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[The Faceless Master]

i can't take Itagaki's commentary on skin color seriously because DOA4 was not a tournament caliber fighting game and Ninja Gaiden was a fluke. one hit wonder, dude needs to finish his Wii U exclusive garbage before the NX drops!

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Regardless if Itagaki got fooled, It's nice to see a Japanese dev care about skin color.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

"Itagaki said in a Facebook reply that Lisa is Latin (Latina) so yeah she could be mexican and grew up in the US

why ask questions like this when you could ask WHY IS LISA A SCIENTIST AT THE AGE OF 20! lol DOA makes little sense"

"Her nationality is American."

I was corroborating his word which some people tried to deny, with the in-game facts. I'm not blowing it out of proportion, just some people jumped on me with a seemingly poor sense of what nationality entailed. Anyways, carry on.

edit: In other words I was trying to join in with the point of your post.

be careful of the perception problem when it comes to defining Nationality to ethnic groups in America

being American always comes second to where folks are from, there is a perception issue when you just come out and say American people do not accept that with the pride it defines

often you will hear people born in the US say something like "I'm Irish" this is what most Americans take pride in. It is not a misunderstanding of what Nationality is as it is an American issue when it comes to defining in finer detail where a person is from or who a person feels they are they love their roots they love their parents and heritage

A Latina could have been born in North Carolina but they don't see themselves as anything but

 

[ShinMaruku]

Maybe people are defending his argument and not the dude itself?

The fact you may not like him, dosn't mean he's wrong.

His arguement is based off a disingenuous notion. She is darker in the game than the promo material. She's a rather postive female character in this game who breaks many stereotypes. How many games have you seen where it's a minority female scientist in the game? She is part of the team that made Alpha and Phase 4.

I don't like the man nor his weak attempt to bitch at a game he had no part in. This is how he operates sniping games he felt slighted by. Are you not a bit unsettled by "My daughters are aging" part? Have you forgotten this man had sexual harassment allegations?

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

That's the the light reacting to her make up bruh.

 

[Orochinagis]

In English, American refers to someone born in the US.

In the rest of america it means all america but I guess thats why "Latina" word is for you, to cover the rest of america outside canada.

Also didnt she was protraited as Brazilian too?

 

[Mechanized]

Are some of you people really acting like this wasn't a deliberate change? He's understandably pissed.

Please read the thread.

Comparing in game images, i really don't see the issue. It looks like almost the same shade of brown, but with more of a shine to it.

 

[SixMachine]

In the rest of america it means all america.

I actually I disagree because the usually layman wouldn't associate a nationality to all of the americas. Nationality of course implies a nation, and the Americas, North and South are continents and are comprised of multiple nations. Usually when people refer to a nation shorthand as America, it usually implies United States of America. If someone implies a nationality to the continents, that is pretty wrong because the landmasses are continents.

 

[a Master Ninja]

NG2 was a downgrade.

Tecmo pushed out Itagaki and a lot of Team Ninja senior staff before the game came out. Even if it is content complete it's clearly not a tuned, finished product.

On the other hand, the best defense for DOA4 is that it was "rushed for launch", but that doesn't explain all the choices.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

man I need that Rin costume

Does Rin have black bandages covering her boobs when her clothing gets damaged?

I have not followed SK closely at all

 

[TheYanger]

In the rest of america it means all america but I guess thats why "Latina" word is for you, to cover the rest of america outside canada.

Ok? Not sure if you're trying to be obtuse, but yes in English and in the world at large, American means someone from the united states of America. There is no continent of "America" there is only one country that has "America" in the name. If someone were to specify "North american" it would include Canada (and mexico though I wouldn't be surprised if people fucked that part up) and South American would mean brazilian etc. You can be upset at the word being adopted like that, but the simple fact is Nationality refers to the nation from which you hail, of which there is only one America and that is the generally recognized manner in which it is used.

