Always-honest
Banned
Just ONE fetch quest, and make that one awesome.
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Is the Zelda series REALLY formulaic? Is it in need of an overhaul?
- Thread starter mooooose
- Start date
In a world where we can have games like Super Metroid to Metroid Prime, Resident Evil can become Resident Evil 4, Burnout can become Burnout Paradise, all while keeping the FEEL of the old games and becoming these completely new things, then why can't Zelda?
I haven't played a 3D Zelda, especially in the GC/Wii generation, that felt as innovative as these games. Clearly, each franchise has an X factor that must be included, but you have to break down the core to what Zelda is?
Exploration
Combat
Puzzles
And how do we expand on these things? SS did on combats, though some would argue they haven't. WW did on exploration, but it was done overall, poorly. The puzzles have honestly suffered the most, because while they are able to come up with clever puzzles time and time again, how different are they? You can almost swap entire dungeons from game to game and you would notice a difference.
I think Zelda can improve dramatically. Few, probably none, of us are developers, and even less of us have the keen mind for game design like those at Nintendo do. I think their conservative approach in game design, ESPECIALLY with Zelda and Pokemon, is hurting them. The problem is, neither game has diminished in quality, and Zelda has managed to "fresh coat paint" enough to get away with it for a long time. I think both games are long overdue for improvement.
Fuck, thinking about it, isn't Okami the ground work for what a lot of people WANT out of a new Zelda game? A better combat system (though still not great), a better overworld, using your upgrades outside of battle, great presentation, an attempt at an epic story... I mean the game's biggest faults are it's length, handholding, and overall ease but the foundation is there. Had Nintendo attempted to make a Zelda game in the vein of Okami with some Skyward Sword in there, this thread would never have been made.
I agree. It's a waste having a large overworld like Twilight Princess's when it's just a glorified level select menu for a linear set of dungeons. It's only purpose was for atmosphere and immersion and it failed because it was so painfully bland and empty. A large PURPOSEFUL overworld, where you are just dropped in and left to figure things out and things get progressively more linear as you reach far corners... could be an interesting take on the overworld to dungeon dynamic. Nintendo also loves the idea of having you draw out your own maps, so let's bring that back from the NES days.
I haven't played a 3D Zelda, especially in the GC/Wii generation, that felt as innovative as these games. Clearly, each franchise has an X factor that must be included, but you have to break down the core to what Zelda is?
Exploration
Combat
Puzzles
And how do we expand on these things? SS did on combats, though some would argue they haven't. WW did on exploration, but it was done overall, poorly. The puzzles have honestly suffered the most, because while they are able to come up with clever puzzles time and time again, how different are they? You can almost swap entire dungeons from game to game and you would notice a difference.
I think Zelda can improve dramatically. Few, probably none, of us are developers, and even less of us have the keen mind for game design like those at Nintendo do. I think their conservative approach in game design, ESPECIALLY with Zelda and Pokemon, is hurting them. The problem is, neither game has diminished in quality, and Zelda has managed to "fresh coat paint" enough to get away with it for a long time. I think both games are long overdue for improvement.
My mind is exploding. I'd love to see Inaba's take on Zelda. Sweet baby jesus, we're living in America. Especially an Inaba who would be grounded by EAD and couldn't make a game as painfully slow as Okami.
Fuck, thinking about it, isn't Okami the ground work for what a lot of people WANT out of a new Zelda game? A better combat system (though still not great), a better overworld, using your upgrades outside of battle, great presentation, an attempt at an epic story... I mean the game's biggest faults are it's length, handholding, and overall ease but the foundation is there. Had Nintendo attempted to make a Zelda game in the vein of Okami with some Skyward Sword in there, this thread would never have been made.
I agree. It's a waste having a large overworld like Twilight Princess's when it's just a glorified level select menu for a linear set of dungeons. It's only purpose was for atmosphere and immersion and it failed because it was so painfully bland and empty. A large PURPOSEFUL overworld, where you are just dropped in and left to figure things out and things get progressively more linear as you reach far corners... could be an interesting take on the overworld to dungeon dynamic. Nintendo also loves the idea of having you draw out your own maps, so let's bring that back from the NES days.
Dion Blaster
Member
You also have to keep in mind that nothing will please everyone. I actually thought Okami's combat was pretty boring.
Yes. Bring Four Sword back and make it like ZELDAs new super Mario.
