Why does an "intro" end at the first dungeon? Who decided that? The dungeons aren't even the highlight of Wind Waker. I sure as hell enjoyed exploring Outset Island and Windfall Island even though that stealth section was unnecessarily long. And the first cutscenes were a lot more engaging than anything Navi and the Deku Tree had to say, let alone Twilight Princess.
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Is the Zelda series REALLY formulaic? Is it in need of an overhaul?
- Thread starter mooooose
- Start date
Why does an "intro" end at the first dungeon? Who decided that? The dungeons aren't even the highlight of Wind Waker. I sure as hell enjoyed exploring Outset Island and Windfall Island even though that stealth section was unnecessarily long. And the first cutscenes were a lot more engaging than anything Navi and the Deku Tree had to say, let alone Twilight Princess.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
We got four (4!) mainline games last generation. Except when by "mainline Zelda games" you mean "console Zelda games", then you're right of course.
Please read my post again, I edited it.
I think that's what he means, but it'd probably be best to change it to "per platform".
Where better to post for the first time on NeoGAF than in a thread about my beloved Zelda?
I think the series is definitely in need of a refresh. They tried with a new art style in Wind Waker, along with some improvements to combat, and while it was certainly different, it was basically more of the same, just refined. The context-sensitive A button was a brilliant concept, but the manner in which it was implemented was far too easy. Yeah, it was satisfying to knock all that armour of the more heavy enemies, but it became a little samey. Twilight Princess responded to the rather unfair criticism that Wind Waker had made Zelda into a cutesy cartoon - that's funny, I don't remember people complaining that Ocarina of Time looked like a cartoon, yet it did!
The problem with Twilight Princess was, I think, a lack of focus in bringing together the world, along with a very slow start. The first temple was awful. My friends and I like to load up a Zelda game every now and then and play through it - to this day nobody wants to start Twilight Princess. Which is a shame, because it's a beautiful game. But they went too far with Hyrule Field, the hub world. Not only did it have loading sections - for shame! - but it was largely empty, desolate and boring. Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask had landmarks along the way, with Lon Lon Fort, Clocktown, Death Mountain and basic features such as trees. Twilight Princess' Hyrule Field had a couple of tiny greenish-brown textures stretched over a much too large distance. It's largely a brilliant game, but the GameCube was looking old and tired by the time it arrived and the Wii offered no improvements but for a widescreen option.
Majora's Mask, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess all followed the template set by Ocarina of Time, and while this has served the series well, and can continue to do so to this day, it's definitely time to move on. Skyward Sword has made a good start, bringing back more rpg elements and showing what really could be done with motion controls. But the problem with this is that it's a singular game - with a return to a more traditional control setup, few of the lessons learned in bringing the mechanics to life will be carried over. This can be both a good and a bad thing - it could force Nintendo into thinking differently; on the other hand, they could fall back into the old tried and tested.
What Zelda needs to thrive is not for me to say. As long as the spirit of the games remain, I'll still be playing. I think we're all looking forward to seeing Zelda in HD, and with the recent rumours it appears they may be going for the more epic scale side of things - something I'm excited about as the Wii U will certainly be more accommodating to a detail-rich, polygon-heavy game than the legacy Gekko/Flipper technology. Whatever way it goes, Zelda will always have my fullest attention.
I think the series is definitely in need of a refresh. They tried with a new art style in Wind Waker, along with some improvements to combat, and while it was certainly different, it was basically more of the same, just refined. The context-sensitive A button was a brilliant concept, but the manner in which it was implemented was far too easy. Yeah, it was satisfying to knock all that armour of the more heavy enemies, but it became a little samey. Twilight Princess responded to the rather unfair criticism that Wind Waker had made Zelda into a cutesy cartoon - that's funny, I don't remember people complaining that Ocarina of Time looked like a cartoon, yet it did!