 

[SalvaPot]

It seems to be a trend lately and I really dislike it.

 

[Yarbskoo]

Japanese designers seem have some... preconceptions about skin color.

To illustrate the point, here is Cia, one of the main villains of Hyrule Warriors:

She is also the one with the most questionable design - and not because she is The Seductress, but because storywise she was corrupted by evil forces, and her aspect before, as a good girl, was:

Oh boy.

The skin color is only one aspect of her character's design that has been darkened. The whole design is much darker, (including her eyes, I think, I haven't actually played it yet) which is pretty much in line with the dark = evil aesthetic that's been around forever. She is, after all, the "Black Sorceress", who has lost the "light half" of her soul. Link's alternate is also referred to as "Dark Link", and has damn near black skin color.

I think it has less to do with race and more to do with darkness being associated with evil on a cultural level. I don't think George Lucas, for example, had race in mind when he conceived the "Dark Side" of the Force to be the antagonistic side.

 

[Shizuka]

As u know im pro.

 

[zennyzz]

Considering his comparison is incredibly misleading and inaccurate - and almost definitely intentionally so, yes, yes he is being salty.

Somebody else provided an even more apt comparison image. And she's definitely lighter.

Not counting that those two in the example you gave are a promotional image against an in game model, where as the promotional image was placed against another promotional image, that was in fact much lighter.

Itagaki can be crazy at times, but this go around, his soapbox is legit,

 

[NEO0MJ]

I can see why he would be bothered by it. Though I used to think she was a white woman who tanned too much before

Unfortunately, a lot of Japanese media seems to use darker skin as a visual shorthand for "corrupted by an evil power". Just off the top of my head I can list Akuma, Evil Ryu, and Polnareff wielding Anubis from Jojo.

Yeah, it's a pretty common trope in Japanese media.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Tecmo pushed out Itagaki and a lot of Team Ninja senior staff before the game came out. Even if it is content complete it's clearly not a tuned, finished product.

On the other hand, the best defense for DOA4 is that it was "rushed for launch", but that doesn't explain all the choices.

DOA4 was stalled from launch so we can't say "rushed for launch" That game was exactly what he wanted.

All the other games he put out has shown that NG:B was the aberration. (Also was the third iteration of Ninja Gaiden)

 

[FluxWaveZ]

The skin color is only one aspect of her character's design that has been darkened. The whole design is much darker, (including her eyes, I think, I haven't actually played it yet) which is pretty much in line with the dark = evil aesthetic that's been around forever. She is, after all, the "Black Sorceress", who has lost the "light half" of her soul. Link's alternate is also referred to as "Dark Link", and has damn near black skin color.

I think it has less to do with race and more to do with darkness being associated with evil on a cultural level. I don't think George Lucas, for example, had race in mind when he conceived the "Dark Side" of the Force to be the antagonistic side.

Of course someone would try to justify it.

 

[GreatestHits]

Welp guys, I'm officially biased. I posted earlier that Itagaki would not accept my friends request. A few minutes later he liked and commented my cover photo!!! wtf? (So clearly the dude is a genius)

EDIT: OK so he talks to everybody. Dude's awesome

 

[KyleCross]

Regardless if Itagaki got fooled, It's nice to see a Japanese dev care about skin color.

I honestly don't think he actually does care, I truly believe he just wanted a reason to bitch about DOA5.

It seems to be a trend lately and I really dislike it.

This is NOT a white-wash. Robin was never tan, that is something Toei did in the anime. They did it to a bunch of characters in One Piece. Oda even changed a few of his color schemes from what they were originally in volume covers and colorspreads to that of the anime just for consistency, but this is one change he didn't do. When the time-skip happened Toei decided to start using the correct skintone for her.

They still color her eyes blue and give her hair blue highlights tho for some stupid reason, her eyes are brown and she has basic black hair in the manga colorings.

 

[Yarbskoo]

Of course someone would try to justify it.