AA has the shortest opening of all 3D Zeldas but OoT, it was a step in good direction.
OoT's intro would be too short for a modern game IMO. I actually think Wind Waker's intro is a better size.
Doctor Decimate
Member
you're gonna be happy with Skyward Sword in that regard
the androgyne
Member
Zelda was never much about combat, the enemies were more just nuisances like in Metroid.
I couldn't stand how Skyward Sword made so much of the combat, slowing proceedings to a crawl. It takes a good couple hours to get through the intro and first dungeon, vs ALTTP where you could get about 1/3 of the way through the whole game in that time. They talk about SS being highly concentrated with ideas, but while it has a million and one things in it, the pace just destroys the feeling that you're getting anywhere.
The main problem is that the 2D Zelda's were never really 'realistic', they just had the feeling of realism. The 3D ones had to present a believable world and so they've moved more towards actual realism, and away from being a game.
I couldn't stand how Skyward Sword made so much of the combat, slowing proceedings to a crawl. It takes a good couple hours to get through the intro and first dungeon, vs ALTTP where you could get about 1/3 of the way through the whole game in that time. They talk about SS being highly concentrated with ideas, but while it has a million and one things in it, the pace just destroys the feeling that you're getting anywhere.
The main problem is that the 2D Zelda's were never really 'realistic', they just had the feeling of realism. The 3D ones had to present a believable world and so they've moved more towards actual realism, and away from being a game.
Doctor Decimate
Member
Wind Waker's intro does the usual hometown deal, then it makes me do a rope swinging game, then it takes me to a fake dungeon that's about stealth in a barrel like i'm a Solid Snake wannabe, then i have to buy a sail on some island, and then i get to the first dungeon.
FUCK Wind Waker's intro. right in the ass.
Smiles and Cries
Member
Zelda will always have complaints from fans, but Overhaul has been the major problem to me. It has changed a lot with each game. As soon as you love one they change it up on the next one so Overhaul has been all that Zelda is about.
Look at Zelda 1, 2, 3 and so on. The only thing similar is the Legend Story
Twilight Princess had a good mix and theme I think. I want another dark Zelda. This time with a huge epic open world. I want to walk into a forest that is not a lost woods maze puzzle. But this is Nintendo they will give us what they want Zelda to be. If you want something else go play The Witcher or a Scrolls game.
Look at Zelda 1, 2, 3 and so on. The only thing similar is the Legend Story
Twilight Princess had a good mix and theme I think. I want another dark Zelda. This time with a huge epic open world. I want to walk into a forest that is not a lost woods maze puzzle. But this is Nintendo they will give us what they want Zelda to be. If you want something else go play The Witcher or a Scrolls game.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
The problem with Okami is that its dungeons are quite terrible in comparison to Zelda's. Zelda was never about combat and combos, but I can see why a change in that direction could be interesting.
If they took away the hand holding and strongly raised difficulty, I bet Zelda would still feel fresh. What the series lacks, in my opinion, is the slightest sense of mistery and discovery, which used to be the entire point of Zelda.
They use so much pointless dialogue and so much hand holding (as someone said: they give you the answer to a puzzle before it starts) that they kill all the good content they had. Which is sad, as Skyward Sword has a quite beautiful story and setting and very interesting ideas.
But, in a weird way, FEZ gave me a stronger "Zelda feeling" than SS.
They use so much pointless dialogue and so much hand holding (as someone said: they give you the answer to a puzzle before it starts) that they kill all the good content they had. Which is sad, as Skyward Sword has a quite beautiful story and setting and very interesting ideas.
But, in a weird way, FEZ gave me a stronger "Zelda feeling" than SS.
It was more fun than all 3D Zelda's not named Skyward Sword, more boring than Skyward Sword's, but more consistent and with a better foundation.
Skyward Sword had very good combat in my opinion and should just be expanded on, but because motion controls have technically stalled this generation for Nintendo, we will not really see that. If it goes in the direction of Okami's with improvements, it could be very good as well, but different.
Skyward Sword is slow, methodical, challenging, and most importantly ENGAGING. It requires you to "solve" combat in a way few games do, much like a fighter more than an action game. Okami follows the action game approach, it is faster, button mashing, combo based. But it has speed on it's side and the opportunity (upon improvement) to be engaging similar to the typical action game, stringing together combat for combos, using your weapons, and all with the paint brush mechanic twist (again, GREAT idea, execution meh, but could be great on a new Wii Remote game).
