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Is this the best anti-rape campaign ever?
- Thread starter MemoryHumanity
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freenudemacusers
Member
jeezy... I've actually been in this situation. got real drunk at a party, starting getting heavy with a girl, went to her room, we're both almost naked... she says "no, I don't want to". Was I a little pissed? Kinda. Did I keep pushing? No. Could I have coerced her in the state we were both in? Probably. But... I did not.
edit: you'll probably be gone soon so w/e
She held my hand. She wants The D.
Hahah, holy shit I hope that guy that got that role got paid tons for that to play a would-be rapist.
Ummmm if she asks you to stop you just keep going? Unless you were expecting her to go all Chun-li while he's trying to go for her pants as to what constitutes "no".
MemoryHumanity
Member
So, you see a girl wearing a short skirt, you immediately think she's available and willing to have sex with you? Is that what you're saying? Because that's what it sounds like.
Psychoward
Banned
Wait, it was bad enough if you think her stopping wasn't enough, which yeah probably could have been a little more forceful but still. But then you go on to basically advocate rape and say you would do the exact same? What the fuck?
............I don't think that's what he's saying.
terribletwo
Member
Girls aren't DTF just because of what they are wearing
So what you're saying is, she's asking for it.
what else does 'she's down' mean?
MemoryHumanity
Member
I think it is.
im going to have an asthma attack in about three seconds
"Asking for it" is the most commonly used phrase for blaming a victim for their rape.
And how does the bar scene not help the message? If someone wants to stop, at any time, then you should stop. Being in a bar doesn't just change the Rape Rules. I can't believe I'm having to say this at all.
JordanN
Banned
No one should take responsibility for being a woman or a man. Sexual assault is illegal and is always the fault of the rapist.
Vermillion
Banned
Down to fuck.
I'm not quite sure how you'd tell that just from looking at someone, though.
themustardman
Member
Heres the point I THINK he's trying to make.
If you don't lock your car and don't have anti theft and someone steals your car, it's still the thiefs fault. But you don't want your car to get stolen so you do these things. It's a slippery slope to veils but it's not a black and white world we live in.
Let me put this into perspective for you: Most women are raped by someone (usually a guy) they know. It tends to be someone they know very well. Your idea of what is "dangerous" is not the reality when it comes to rape, and if women were expected to keep away from such "dangerous" situations, the "safest" thing to do would be to not interact with any guys. Ever. Am I personally responsible for being raped because I decided to ignore how most rapes actually happen and decided to interact with guys?
The analogy doesn't hold and is dumb.
Vermillion
Banned
I understand what he's saying, but there's hardly a point in blaming the person. It's still the thief's fault.
I think he's trying to say that, generally, when a woman dresses in a very revealing way there is a good chance she is trying to attract members of the opposite sex. If she is indeed attempting to attract members of the opposite sex in a place like a bar, there is a good chance she is interested in intimate relations.
This does not mean every woman who dresses in a revealing way wants to attract the opposite sex, nor does it mean that she is obliged to have sex with anyone against her will. She doesn't owe anyone anything. I'm just talking generally.
I'm sorry if I said anything offensive, I didn't mean to and I want to learn more if my thought process is off.
User 100115
Banned
The problem with that argument with regard to rape: Women get raped wearing all sorts of clothing. Women get raped at home, at work, at parties, at friends houses, at bars. Basically, if you start with 'well, women should do everything they can to prevent being raped!' you are telling them to lock themselves in their houses and never see anyone.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
i dont think that phrase means what they think it means
And even then, one of the first guy's scenarios is that somebody randomly breaks into the woman's home and rapes her. It's an impossible task.
User 100115
Banned
Yep. The only thing we can do to prevent rape is to not rape. Period.
faceless007
Member
We put in anti-theft devices because they're low-cost, don't affect the car's operations, and pragmatically they're better than dealing with the aftermath of having your car stolen. But they don't change the moral calculus at all; a person who steals a car with an anti-theft system has committed exactly the same offense as stealing a car without one.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
most rapes are by people they know, on top of it. at least, in America.