Not saying it's right, just saying it's probably not worth getting worked up over.

 

[ShinMaruku]

I honestly don't think he actually does care, I truly believe he just wanted a reason to bitch about DOA5.

That is 100% what it is. He just used an acceptable target to not look like a bitcher.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Not saying it's right, just saying it's probably not worth getting worked up over.

Does that shade of black look like this:

...to you?

 

[Yarbskoo]

Does that shade of black look like this:

...to you?

Is the degree to which the skin is darkened relevant?

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

I like that he's taking a stand on something some might not see is a big deal.

The transformation is almost predictable and inevitable but it doesn't mean it's acceptable.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Is the degree to which the skin is darkened relevant?

I would think so? One is human skinned and the other is actually black. I don't see the point in comparing the two when the issue comes from "darker skin being representative of evil", and I especially don't see the point in bringing up a term like "the Dark Side."

 

[ShinMaruku]

Does that shade of black look like this:

...to you?

I would comment but when you have

to

You know it's some Japanese culture thing.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Welp guys, I'm officially biased. I posted earlier that Itagaki would not accept my friends request. A few minutes later he liked and commented my cover photo!!! wtf? (So clearly the dude is a genius)

EDIT: OK so he talks to everybody. Dude's awesome

well there you go

 

[Docflem]

The skin color is only one aspect of her character's design that has been darkened. The whole design is much darker, (including her eyes, I think, I haven't actually played it yet) which is pretty much in line with the dark = evil aesthetic that's been around forever. She is, after all, the "Black Sorceress", who has lost the "light half" of her soul. Link's alternate is also referred to as "Dark Link", and has damn near black skin color.

I think it has less to do with race and more to do with darkness being associated with evil on a cultural level. I don't think George Lucas, for example, had race in mind when he conceived the "Dark Side" of the Force to be the antagonistic side.

I think hes does have a point though, when someone is consumed by the dark side they often become pale, they don't change to a straight up black person. Without any other context I think that is a seriously messed up example.

 

[Infinite]

Only way that could be true is she being your half-sister, because latin,latina,etc is not a race.

She is my half-sister. Her dad is Latino and our mom is Afro-Caribbean.

 

[Toxi]

The skin color is only one aspect of her character's design that has been darkened. The whole design is much darker, (including her eyes, I think, I haven't actually played it yet) which is pretty much in line with the dark = evil aesthetic that's been around forever. She is, after all, the "Black Sorceress", who has lost the "light half" of her soul. Link's alternate is also referred to as "Dark Link", and has damn near black skin color.

I think it has less to do with race and more to do with darkness being associated with evil on a cultural level. I don't think George Lucas, for example, had race in mind when he conceived the "Dark Side" of the Force to be the antagonistic side.

Dark Link is literally black, like a shadow (which is what he's supposed to look like). He does not have a human skin-tone.

Cia is dark-skinned to represent the corruption of a light-skinned character. That's a lot more uncomfortable.

 

[injurai]

be careful of the perception problem when it comes to defining Nationality to ethnic groups in America

being American always comes second to where folks are from, there is a perception issue when you just come out and say American people do not accept that with the pride it defines

often you will hear people born in the US say something like "I'm Irish" this is what most Americans take pride in. It is not a misunderstanding of what Nationality is as it is an American issue when it comes to defining in finer detail where a person is from or who a person feels they are they love their roots they love their parents and heritage

A Latina could have been born in North Carolina but they don't see themselves as anything but

I'm well aware and I wasn't in danger of falling into that pitfall here. Because her character is of American nationality and of have latin ethnicity. That's her character. Saying so says nothing about other real people can identify, or about people that may identify with her but not so as Americans.

 

[abadguy]

He also made shit. Look at DOA4. NG2 was a downgrade. NG:B was the abberation and people are treating it like it's the norm from him. You guys are not being logical.

