting for David Gerrold to finish his War Against the Chtorr series for 24 years. Actually, not finish, but just write the 5th of the planned 7. Supposedly, it's done and being edited, but I've heard that before. This, and ASOIAF, will be done when they're done. There's plenty of other books to read.

 

[KonradLaw]

I've been waiting for David Gerrold to finish his War Against the Chtorr series for 24 years. Actually, not finish, but just write the 5th of the planned 7. Supposedly, it's done and being edited, but I've heard that before. This, and ASOIAF, will be done when they're done. There's plenty of other books to read.

Jeez...this is the novel I've been talking about couple pages back It was driving me insane I just couldn't remember the title or the author Thanks.

 

[Rentahamster]

I've been waiting for David Gerrold to finish his War Against the Chtorr series for 24 years.

That sounds like a cool premise for a story.

 

[Famassu]

How would you ever finish a story this big and sprawling in 2 books anyway?

Some characters are continents away from each other, with separate plots thar barely intersect.

I think you would need at least 5 more books. Unless you intent to throw away half the plots.

Well, wouldn't you have thought before A Storm of Swords that the whole Lannisters vs. Starks vs. Stannis thing was building up to something bigger that could take a while to resolve but then much of the Northern families were killed within, like, two chapters and that was kind of the end of that conflict. I imagine that if GRRM is still trying to finish this in two books, then there have to be some serious elimination & merger of lots of storylines.

Not to even mention the White Walkers seem like the real end game for all of Westeros so as long as the sixth book brings Dany to Westeros (even if she only just comes to the shores in her final TWOW chapter), that would mean that all the major players are on the same continent for the seventh book and that means whatever could happen as far as different characters'/factions' paths at least momentarily converging/connecting/clashing goes. So whatever conflict between different parties might still be unresolved at the moment and even by the sixth book's end, you'd imagine that the White Walkers (presumably) finally arriving in TWOW would create some kind of situation that maybe eliminates at least some need for all storylines to be wrapped up in a neat little bow separately, instead their conclusions maybe connecting to how the White Walker shit plays out and happening DURING the battle(s) against them.

 

[pa22word]

The Dark Tower series by King has been mentioned - he left 6 years between books 3 and 4, and when book 4 came out it was a almost entirely a flashback to the protagonists childhood told as a story around a campfire. When book 5 came out and continued the main story it was essentially 12 years later. Best example I can think of, but the Dark Tower is nowhere near as popular as ASOIAF, and book 4 is one of the best of the series.

I don't think the dark tower stuff is that fair, really,

It's not like king sat on his ass for 12 years while musing at his own inability to get anything done. King put out an absolutely monumental pile of work between those books, he just wrote dt when felt like it was time for a new dt book to come out.

If you were a fan of King you never ran out of stuff to read. Gmm fans get almost decade long blue balls for middling books (4-5), of course they're a little irate about that.

 

[Meffer]

The Wheel of Time series started in 1990 and finished about 3 years ago. Granted Robert Jordan passed away when there were three books left to finish so it was passed on to Brandon Anderson with all of Jordan's notes and some finished passages.

 

[Basileus777]

The Wheel of Time series started in 1990 and finished about 3 years ago. Granted Robert Jordan passed away when there were three books left to finish so it was passed on to Brandon Anderson with all of Jordan's notes and some finished passages.

It was a long ass series that lost its way, but Robert Jordan kept a fairly regular schedule of putting out books every year or two years (12 books in 15 years) until his illness. The guy was writing 350k+ word books yearly for a stretch.

 

[Veelk]

It was a long ass series that lost its way, but Robert Jordan kept a fairly regular schedule of putting out books every year or two years (12 books in 15 years) until his illness. The guy was writing 350k+ word books yearly for a stretch.

Yeah, and if ASoIaF had the quality of WoT, I would personally gather up all my ASoIaF books to my back yard and set them on fire.

 

[Monocle]

How would you ever finish a story this big and sprawling in 2 books anyway?

Some characters are continents away from each other, with separate plots thar barely intersect.

I think you would need at least 5 more books. Unless you intent to throw away half the plots.

Five is absurd. Three at most. Two would be plausible if a bunch of characters are picked off and Dany lands in Westeros in TWOW.