The problem with Twilight Princess was, I think, a lack of focus in bringing together the world, along with a very slow start. The first temple was awful. My friends and I like to load up a Zelda game every now and then and play through it - to this day nobody wants to start Twilight Princess. Which is a shame, because it's a beautiful game. But they went too far with Hyrule Field, the hub world. Not only did it have loading sections - for shame! - but it was largely empty, desolate and boring. Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask had landmarks along the way, with Lon Lon Fort, Clocktown, Death Mountain and basic features such as trees. Twilight Princess' Hyrule Field had a couple of tiny greenish-brown textures stretched over a much too large distance. It's largely a brilliant game, but the GameCube was looking old and tired by the time it arrived and the Wii offered no improvements but for a widescreen option.
Majora's Mask, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess all followed the template set by Ocarina of Time, and while this has served the series well, and can continue to do so to this day, it's definitely time to move on. Skyward Sword has made a good start, bringing back more rpg elements and showing what really could be done with motion controls. But the problem with this is that it's a singular game - with a return to a more traditional control setup, few of the lessons learned in bringing the mechanics to life will be carried over. This can be both a good and a bad thing - it could force Nintendo into thinking differently; on the other hand, they could fall back into the old tried and tested.
What Zelda needs to thrive is not for me to say. As long as the spirit of the games remain, I'll still be playing. I think we're all looking forward to seeing Zelda in HD, and with the recent rumours it appears they may be going for the more epic scale side of things - something I'm excited about as the Wii U will certainly be more accommodating to a detail-rich, polygon-heavy game than the legacy Gekko/Flipper technology. Whatever way it goes, Zelda will always have my fullest attention.
Synth_floyd
Banned
They're not churning them out 1 a year like CoD but it's the same thing over and over.
The story does kick in in Skyloft. They have to set up Skyloft, Zelda, Link, Groose, etc. And they do it pretty concisely.
I replayed the intro a few weeks ago:
-Link wakes up and goes outside.
-Link has to Z Target and climb a wall with a dash.
-Cat rescue can be skipped.
-Meet Zelda, get plot.
-Meet Groose, get plot.
-Find your missing bird. The first person I spoke to told me to check near the Knight academy. At the knight academy the guy standing in front of the dojo tells you your bird is behind the waterfall cave.
-Get the sword. Tutorials are optional.
-Go through waterfall cave dungeon and rescue bird.
-Flying tutorial that pretty much moves on whether you got it or not, they pretty much just throw you into the deep end.
-Zelda and Link have some more relationship building and plot. Zelda goes missing.
-Link follows Fi and gets the Goddess Sword. Plot.
-Next morning Link suits up and heads for the surface.
-Link has to Z Target and climb a wall with a dash.
-Cat rescue can be skipped.
-Meet Zelda, get plot.
-Meet Groose, get plot.
-Find your missing bird. The first person I spoke to told me to check near the Knight academy. At the knight academy the guy standing in front of the dojo tells you your bird is behind the waterfall cave.
-Get the sword. Tutorials are optional.
-Go through waterfall cave dungeon and rescue bird.
-Flying tutorial that pretty much moves on whether you got it or not, they pretty much just throw you into the deep end.
-Zelda and Link have some more relationship building and plot. Zelda goes missing.
-Link follows Fi and gets the Goddess Sword. Plot.
-Next morning Link suits up and heads for the surface.
It took you 10 minutes to run down the hole when you could have just jumped down it?
Wind Waker had you go through that tedious Forsaken Fortress stuff.
Which Zelda games did you play?
AltogetherAndrews
Member
I figured there would be something interesting along the way, but no. I had forgotten that stretches of travel in Zelda are always just that, stretches of travel.
And like I already said, Wind Waker looked amazing so boring parts were more easily digested. Skyward Sword is a bug ugly cluttered mess.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
It's really nice, actually.
And it's not like they didn't do that before. Twilight Princess did it pretty much the same as Skyward Sword, except 5 years earlier and, iirc, the tutorials were still forced on you, though they were short at least.
Well you can't really blame the game because you chose to do something a particular way.