Both have pros and cons. When people say they'd like Demon's Souls combat in Zelda, it's the Okami approach. I think both would be good, but Skyward Sword's is very good. I actually really like it. The only reason I'm not keen on it is because of Nintendo's stalling hardware wise.
I really wonder where Zelda for Wii U will go because of the disparity in control schemes this generation.
Okami had similar mechanics, while being fresh. The dungeons were bad mostly because the puzzles were brain dead easy, but that is just bad design, not the fault of the mechanics. It was a very good blueprint that was a very mediocre game (not really, it was a good game, but a mediocre Zelda).
I haven't even played Fez but I can totally see this just from all the footage I've seen.
Doctor Decimate
Member
i think when people say they want a Zelda to be like The Elder Scrolls or Dark Souls they should just go out and make a graphical mod for those games or something. because that's what they really want.
One thing that I think would really help with overworld design would be to put enemies in it that actually pose a threat. No more of these dumb, incredible easy to defeat minions that you can just trample over with your horse. Put in some legitimately threatening bad guys while you're on your way to your next location.
Aside from MM the 3d Zeldas are very formulaic, i don't mind too much because the series is pretty unique and the games don't come out every year.
I do wish that the combat was more interesting. THey could also mix up the structure of the games a bit. It worked well in MM, why not try it again?
I do wish that the combat was more interesting. THey could also mix up the structure of the games a bit. It worked well in MM, why not try it again?
Always-honest
Banned
I don´t know if it needs an overhaul. But with an IP that big, everyone finds a reason to complain, because everyone sees something different in the series. That said, I want a slow-paced games with no handholding, almost no combat and instead of that incredible hard riddles to solve. Pretty much the anti-thesis of every modern day junk food game.
Doctor Decimate
Member
Majora's Mask may be a fan favorite NOW, but i don't believe it sold particularly well by comparison and the response at the time was polarized.
I'm with your friend on this. The Legend of Zelda to me has never been formulaic, far from it actually. Especially for a series that's been going for over twenty five years and mananged to outlive almost all other 80s franchises and is still relevant today. Apart from Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time being similar, there's no other Zelda that hasn't introduced mechanics that changed the way these games played drastically. Ocean exploration, three day cycle, shrinking, stylus and motion controls, mask transformations, chart drawing, stone fusion, season changing, train building, environmental puzzles, avatar control are just a few examples and I could go on and on. I seriously can't think of a series that's dared to be so different from one episode to the other. Hell, some publishers' libraries lack the gameplay variety the Zelda series offers.
Doctor Decimate
Member
that's what people are advocating. when they say "i want Zelda to be like the SCROLLS, man!" or "i want Zelda to be a SOULS thing!", they're not asking for a Zelda game. they're asking for Zelda to be in their other fantasy game.
Problem is there IS some degree of bowing to story: TP follows it more, and SS has plenty of story chokepoints. If it just went "well whatever we'll have a few big events" and opened more I'd be much happier.
Of course, they may just not want to scare players away with too much of the world open at once, but rather than handle this more like older games they're starting to fall on plot trinkets that'll just open up another block of the map for you. Either way, it's the opposite direction of what I'd want.
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
I can't really put my finger on it but after trying the demo I felt like I'm playing a new game although I've Played 5 Fire Emblems before but Awakening felt strangely novel and yet familiar at the same time,
TLOZ needs a similar treatment.
I really feel that Nintendo has all the successful ingredients in-house to make an amazing Zelda game.
Presently, Skyward Sword shows that, in terms of the overreaching structure of the main game and the gameplay surrounding it, they have, as always, things pretty damn solid. Skyward Sword even addressed my personal complaints of difficulty, which surprised me.
Next, they should look to the past to help with other areas. Majora's Mask perfected the atmosphere and emotion of the game. Wind Waker also had wonderful atmosphere. Majora also perfected the sidequest variety, organisation, integration, breadth and structure.
They also really need to look to Link to the Past for inspiration on how to design the opening of their next Zelda game. It was engaging, taught the foundations of the game through actual gameplay rather than drawn-out tutorials and it spurred the player to action through its event construction, rather than cutscenes. Link to the Past could also complement Majora Mask's input regarding sidequests with the way it integrated Metroidvania-esque environmental/upgrade puzzles into its gameworld.