Sorry but DOA5 doesn't play drastically different from DOA4. A few tweaks here and there , hardly the complete gameplay 180 it's made out to be. If NG 2 was a "downgrade" that makes NG3 look even worse under Ninja Dog and Hayashit since it's not even on that game's level let along NG:Black.

 

[freeofgreed]

It's hilarious/sad how people still get behind Itagaki. And in this very thread despite evidence the white-washed photo is bullshit people still back this tool. Lisa is dark skinned in DoA5. Period. No white-washing was done.

This isn't so much a white washing issue as it is a Colourism issue. Yes she's is dark skinned but the degree is also important. Colourism aka the notion that lighter skinned is better than darker skin, is something that pretty much plagues almost every ethnic group that doesn't originate from Europe

DOA5 has been out for how long and now yall want to be upset that a fictional character with a not so clear background became a shade lighter?

Isn't there bigger fish to fry like the fact that there isn't a black female character in the game to begin with, or the fact that the one black character that is in the game looks ridiculous?

People need to stop complaining to Itagaki who has nothing to do with the game anymore. I'm sure he's real busy with the latest game he's working on.

This always has and always will be an awful argument. You act as if people can't be mad at her skin lightening and also be at at the lack of diversity in the cast. Also when the game came out I'm pretty sure this was being discussed a lot on Gaf. And even if it wasn't who cares? Just because the games a few years old does that mean we can't look at it critically anymore?

Considering his comparison is incredibly misleading and inaccurate - and almost definitely intentionally so, yes, yes he is being salty.

No it's not, I love how you keep clinging selectively to that one image and continuously deny all the other examples in this thread. Also even if he is a known troll that doesn't make his point any less valid.

 

[ajjow]

Unfortunately, a lot of Japanese media seems to use darker skin as a visual shorthand for "corrupted by an evil power". Just off the top of my head I can list Akuma, Evil Ryu, and Polnareff wielding Anubis from Jojo.

I dont understand how this can be a offense. She actually became hot and good looking by becoming evil.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Sorry but DOA5 doesn't play drastically different from DOA4. A few tweaks here and there , hardly the complete gameplay 180 it's made out to be. If NG 2 was a "downgrade" that makes NG3 look even worse under Ninja Dog and Hayashit since it's not even on that game's level let along NG:Black.

I hope you know the director of black was Hayashi.

And if you think DOA5 and 4 play the same I have a bridge to sell you. In DOA4 people played overly defensive because if you got countered you;d lose 30% of their life. Look at the top level play of DOA4 and DOA5 and tell me it's the same game.

Your use of ninja dog and hayashit shows your bias quite openly.

 

[freeofgreed]

I dont understand how this can be a offense. She actually became hot and good looking by becoming evil.

You don't understand why Dark skin = evil might be offensive to people with dark skin?

 

[injurai]

This isn't so much a white washing issue as it is a Colourism issue. Yes she's is dark skinned but the degree is also important. Colourism aka the notion that lighter skinned is better than darker skin, is something that pretty much plagues almost every ethnic group that doesn't originate from Europe.

That has to do with the history of physical labor class vs the ruling and intellectual labor classes. It was a thing in Europe too. Just more recently though tanning has become stylish because it's associated with vacationing and living up life.

 

[Village]

I think it has less to do with race and more to do with darkness being associated with evil on a cultural level..

Thats bad.


Thats BAAAAAAD

Thats a bad thing.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Itagaki's list of movies he liked and those he reviewed are interesting also his Birthday is in 3 days

 

[Dark Ninja]

Um Lisa is darker in the actual game than whats depicted on the right. It also depends on the stage lighting she could look lighter

 

[freeofgreed]

That has to do with the history of physical labor class vs the ruling and intellectual labor classes. It was a thing in Europe too. Just more recently though tanning has become stylish because it's associated with vacationing and living up life.