KennyLinder
Member
I didn't really enjoy Skyward Sword. I put 14 hours into it and felt that although I'd seen a few dungeons and bosses, the game wasn't really going anywhere or showing me anything different. The start was INCREDIBLY slow, taking hours to get to the first dungeon. I didn't like the motion controls, I would of much preferred button inputs and lose the ability to slice at any angle (although looking at Metal Gear Rising, Nintendo could of done it with a tradional consoles if they wanted). The controls felt like they were there for the sake of it, instead because it makes the experience better (like a Vita game with tilt controls when analog control would be better).
After putting in so many hours into games like Dark Souls, the modern 3D Zelda series feels a little restrictive with forced tutorials, hand-holding, linear progression and no real gameplay challenge. No, I don't want Zelda to be hard like DS, but I expect a slight challenge. Is it a game for children or casual gamers? I don't think it is. If that's the case, make it more of a challenge. Metroid Prime was properly fucking hard with tough bosses.
Also, I wish they'd consider voice acting, Kid Icarus Uprising proves Nintendo can do it if they want to.
I've kinda accepted that the game series isn't for me anymore.
After putting in so many hours into games like Dark Souls, the modern 3D Zelda series feels a little restrictive with forced tutorials, hand-holding, linear progression and no real gameplay challenge. No, I don't want Zelda to be hard like DS, but I expect a slight challenge. Is it a game for children or casual gamers? I don't think it is. If that's the case, make it more of a challenge. Metroid Prime was properly fucking hard with tough bosses.
Also, I wish they'd consider voice acting, Kid Icarus Uprising proves Nintendo can do it if they want to.
I've kinda accepted that the game series isn't for me anymore.
Glass Rebel
Member
It's like beating a dead horse by now but I feel they need to "reboot" the series. Not the story, because it's not like there's any relevant continuity either way, but in gameplay.
Make something akin to New Legend of Zelda, keep it 2D, strip it down to its core mechanics and give it a pretty coat of paint. It should be like The Legend of Zelda NES with as little story and hand-holding as possible but designed in such a way that it encourages exploration. Make it the new entry-point for new generations and build the franchise from there.
Make something akin to New Legend of Zelda, keep it 2D, strip it down to its core mechanics and give it a pretty coat of paint. It should be like The Legend of Zelda NES with as little story and hand-holding as possible but designed in such a way that it encourages exploration. Make it the new entry-point for new generations and build the franchise from there.
Oh no. Twilight Princess is BY FAR the worst Zelda intro ever. They force you into this awful sword and slingshot tutorial, goat herding, goat sumo wrestling, catching fish... It's all very tedious stuff.
Doctor Decimate
Member
the real "meat" of the game usually starts at the first dungeon. you're not able to do any more at Windfall Island and Outset Island than you are in the little Kokiri village at the beginning of OoT. it doesn't necessarily HAVE to end at the first dungeon, but i think that's the way it worked out. the game does not really open up until after you've gone through Dragon Roost, so i consider it an intro
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
Skyward sword had hits and misses
-Excellent Story Charecters and Gameplay
-The stamina bar was good no more slow rolling Link,
-I wasn't that compelled to item upgrading that much it felt like it was invented to slow down the process of getting new better items, the only item that I really cared to upgrade was the awesome flying beetle, I wish upgrading items rewards you with added functionality like normal shields will be upgraded into a magic shield that reflects counter attacks like magic or arrows something like that will push me to care about upgrading instead if just getting Normal Shield+
-Another thing that disappointed me were the side quest because Nintendo promised a Majora's like Side Quests, What I loved about Majora's Mask is that they are like treated as mini stories instead of just bring me item B, thank you have some rupees quests, The kidnapped girl and the Spooky Paper quests is the only interesting side quest that I can remember
-The Overworld was empty, they could've filled it interesting stuff like the flying Pumpkin Tavern, they threw a treasure chest here and there but could they at least wrap it with an interesting context, how about one treasure is found in a flying ghost mansion that only appears at night, oh right you can't fly at night or how about a tribe Gorons that was sent by mistake to the sky when the land raised by the Goddess.
Doctor Decimate
Member
see, it still sound to me like you're asking for Dark Souls with a Zelda coat of paint.
Oh god no, this is a horrible idea. New Super Mario Bros. is Nintendo at its worst. Uninspired, bland, conservative design. I can't believe you're seriously suggesting Nintendo take that line of thought and apply it to another franchise. I feel disgusted even thinking about it.