 

[Marauder Shields]

Tbh after reading other fantasy writers like Sanderson, I can see why GRRM takes so long with ASOIAF. His work is of a much higher quality and just so much more complex than most other fantasy series out there. Must be daunting to try and keep it all in line.

 

[sammex]

I don't think the dark tower stuff is that fair, really,

It's not like king sat on his ass for 12 years while musing at his own inability to get anything done. King put out an absolutely monumental pile of work between those books, he just wrote dt when felt like it was time for a new dt book to come out.

If you were a fan of King you never ran out of stuff to read. Gmm fans get almost decade long blue balls for middling books (4-5), of course they're a little irate about that.

It's definitely not the best comparison but it's close if you just look at the continuation of the series. Plus I don't think if GRRM was putting out more Wildcards or history books on ASOIAF I don't think that would placate fans yearning for TWoW.

 

[Dusk Soldier]

Tbh after reading other fantasy writers like Sanderson, I can see why GRRM takes so long with ASOIAF. His work is of a much higher quality and just so much more complex than most other fantasy series out there. Must be daunting to try and keep it all in line.

nah, he's just procrastinating. Don't kid yourself.

If his editor didn't step in and rip his ADwD manuscript from his hands, we'd still be waiting on that book.

 

[milanbaros]

Is it that he doesn't know the plot?

If he clearly had in his mind how the story was going to finish and did very high level story boards for each character then why would it be that hard?

 

[Rymuth]

Is it that he doesn't know the plot?

If he clearly had in his mind how the story was going to finish and did very high level story boards for each character then why would it be that hard?

I recall somewhere him saying that the story got away from him

Dany faffing about in Essos is one example. Couldn't untangle 'the Mereneese knot'

 

[Jayof9s]

Is it that he doesn't know the plot?

If he clearly had in his mind how the story was going to finish and did very high level story boards for each character then why would it be that hard?

He knows how it ends but from hearing his writing/creative process I doubt he's ever done high level story boards for the entire story-line let alone for the individual characters. Which is why I think he ends up in messes and needs to keep adding books.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

I recall somewhere him saying that the story got away from him

Dany faffinrg about in Essos is one example. Couldn't untangle 'the Mereneese knot'

And now there's 'the Northern knot'.

Dude has written himself into a hole and is less motivated than ever to try and climb out of it.

 

[Apt101]

GRRM seems more motivated to attend conferences and edit compilations than he is to actually work on his signature series. So who knows. Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[HStallion]

Dany is going to get side tracked and invade Southos instead and spend a book fucking up ruling that group of brown/black people.

 

[Aiii]

I recall somewhere him saying that the story got away from him

Dany faffing about in Essos is one example. Couldn't untangle 'the Mereneese knot'

What's even more funny is that the show was like (spoilers S6):

Spoiler

lol, stuck in Mereen? Here's a bunch of ships for her to get on and go to Westeros, done!

 

[Marz]

I honestly dont think so

 

[KonradLaw]

Tbh after reading other fantasy writers like Sanderson, I can see why GRRM takes so long with ASOIAF. His work is of a much higher quality and just so much more complex than most other fantasy series out there. Must be daunting to try and keep it all in line.

Higher quality? In what? Prose? Sure. But let's not pretend Martin is anywhere near the top of the genre in that.


The real reason why it's taking so long has very little to do with that. The biggest reason why Sanderson writes so much faster is because he's an outliner. GRRM is discovery writing. Being discovery writer isn't bad on it's own, but it's batshit insane when trying to do epic fantasy series with so many characters and plots. Add George's overall slow writing style and you have a recipee for diseaster.

 

[Rymuth]

What's even more funny is that the show was like (spoilers S6):

Spoiler

lol, stuck in Mereen? Here's a bunch of ships for her to get on and go to Westeros, done!

I know, right? Love how D&D dealt with this bullshit better than GRRM.

They tried to do Dorne justice in season 5, then said FUCK IT and

Spoiler

killed Doran unceremoniously. In the books, he's built as this master strategist but in the show, he was offed like an imbecile

 

[faer0n]

Tbh after reading other fantasy writers like Sanderson, I can see why GRRM takes so long with ASOIAF. His work is of a much higher quality and just so much more complex than most other fantasy series out there. Must be daunting to try and keep it all in line.