JordanN
Banned
I would also suggest anti-theft devices are passive, because you can't always be around for a car.
Whereas someone is always in control of their body.
Murder. She Wrote
Member
What's everyone's thoughts on the getting over the top drunk and rape? It seems that the two often go together.
My thoughts... just because a girl is drunk doesn't make rape ok, but I have a harder time feeling sorry for the girl if she made stupid decisions because she was drunk and that got her in to a bad situation. I felt the same way when my best friend got piss-ass drunk at a bar and jumped in to a strange van going to a party. He got back to us a couple hours later and had got mugged, but it was hard to feel sorry for him because he made an dumb decision. There are bad people out there and girls especially need to be more careful when drinking.
My thoughts... just because a girl is drunk doesn't make rape ok, but I have a harder time feeling sorry for the girl if she made stupid decisions because she was drunk and that got her in to a bad situation. I felt the same way when my best friend got piss-ass drunk at a bar and jumped in to a strange van going to a party. He got back to us a couple hours later and had got mugged, but it was hard to feel sorry for him because he made an dumb decision. There are bad people out there and girls especially need to be more careful when drinking.
Rape is like abortion. People get firmly defensive about their position as soon as they hear the topic. I'd rather not get banned for a controversial topic that I've just been thinking about.
I'd like to encourage people to think about the issue, whichever way they choose.
Of course it's the rapist's fault. Who ever said it wasn't?
The way I was raised, even things that weren't my fault ended up being my fault. Perfection was key. Obviously perfection is impossible and obviously not everything is your fault. However, I'm also in a relationship with someone who (as one example) thinks it's hilarious to pretend to hit me and when she does she's like "it's not my fault! It was an accident!" The way I was raised, personal responsibility is key above all else. If I punch you, it's my fault. If I punched the person who killed my mom, well I guess it's still 100% my fault, but does that shift any responsibility to the murderer?
I'm not trying to blame the victim here, I'm just encouraging people to actually consider why they hold the positions that they do. If I shoot at someone and he shoots and kills me, is that the same as if he just shot me for no reason? That's obviously not the exact same scenario as the rape scenarios I outlined, but the whole point is this: I don't like seeing people being close minded and having their minds made up BEFORE they're sure that their beliefs are consistent. You can be on whichever side of the line you want to be on, that's fine. However, if the SOLE reason that you hold your position is because it's rape, then that's where I think things need to change. Replace parts of the scenario with less controversial parts. Give both parties the benefit of a doubt. Some would argue that there's nothing you can add to the scenario to give any responsibility to the rape victim. That's fine. Others would argue the exact same, but as soon as scenario #2 reads like this: "#2: A child molester goes to prison and gets raped" then they start celebrating "justice." I personally hate logical inconsistencies like that, but most people fail to think about the issues and would rather just parrot whatever's popular.
I'm not sure how everyone's missed this point. The rapist is 100% accountable for his or her actions. I have never denied that and I will never deny that. They should be held fully accountable under the law and punished appropriately. The point isn't to blame the victim, it's to encourage personal responsibility. This isn't specific to girls either. I'm a feminist. I have no problems with girls wearing skimpy clothes or flirting with every guy at the bar. I don't want people to always make decisions because they're afraid of being raped either. I just think that there are some decisions that should be common sense that could be made incorrectly if we discourage personal responsibility.
Addendum: Rape is a huge problem. The points I bring up are more towards a hypothetical issue than a real one, because of course there are enough issues with getting victims to come forward without making them feel guilty about their attacks. Thus, in the "real world" there should never be any hint that the victim bears any responsibility for the attack. However, I think we should each explore, in hypothetical scenarios, how we each feel about the issue.
MemoryHumanity
Member
See, this is the thing. That's not being a 'good person'. That's basically the minimum standard of decency I would expect from any human being. To not have sex with someone who doesn't want to. It's ridiculous how low our standards must be when 'not being a rapist' is seen as being 'a good person'.
terribletwo
Member
Girls are allowed to get stupid black out drunk. Men are not allowed to put their penises in them
Its the beginning of a larger dialogue that needs to happen with boys & men. They need to be taught what consent is, how to achieve, and when consent cannot be given (when a girl is drunk).