Skyward Sword is definitely the hardest 3D Zelda game. Enemies actually damage you a fair amount, shielding isn't impervious, and the sword combat actually takes skill and strategy. There aren't forced tutorials and the only "handholding" is telling you stuff you already know. The game has great dungeons, especially #3 and beyond, with clever puzzles and new ideas. It has tough and interesting bosses, especially the 4th dungeon boss.
KennyLinder
Member
It shouldn't take 10+ hours to get exciting, new, and challenging.
Doctor Decimate
Member
i don't think think the item upgrading slowed down anything, i just found it useless. it was like a crutch that bad players could use to make the game easier if it was really giving them trouble, but to me the payoff just didn't seem worth it. oh, the slingshot is now the scattershot? cool, but i never had trouble missing the guy to begin with.
the overworld seems to me like Nintendo felt they NEEDED an overworld. because it's really rather poor, almost an afterthought. if they cut the flying you don't lose anything of value. maybe bolt the Pumpkin onto Skyloft and put the Isle of Songs in the Goddess Statue or make a teleporter somewhere
AltogetherAndrews
Member
Apparently I can. And since I started with a fight, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that there may be something more to the path than just a damned path. Even shaving off those minutes, it still would have been a insanely plodding first few hours of the game. And an ugly one at that. I don't know what got up their asses after Wind Waker.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
Heh, seems like I somehow erased that from my memory.
I'm kind of hoping they'll make something very different with the next console Zelda game due to the disappointing Skyward Sword sales numbers. We'll probably get a new 3DS version before that, though.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Well if you knew what was coming in Skyward Sword you should use your psychic powers for the good of mankind. You were expecting any of the awesome shit that goes down in the desert area that's never been done before? The number of dungeons doesn't mean shit if the content is always new.
Glass Rebel
Member
Be disgusted some more then because it's the only way Nintendo will make a non-handholdy Zelda.
Yeah, I definitely don't feel NSMB needs to play differently, not significantly anyway. I suppose going further with a seamless world map would be good though, and they could change the damn goal posts rather than just keeping it the same as SMB1 with NSMB1's approach. I guess it's just that NSMB's an easy cash cow, and they bank on that by keeping it exceedingly safe.
... I didn't really say what I wanted other than seameless-ness, not in that post anyway, and Wind Waker was getting the ball rolling on that one. Seems like part of the problem with these discussions is how easily arguments for taking cues may be swept aside.
To go into specifics of what I'd want from Dark Souls though? Mainly just that sense of everything being better interconnected and seamless, or at least so it's minimizing transitions to what's essential (overworld, towns, and dungeons?), and being in the same spot roughly on the linear/non-linear scale. The latter at least was where Zelda was with LttP and OoT, so part of the appeal with Dark Souls really was hitting a spot that Zelda abandoned, but Zelda's also made by the abilities and items you collect, the focus on a few significant upgrades versus being static or having a level system, and from LA forward its quirky cast of characters to interact with and get to know. I suppose that last one applies to Dark Souls, but Zelda's kind of going for more of a Twin Peaks-like approach versus strangers in a dark and dangerous land that you can only hope are friendly... and stay that way.
EDIT: Actually, I think there's a way to describe how I feel about older Zelda versus newer (especially Skyward Sword) Zelda: the former felt like I got to go and explore Hyrule on my own, the latter felt like I was being taken through Hyrule by a tour guide. A potentially very boring one as the case was in Skyward Sword.
Christopher
Member
Twilight princess killed the series luster for me so barren cold and lifeless.