Are people really serious when saying things like this?

 

[HStallion]

I know, right? Love how D&D dealt with this bullshit better than GRRM.

They tried to do Dorne justice in season 5, then said FUCK IT and

Spoiler

killed Doran unceremoniously. In the books, he's built as this master strategist but in the show, he was offed like an imbecile

To be fair I thought he was a bit of an imbecile in the books much of the time despite him being built up as someone important.

 

[Screaming_Gremlin]

Higher quality? In what? Prose? Sure. But let's not pretend Martin is anywhere near the top of the genre in that.

Hey now, not just anyone can pop out master pieces like this on a whim.

Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water.

 

[dead souls]

Are people really serious when saying things like this?

I don't know how anybody who read ADWD can still blow smoke up GRRM's ass. What an awful book.

 

[Jarmel]

How do we define "very popular" here? The Dark Tower was published from 1982 to 2004. Books 1-5 had breaks of 4-6 years between each one. Then King thought he was going to die or something, and suddenly shat out the last 3 books within 2 years.

You mean he almost did die and freaked out.

 

[Calamari41]

Winds of Winter will come out eventually, but that will be it. Martin clearly doesn't give a shit anymore.

 

[Basileus777]

Yeah, and if ASoIaF had the quality of WoT, I would personally gather up all my ASoIaF books to my back yard and set them on fire.

Not really the point, but ok.

 

[Human Resources]

guys guys guys
the giants are out of the playoffs
work will resume shortly

 

[Varjis]

Winds of Winter will come out eventually, but that will be it. Martin clearly doesn't give a shit anymore.

I don't think he doesn't give a "shit" anymore as much as this man labored on these books for decades, and bam! HBO greenlights a show about them and suddenly his popularity shoots into the stratosphere. I can't begrudge someone who sees their work flourish in such a way and takes time to bask in that, it is probably intoxicating to some extent. Hell, it has probably added alot of stress and pressure because no longer is his work judged on the merits of previous books, but now anything that develops in his chapters will be weighed on how Weiss and Benioff scripted those stories. How crushing would it be for say, his version of the Battle of the Bastards to be seen as less than what HBO created?

Now if he Robert Jordan's us, at least we will have Weiss and Benioff's series version to complete the story... course I still want Syrio Forel to be alive.

 

[Calamari41]

I don't think he doesn't give a "shit" anymore as much as this man labored on these books for decades, and bam! HBO greenlights a show about them and suddenly his popularity shoots into the stratosphere. I can't begrudge someone who sees their work flourish in such a way and takes time to bask in that, it is probably intoxicating to some extent. Hell, it has probably added alot of stress and pressure because no longer is his work judged on the merits of previous books, but now anything that develops in his chapters will be weighed on how Weiss and Benioff scripted those stories. How crushing would it be for say, his version of the Battle of the Bastards to be seen as less than what HBO created?

Now if he Robert Jordan's us, at least we will have Weiss and Benioff's series version to complete the story... course I still want Syrio Forel to be alive.

Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge him at all for it. But it's tough to argue that it hasn't happened.

Straight up: 6 years is enough time to finish writing a book if you give a shit about finishing it.

 

[Basileus777]

I don't think he doesn't give a "shit" anymore as much as this man labored on these books for decades, and bam! HBO greenlights a show about them and suddenly his popularity shoots into the stratosphere. I can't begrudge someone who sees their work flourish in such a way and takes time to bask in that, it is probably intoxicating to some extent. Hell, it has probably added alot of stress and pressure because no longer is his work judged on the merits of previous books, but now anything that develops in his chapters will be weighed on how Weiss and Benioff scripted those stories. How crushing would it be for say, his version of the Battle of the Bastards to be seen as less than what HBO created?

Now if he Robert Jordan's us, at least we will have Weiss and Benioff's series version to complete the story... course I still want Syrio Forel to be alive.

Blaming the TV series is wrong, he spent 11 years writing two books even before it aired. The structural issues of the series and his own writing habits that make him slow predate all of that.

 

[Varjis]

Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge him at all for it. But it's tough to argue that it hasn't happened.