It would be all-too optimistic for this to come together in a single Zelda game, but, by golly, if it did, it would be a damn fine game.
Presently, Skyward Sword shows that, in terms of the overreaching structure of the main game and the gameplay surrounding it, they have, as always, things pretty damn solid. Skyward Sword even addressed my personal complaints of difficulty, which surprised me.
Next, they should look to the past to help with other areas. Majora's Mask perfected the atmosphere and emotion of the game. Wind Waker also had wonderful atmosphere. Majora also perfected the sidequest variety, organisation, integration, breadth and structure.
They also really need to look to Link to the Past for inspiration on how to design the opening of their next Zelda game. It was engaging, taught the foundations of the game through actual gameplay rather than drawn-out tutorials and it spurred the player to action through its event construction, rather than cutscenes. Link to the Past could also complement Majora Mask's input regarding sidequests with the way it integrated Metroidvania-esque environmental/upgrade puzzles into its gameworld.
It would be all-too optimistic for this to come together in a single Zelda game, but, by golly, if it did, it would be a damn fine game.
Thematically, it's a daring franchise, but few of these things have really changed gameplay more than marginally... The core game is essentially the same, and something in the core game of a 3D Zelda COULD be changed. Not that it SHOULD, because they are good games, but being daring would be cool.
Upon reflection, I really think Skyward Sword's combat is the one thing Zelda has done since MM that really changed the game. It took a fundamental attribute and really took it in a fresh direction. It make combat, essentially, into a puzzle. If improved upon it would be amazing.
I want MORE of this, and I want it done better.
And to those saying "if you want elder scrollz just mod da game lol this is zelda".
I understand that you like Zelda the way it is. I like my franchises the way they are. But Zelda, as a series, has picked and borrowed and evolved multiple times. For it to borrow things from any other series or genre would not be outside it's realm. Up until Wind Waker, before that it DID. Zelda, to Link's Adventure, to LttP and LA, to OOT, to MM they were all different. Now, we've stagnated. Those were more innovative to the core game than what we have gotten recently.
I think a "Metroidvania"-esque/LoZ type overworld would force the game to change, be redesigned, and still stay true to why people like 3D Zeldas. There are ways to go about this without "shocking the system".
I'd love to see Nintendo make a radical change like this just to see what the reception would be, because considering how polarizing opinions are now...
They don't spoil a puzzle before it starts. There are 2 cases where they give you the solution to something and both times are after you fail to figure it out once. They shouldn't even do it those two times, obviously, but the game does not hold your hand. It gives you really annoying reminders that boss doors are boss doors and that that annoying beeping sound means your health is low, but they don't make the game any easier and certainly don't kill all the good content.
Also, the difficulty in Skyward Sword was fine. Enemies actually do some damage, you have to time your shielding so that your shield doesn't take damage, and the motion controls put strategy into most enemy encounters.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
The intro to Skyward Sword is shorter than the intros to any 3D Zelda, if I recall correctly.
You grew up and got accustomed to the Zelda difficulty.
Skyward Sword did something right in terms of challenge by upping the damage you got from enemies (regular sized enemies always take away a whole heart, bosses up to two, smaller enemies like Bats tuck away half a heart and Lethal Joke Enemies like Bees take away a quarter heart).
I found Skyward Sword quite a lot harder than, say, Wind Waker due to that.
That doesn't mean that I died a lot more because of that but I found myself quite often in situations where I only have one heart or less left.
Of course, SS also added chairs and stools which regenerated your energy, but you could choose not to use them at least.
Always-honest
Banned
I haven't played the demo for Awakening, but I had a similar impression when I started Skyward Sword due to things like a stamina bar, item storage swapping, and upgradable items.
OoT's intro is like 20 minutes long so I kinda doubt it but it really depends on when you consider the intro over.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Needs a hard mode, IMO.
Randomizer
Member
I don't do it for any other games just Zelda. I know I shouldn't, in fact I wish I didn't as you said I set myself up for disappointment each time. But it's only because I know that the series has the potential for greatness that I can't help but think 'maybe this time they'll finally get that magic formula right'.
Ah, this came right before mine.
If nothing else Dark Souls is more seamless, I'd like it if Zelda took that approach as it can get me more engaged in the world by a significant amount and could make it feel surprisingly more fresh even if the games were essentially the same as before. I really do think all these little "traditions" that are just minor flourishes do make the games feel more tired, the NSMB line of games have a similar problem there.