The series needs something new to bring it to that level of prestige again...I just got burnt out after TP
The series needs something new to bring it to that level of prestige again...I just got burnt out after TP
an overworld worth exploring is the major change they need to make (for both 3D and 2D Zelda). SS didn't have that due to the corridor nature of the level design and it took away from my enjoyment of this game. TP and WW both were a little better in that regard, but much of their overworld is barren and empty, there's just not nearly enough content to discover
I still enjoy the Zelda series, but haven't loved one of its games since Majora - Twilight Princess came closest, but for its dreary final third. The problem is that no matter how many times Nintendo switches up the art style or finds new ways of incorporating motion controls, the player is still essentially doing the same thing they've done countless times before. The thrill of solving a new puzzle or collecting a new item is rendered inert when both have two decades' worth of familiarity behind them. Personally, I'd like to see the series go more open world - the opposite direction to the intensely linear Skyward - with optional dungeons (and key ones you can play in any order) and Link starting out with the series' staple items, like bombs and the bow. The extensive intro/tutorial sections could also do with being severely cut down, or at least staged with some flair: Majora's Mask did this brilliantly (first the chase, then putting players on the back foot by transforming Link and throwing him into a twisted, alien world) and Beyond Good & Evil's opening boss battle could also be a point of reference.
-Less tutorials, more finding things out for yourself, that's supposed to be the fun part.
-More exploration, I want to feel like I can explore the entire land total freedom along with the dangers that come with it, find rare items and more fun side quests etc rather than just rupees.
-More towns, beautiful hidden areas. I LOVE visiting towns and peoples homes in Zelda games and all the fun stuff that comes with it. e.g sidequests and hidden things, talking with interesting people.
-More people, races to meet.
-Improved combat
-New fun enemies
-More RPG elements, give me that addictive feeling
-The feeling of going on an adventure should be a priority
-Music as good as Ocarina Of Time
-Light AND dark places, meaning stick with the lighthearted pretty places but don't forget about the areas with that dark feeling that made OOT and MM so great.
-Amazing Boss battles
-New well designed weapons and items
-Harder yet more fun dungeons (that's going to be hard to do)
-A story that makes me wish I could stay there forever
-A more open world feeling
-FISHING!!
-New fun mini games
-Keep that Zelda charm, lots and lots of charm
-Chat up girls/love option haha
-More dialog options
-Bring back a HORSE to explore the land!!
I could go on forever so I will stop. SURPRISE me Nintendo, surprises and unexpected things are what makes Zelda games fun to explore and worth your time, make the game full of surprises.
AM I ASKING FOR TOO MUCH!?
-More exploration, I want to feel like I can explore the entire land total freedom along with the dangers that come with it, find rare items and more fun side quests etc rather than just rupees.
-More towns, beautiful hidden areas. I LOVE visiting towns and peoples homes in Zelda games and all the fun stuff that comes with it. e.g sidequests and hidden things, talking with interesting people.
-More people, races to meet.
-Improved combat
-New fun enemies
-More RPG elements, give me that addictive feeling
-The feeling of going on an adventure should be a priority
-Music as good as Ocarina Of Time
-Light AND dark places, meaning stick with the lighthearted pretty places but don't forget about the areas with that dark feeling that made OOT and MM so great.
-Amazing Boss battles
-New well designed weapons and items
-Harder yet more fun dungeons (that's going to be hard to do)
-A story that makes me wish I could stay there forever
-A more open world feeling
-FISHING!!
-New fun mini games
-Keep that Zelda charm, lots and lots of charm
-Chat up girls/love option haha
-More dialog options
-Bring back a HORSE to explore the land!!
I could go on forever so I will stop. SURPRISE me Nintendo, surprises and unexpected things are what makes Zelda games fun to explore and worth your time, make the game full of surprises.
AM I ASKING FOR TOO MUCH!?
Actually, that's related to one aspect I'd have liked it to have shared with Dark Souls/Metroid, and that was for all three of the areas to ultimately be connected: you STARTED at different spots in each, but as you gain abilities and explore more you'd find links between the areas, maybe even whole new smaller areas that bind them together. Instead they're just wholly segregated areas, which is doubly disappointing as I'd have THOUGHT the former would be most appropriately Zelda-esque.