Straight up: 6 years is enough time to finish writing a book if you give a shit about finishing it.

Maybe we will luck out this year....

 

[Varjis]

Blaming the TV series is wrong, he spent 11 years writing two books even before it aired. The structural issues of the series and his own writing habits that make him slow predate all of that.

I am not blaming the TV series, I am pointing out that it and the increased exposure compounded the situation. I am well aware of how long it takes him, but that will not shorten given how things are now.

 

[Lothar]

If the TV show made the problem worse and before that it took 11 years for one complete kind of crappy book that was missing it's climax and conclusion, good lord we're in trouble now.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

Winds of Winter will come out eventually, but that will be it. Martin clearly doesn't give a shit anymore.

You have no way of knowing this. Most artists/writers care about their work.

IMO the problem is that Martin was not ready for all the POVs to return to one book, from a narrative and structure perspective. Narrative wise while he made a lot of tough progress in Feast/Dance getting multiple characters where they need to go, he wasn't able to include Dance's climax in the book (a major mistake imo). That puts him behind 150-300 pages right out the gate with Winds, having to include pages that should have been in the previous book. Now he has less time/pages to get to whatever Winds' climax is.

Then there's the structural problem. He's been a very undisciplined writer over the last two books. Too much world building and bloat that gives him less time to get characters where they need to go. That type of pacing is going to make it nigh impossible for him to finish the book where he wants to finish it. Consider the Arriane chapters that have released thus far. Starts the first chapter with the intention of traveling to meet someone...and by the end of the second chapter she still hasn't met him. Now multiply that type of pacing across 1500 pages and dozens of POVs.

I'd bet he's close to or well past 1500 MS pages with no end in sight.

 

[Mr Git]

I actually wouldn't mind the wait if it weren't for the series overtaking the books. I have the patience to wait for the book but not the willpower to abandon the show for spoilers.

 

[Calamari41]

You have no way of knowing this. Most artists/writers care about their work.

IMO the problem is that Martin was not ready for all the POVs to return to one book, from a narrative and structure perspective. Narrative wise while he made a lot of tough progress in Feast/Dance getting multiple characters where they need to go, he wasn't able to include Dance's climax in the book (a major mistake imo). That puts him behind 150-300 pages right out the gate with Winds, having to include pages that should have been in the previous book. Now he has less time/pages to get to whatever Winds' climax is.

Then there's the structural problem. He's been a very undisciplined writer over the last two books. Too much world building and bloat that gives him less time to get characters where they need to go. That type of pacing is going to make it nigh impossible for him to finish the book where he wants to finish it. Consider the Arriane chapters that have released thus far. Starts the first chapter with the intention of traveling to meet someone...and by the end of the second chapter she still hasn't met him. Now multiply that type of pacing across 1500 pages and dozens of POVs.

I'd bet he's close to or well past 1500 MS pages with no end in sight.

Nobody can "know" anything that we're speculating about in this thread, but we can certainly infer many things.

Honest question, do writers ever hire consultants? Because if I were in the clear bind that Martin is in, I would be doing just that. Surely a small group of professional writers and editors could help make sense of the current structural issues in the series if they all sat down with Martin for a reasonable amount of time and gameplanned.

 

[Basileus777]

Nobody can "know" anything that we're speculating about in this thread, but we can certainly infer many things.

Honest question, do writers ever hire consultants? Because if I were in the clear bind that Martin is in, I would be doing just that. Surely a small group of professional writers and editors could help make sense of the current structural issues in the series if they all sat down with Martin for a reasonable amount of time and gameplanned.

A lot of writers make use of writing groups, alpha readers, or people that they consult with issues. And of course, their editors.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

A lot of writers make use of writing groups, alpha readers, or people that they consult with issues.

And Martins consultant is Daniel abraham aka James sa Corey who writes the Expanse

 

[Diprosalic]

I think he will let the tv show finish the story for him and then in 5 years release a book that ties up the loose ends the show never touched on.

 

[Bebpo]

Winds of Winter will come out eventually, but that will be it.

This is kinda what I'm expecting, but at least I'd get one more book out of it so I'd be happy. Especially because TWoW could be some real good stuff if it's pairing down the plotlines, getting rid of characters and funneling everything to an endgame setup.