I think it's possible they see aspects of what they liked from Zelda in those, especially Souls as that really does have combat that feels like a hardcore branch off of Zelda OoT's. Elder Scrolls is too open for what I'd want out of Zelda, but Souls? Work in a field and it's much closer, the structure is actually much like a Metroid game, and Metroid and Zelda actually are (or were) fairly similar games in regards to how you progressed: you gain abilities, and open new areas through them, though Souls is closer to Metroid thanks to boss chokepoints whereas Zelda just has those bosses guarding MacGuffins, with mini-bosses in some games.
If nothing else Dark Souls is more seamless, I'd like it if Zelda took that approach as it can get me more engaged in the world by a significant amount and could make it feel surprisingly more fresh even if the games were essentially the same as before. I really do think all these little "traditions" that are just minor flourishes do make the games feel more tired, the NSMB line of games have a similar problem there.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
The first time you take control of Link.
Also less handholding due to characters being savvy of you playing Hero Mode.
Well, except Fi of course.
Synth_floyd
Banned
Zelda is pretty bad now. They're just churning them out CoD style.
AltogetherAndrews
Member
I tried playing Skyward Sword, and I noted that it took me over an hour to even get going on the adventure. And then I ran down a spiraling path for about 10 minutes to activate something, and 20 minutes later I got to a place where I was chasing a weird little thing around. Haven't played it since. At least with Wind Waker, it was worth playing because it looked so amazing.
Anyone using that definition shouldn't complain about the intro length since that's not very long at all.
How so?
While I agree, no one would care if NSMB had a better art style and music. NSMB has it's place and does exactly what it's supposed to. It's just that while the art style is iconic and easy to identify, it's also incredibly fucking boring. There has to be a better way.
But NSMB is a good series, and the only person who would complain would be my friend who thinks it should be more like Donkey Kong Country Returns.
No, it absolutely is not. My memory is a bit hazy, but you probably spend around 45 minutes to an hour in Sky Loft before the story kicks in. And that's if you know what you're suppose to be doing and ignore things like exploring and talking to every NPC. In OoT you can be in the first dungeon within 20 minutes of starting the game.
Randomizer
Member
I think what it comes down to is that each person has their own personal views on what the essence of Zelda really is. Some people like a huge over world to explore, for others its the dungeons and puzzles, then there is side quests, collectables, combat and for some story.
I personal love all of them and view them as equally important and I think that is why OOT is still seen by many as the best. It had each of these things in the perfect ratio together with incredible pacing. I don't think it excels in any one category particularly and in fact I'd probably go as far to say it doesn't even feature the best of any of these categories. MM had the best side quests, WW had great overworld, TP had the best dungeons and puzzles, SS had the best combat and boss battles. Maybe its just me but I been thinking this way for a while now since beating Skyward Sword.
I personal love all of them and view them as equally important and I think that is why OOT is still seen by many as the best. It had each of these things in the perfect ratio together with incredible pacing. I don't think it excels in any one category particularly and in fact I'd probably go as far to say it doesn't even feature the best of any of these categories. MM had the best side quests, WW had great overworld, TP had the best dungeons and puzzles, SS had the best combat and boss battles. Maybe its just me but I been thinking this way for a while now since beating Skyward Sword.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
EDIT: Wait, that was wrong.
Skyward Sword's story actually begins within the first few seconds after creating a new file, with Link having his dream about The Imprisoned and all, you know...
Silent_Ocarina
Member
You'd be lucky to get two mainline Zelda games in a generation.
Well yeah, I thought that's what we were all talking about.
Only the DS games even came close to that, and I think there was still a 2 or 3 year gap.
The closest comparison is probably Dragon Quest, as both only come every several years, and aren't too radically different on the surface but usually have some twist or quirk. But I feel that DQ's stayed truer to what was appealing in the first place and when it hasn't it's VERY blatant like DQX going MMO (and even there it doesn't sound like a WoW clone or anything), whereas despite not drifting too much on the surface Zelda's lost part of what made it appealing over the years. Which is why you get everyone shooting all over the place in these "fix Zelda" threads, though the fact it keeps hovering around Skyrim and the Souls games does seem to be saying SOMETHING, and I personally think it has to do with how much stricter progression is versus older games.
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