I agree, the level design in DS is at times fantastic and I absolutely loved how everything was interconnected with each other. When you first find the elevator from the Undead Parish to the Firelink Shrine? - I knew I was in for a treat. I didn't care too much for the gameplay actually, but that and the great lore/characters was what drew me in
LOL Link flying an ancient space ship! Actually space exploration, that's actually a pretty interesting idea if they are looking to refresh the game, as long as they keep that Zelda feeling. Especially if it looks similar to that picture, that would make a great cover.
thomasmahler
Member
If I'd head the design of Zelda, I'd try this:
Within one year, using the engine that's already there, focus on building a Zelda that's:
1) Not too long. Nobody cares about a 50h Zelda. ALTTP can be finished in a few hours and it had the perfect Zelda design.
2) Shaking up the old shit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzwBuy0FMlc - Bring in some of the SOTC sentiments for enemies and bosses.
3) New Art Direction: Shock Zelda Fans with something very new. Should look like the concept art in the NES Zelda Manuals.
4) Amazing environments: Zelda is a journey and I'd want to see vistas in it that I'd want to tell people about.
5) No Fetch Quests: Stick to your guns, don't introduce a lot of unnecessary fetch quests just so the player has to spend WAAAY more time going through the game.
Within one year, using the engine that's already there, focus on building a Zelda that's:
1) Not too long. Nobody cares about a 50h Zelda. ALTTP can be finished in a few hours and it had the perfect Zelda design.
2) Shaking up the old shit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzwBuy0FMlc - Bring in some of the SOTC sentiments for enemies and bosses.
3) New Art Direction: Shock Zelda Fans with something very new. Should look like the concept art in the NES Zelda Manuals.
4) Amazing environments: Zelda is a journey and I'd want to see vistas in it that I'd want to tell people about.
5) No Fetch Quests: Stick to your guns, don't introduce a lot of unnecessary fetch quests just so the player has to spend WAAAY more time going through the game.
Outtrigger888
Member
Id like to see a more serious zelda that feels more grown up with a darker vibe to it with detailed graphics that resemble more of realistic graphics but still with that cartoon zelda flare. Hope that all makes sense.
Like the vibe i got from oot but even more
Actually, just went and watched the e3 trailer of zelda for Wii u and I think they're on track for what I'm hoping.
Like the vibe i got from oot but even more
Actually, just went and watched the e3 trailer of zelda for Wii u and I think they're on track for what I'm hoping.
Majora's Mask still makes you do tedious things and wait out the first 72 hours. You have to find the Bombers, get the moon's tear, and get the title deed. Then you just have to wait for at least the last 6 hours. How is that better than what you have to do in Skyward Sword?
Yes, Zelda does have staples, but they always come up with new puzzle ideas and items that are completely new and interesting. Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword have some of the best dungeons in the franchise.
The nonlinearity you are asking for is a very bad idea. If the main dungeons can be tackled in any order, that means that the puzzles have to be simplified to not use dungeon items from other dungeons. Zelda 1 is as non-linear as it is because it's extremely basic, and even then it isn't totally nonlinear because some dungeons are gear gated.
I agree with some of your points, but not this one. As long as there are plenty of things to do and explore, and they make the world full of life, that's going to make me feel like staying there, so then the longer the better. I want my Zelda games to be worth the wait.
They are extremely formulaic. Skyward sword promised big but didn't really deliver, but that game was terrible because of it's enormous filler content. Still I love zelda and would take another with the same formula sans the bullshit filler in twilight princess and skyward sword. Also that companion in skyward sword, whatever her name was, can eat a dick.
Nobody? A Link to the Past is a great game, but I much prefer post OoT's more complex puzzle designs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nlPdw5H-Q0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfYS47u1Iyc#t=40s
Yeah in that aspect it should be more like Nier, which basically tells you a new tutorial has been added, so if you wish to check it out you can check it out whenever you want.
d00d3n
Member
I agree with this. Optional content is an important part of the series, but should be substantial. Cut development time from the main path if necessary (would have been great in the overlong Skyward Sword). The sidequests in skyloft were just annoying.
make the dungeons revisitable. Beat the boss of the temple, but there was that one corridor that requires you to use the hookshot (which you don't have yet)? Come back later to continue with the second part of the dungeon. Admittedly, you'd still have to do every dungeon in a certain order (though they could make it so you can pick between two or more dungeons at any time)
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