In Europe and some east asian cultures yes this is the reason, but in a lot of other cultures it really boils down to it being that lighter skin is closer to white skin (and European ancestry) and is thus preferable on that basis alone..

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Um Lisa is darker in the actual game than whats depicted on the right. It also depends on the stage lighting she could look lighter

Lewd :3

 

[RockTurtle]

Um Lisa is darker in the actual game than whats depicted on the right. It also depends on the stage lighting she could look lighter

i'm still not convinced. perhaps so more screenshots as proof?

 

[ShinMaruku]

Personally I don't think a good conversation can occur here because some have a blatant Itagaki bias, as well as some things can just be seen as picking a easy target to bash. Like the Zelda thing. Nintendo was not thinking 7 steps ahead when making that design. Hell most developers don't do that.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Thats bad.


Thats BAAAAAAD

Thats a bad thing.

I don't really think so, strictly speaking. Having the classic dichotomy of black vs. white to represent evil vs. good is fine, I think. A magic spell having a dark purple aura to represent its malicious nature, while a healing spell has a bright blue aura to represent a benevolent one just feels natural.

However, it becomes utterly idiotic when that's extended to human skin color, and subsequently justified by people because of "darkness being associated with evil on a cultural level."

 

[a Master Ninja]

OG Team Ninja creates Ninja Gaiden BLACK, new Team Ninja turns it into Ninja Gaiden SIGMA.

#blackgamesmatter

 

[Tye The Czar]

So yeah, Itagaki has openly written on Facebook how he feels about Lisa having a much lighter skin colour than in previous Games. He even goes that far and calls it discrimination. What do you Guys think about that?


Other quotes by him from the comments:





His Post on Facebook

I definitely sympathize with Itagaki, doubly so since Tecmo is essentially in control of his own baby.

I don't think it's conscious discrimination. But the change heavily implies that you can't be beautiful if your skin's too dark.

And that's the thing. Most of the people who do or say "racist" or "sexist" things are unaware of the impact or implications. Going so far as to label them as racist, sexist or bigoted like that enlightens nobody, so then they call you a SJW and start stereotyping the more level-headed critics who point these things out.

 

[Yarbskoo]

I would think so? One is human skinned and the other is actually black. I don't see the point in comparing the two when the issue comes from "darker skin being representative of evil", and I especially don't see the point in bringing up a term like "the Dark Side."

I guess I didn't get the point across in the original post, but the reason I don't see the darker skin being a problem here is that everything about her character's design is darker, not just her skin. Her eyes, clothes, just about everything but her hair is darker. Darkness being representative of evil is not restricted to just skin color.

Skin color isn't restricted to characters being "corrupted" either. Tetra and Sheik both had darker skin than Princess Zelda, but they weren't portrayed as morally different characters. Hilda's skin is also slightly darker than Zelda's skin, but that doesn't necessarily indicate corruption either. Their skin colors changed according to a change in the character's overall design.

I think hes does have a point though, when someone is consumed by the dark side they often become pale, they don't change to a straight up black person. Without any other context I think that is a seriously messed up example.

Because "consumed by the dark side" is not an existing phenomena, is this not also an example of a cultural aesthetic thing? Surely we are not to conclude that it's an indication of some kind of prejudice against pale people.

Cia is dark-skinned to represent the corruption of a light-skinned character. That's a lot more uncomfortable.

I guess I don't see Cia as a dark skinned person, I just see her as a "dark" person, both in terms of overall color palette and in an abstract "dark side" aspect. Her skin color is just one part of the overall design of the character.

Thats bad.


Thats BAAAAAAD

Thats a bad thing.

Perhaps, but it is a thing. Darth Vader, Venom, General Zod, Sauron. These characters may not have had black skin, but black was a key component in their character's design. Darth Vader only stopped being black when he turned to the light side. And not "black" as in African descent, but "black" as in overall color scheme.

 

[jerry1594]

Does that shade of black look like this:

...to you?

Akuma is black confirmed