Vermillion
Banned
Girls shouldn't have to be any more careful than guys when drinking, though.
Sometimes I wonder how much these anti-rape campaigns actually appeal to those who may rape someone else or at least would pop up in someone's head when they may be placed in a situation where such an act would cross their mind. I'd imagine there is research on this stuff but I'd be curious to see what they target. The ad in OP doesn't seem to be, I don't know, daring? enough to strike me as something that would reach someone at their core and prevent such a thing or make someone think twice about it. But then again, I'm not exactly sure of the exact demographic (which appears to be more casual rape than say a serial rapist).
*backs far out and away of this thread knowing where it's going*
*backs far out and away of this thread knowing where it's going*
Lord Ghirahim
Member
Agreed. Both girls and guys should be careful. That was the point about my friend that got mugged. Still doesn't excuse the mugger or rapist, but people shouldn't make it easy for them.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
that wasn't effective at all. If anything it makes light of the issue and creates a false argument as to what the real issue is.
If you want a serious answer, we're going to need to do some calculations about probability. But in the eyes of the universe, both instances are probably more equal than not.
A woman naked in a room full of rapists is not being raped. And there's no really reasonable expectation that she would be raped. She might have a higher probability than a woman, alone, locked in a house, but those are still only variables. It doesn't easily come down to x+y = rape.
woman gets skin cancer from a tanning bed, does it still figure? compared to the person walking, with arms bare, in the sunlight? Do the words 'personal responsibility' ever get mentioned? Tanning beds don't cause cancer.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's not about stopping rape as much as it's about informing men about their rape culture and their shitty opinions.
This is a good point.
Vermillion
Banned
You certainly won't get banned for speaking your mind, so long as you're not too much of an ass/follow the TOS, trust me.
I'd think that we need a community for hypotheticals like this as well... always interesting. Always heated, too, which I personally don't like...
At any rate, others have covered this - absolute personal responsibility would mean that women should no longer speak to or otherwise interact with men, since most of the people who are raped are raped by people that they know. It wouldn't simply stop at "handle your liquor, don't go out a 2am." That doesn't affect most rape... maybe the first point, but ultimately, to avoid rape, the halves of the human population would have to stop talking to each other. The alternative is that we make the attempt to stop the people who rape from raping.
MemoryHumanity
Member
Bingo.
Hell, people in this very thread don't even know the definition of the word rape.
JordanN
Banned
I wouldn't pin this on just men. There are women who believe in rape culture too.
MemoryHumanity
Member
That's also very true.
Dark Octave
Banned
Reminds me of those "you wouldn't download a car" ads.
"Remember kids, don't rape!"
But maybe just awareness alone is better than nothing.
...Really? No that's not what I'm saying at all.
I agree.
More or less.
That's not the point. It doesn't matter if the specific example matches. The point is this- is there any grey area when it comes to personal responsibility in this type of situation or is it all 100% black and white? Is it always 0%? If someone runs in front of a train and gets killed, then are they 0% responsible? Now, I already know the counter-argument "but the train is incapable of stopping" or something like that. Take the original scenario #2 and have the woman walk into a prison full of rapists that each have absolutely zero impulse control (i.e. they are incapable of controlling their actions) due to brain damage (and yes these people ARE out there). I don't see how that's different that running in front of a train.
Strawman. This was never about 100% prevention of rape. That's not even possible. This is about avoiding objectively bad situations, not fearing for your life because the power goes out.
Agreed.
That's another scenario I was thinking about. Most people in this thread will say that it's 0% the fault of the drunk person. Not saying they're right or wrong but I hope that they sincerely thought about their point.
hmmmmm so you feel less sorry for a girl who was raped because she was drunk. Do you feel more forgiving to the rapist? What if the rapist was drunk?
And who gives a shit on how you feel! A crime was committed, and a life ruined. No matter what is the scenario, rape is rape.
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