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[Dalek]

Italy proposal to jail vegans who impose diet on children

Parents who restrict their children to a vegan diet could face a jail term if a controversial bill is passed by the Italian parliament.

Such parents, the draft bill claims, are imposing a diet "devoid of essential elements for [children's] healthy and balanced growth".

It has been proposed by Elvira Savino of the centre-right Forza Italia party.
It follows a number of high-profile Italian cases where malnourished children have been taken into care.

In four cases over the last 18 months, malnourished children were hospitalised in Italy after being fed a vegan diet.

However, dieticians such as the American Dietetic Association say vegan diets are suitable for children but advise that care needs to be taken to ensure children are receiving the full range of required nutrients - in particular vitamin B12.

Doctors speculated in some cases that the guardians of the hospitalised children may not have understood how to supplement a vegan diet to make it safe for children.

Ms Savino's proposed bill will be discussed by parliamentary committees before going to the chamber for debate - probably later this year, reports Reuters news agency.
Meanwhile, three rival bills are on the table - all aiming to make vegan and vegetarian options more commonplace in Italian canteens.

In the preamble of Ms Savino's bill (in Italian), she highlights the spreading belief in Italy of "substantial health benefits" provided by a vegetarian or vegan diet.

"There is no objection if the person making this choice is an informed adult. The problem arises when children are involved... The vegetarian or vegan diet is, in fact, deficient in zinc, iron, vitamin D, vitamin B12 and omega-3".

Her draft bill aims to "stigmatise the reckless and dangerous eating behaviour imposed by parents" who pursue a vegan diet, "to the detriment of minors".

Offenders would face up to a year in jail - rising to a maximum of four years where the child suffers illness or permanent injury and six years in the case of death.

 

[Tagyhag]

Come on, if they actually do get all their nutrients, then why send them to jail?

By that logic we should be sending the parents of obese kids to jail.

 

[whitemex88]

A little conflicted on this.

On one hand you have the responsible vegan parent that can find all the nutrition from vegan sources

And on the other are the idiots who can't and cause they're children harm.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Parents impart their beliefs to children all the time. This one is not really harmful if done correctly so who cares.

 

[Htown]

Come on, if they actually do get all their nutrients, then why send them to jail?

"It follows a number of high-profile Italian cases where malnourished children have been taken into care."

 

[brian577]

I'm strangely OK with this. If only this could be extended to religion and other personal beliefs.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

I'm of mind that you shouldn't push your beliefs on your kids that could essentially get them bullied in the wrong situations.

But I also don't believe you should push your religion on them and let them come up with their own conclusion. Still this is not the answer. Taking the children away from them sure, especially if not having a proper diet to grow healthy.

 

[Goldfishking]

By that logic we should be sending the parents of obese kids to jail.

Even though I get what you're saying, that's a very poor analogy and not comparable at all.

 

[HStallion]

I think the problem is a lot of Vegan parents think they know what they're talking about and because they diet they subsisted on worked for them as adults they think it can be applied to children. Its totally possible to raise your kid as a Vegan but you have to be far more astute and intelligent about your food choices because you are cutting out so many different options that would be normal avenues for nutrition. Obviously you can fuck your kid up through a non Vegan diet but still.

 

[V_Arnold]

But living off sugary Coke and Mcdonalds burgers is totally healthy. Nice.

I read this from a different source, where it says not veganism is punished, but malnutrition...which should already be punished.

Even though I get what you're saying, that's a very poor analogy and not comparable at all.

Except it is comparable, it is the very same offense.

 

[Mugsy]

"It follows a number of high-profile Italian cases where malnourished children have been taken into care."

Shouldn't this fall under existing child protection laws of malnourishing your children?

 

[PSqueak]

A little conflicted on this.

On one hand you have the responsible vegan parent that can find all the nutrition from vegan sources

And on the other are the idiots who can't and cause they're children harm.

Children come first, if children could be in harm from irresponsible vegans, then the law should pass or they should set official guidelines in the very least.

So all the responsible vegans in italy should blame said idiots and not meat eaters as they will likely do.

In any case, shouldn't Veganism be a choice?

 

[Futureman]

I'm strangely OK with this. If only this could be extended to religion and other personal beliefs.

so you don't agree with dietitians that say a vegan diet is safe for children as long as you supplement them with B12?

In any case, shouldn't Veganism be a choice?

veganism is an ethical life stance (the diet is a component of that), so telling vegan parents to feed their kids meat doesn't fly.

 

[Tagyhag]

"It follows a number of high-profile Italian cases where malnourished children have been taken into care."

Yes and malnourished children tend to NOT get the nutrients they need. So, why punish everyone?

 

[Alavard]

Children come first, if children could be in harm from irresponsible vegans, then the law should pass or they should set official guidelines in the very least.

Children *could* be in harm from any parent. But you don't take them away until they actually are or unless they're at significant risk of being at harm shortly.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Eh more nutritional education instead would probably be better.
That said I really dislike parents that don't give their children the choice. My mother is vegetarian but she never denied us meat. I tried it out for a couple years during my teens and decided it wasn't for me.
Same with my sister and her kids, it's their choice to be vegan or not 1 of them decided to be vegan the other was for some time.

 

[Jeffrey]

We need the same thing here in the US, but for people not vaccinating their kids.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Come on, if they actually do get all their nutrients, then why send them to jail?

By that logic we should be sending the parents of obese kids to jail.

Only if the parents are forcefeeding them far beyond the daily recommended food intake.

 

[Onlinehero]

Children come first, if children could be in harm from irresponsible vegans, then the law should pass or they should set official guidelines in the very least.

So all the responsible vegans in italy should blame said idiots and not meat eaters as they will likely do.

In any case, shouldn't Veganism be a choice?

The "choice" for what children eat is most likely made by the parents buying food. If they eat nothing but meat and potatoes the kids will suffer as well, and the kids won't be able to choose a healthy vegan diet for themselves.

This bill is pure uneducated idiocy, and that's coming from a murderous cheese-eater (cheese is bad for you).

 

[Llyranor]

In any case, shouldn't Veganism be a choice?

Shouldn't eating meat be a choice? But parents have no problem feeding their kids that before they can make any sort of informed consent.

 

[iamblades]

Shouldn't this fall under existing child protection laws of malnourishing your children?

Ideally, but it may be difficult to successfully prosecute under existing child neglect laws because they can't prove mens rea.

 

[moggio]

Shouldn't eating meat be a choice? But parents have no problem feeding their kids that.

Plenty of malnourished meat-eating kids around too (see: USA).

 

[PSqueak]

veganism is an ethical life stance (the diet is a component of that), so telling vegan parents to feed their kids meat doesn't fly.

Not all Vegans choose the diet on "ethic" grounds, and in any case it still should be a life choice, like the religion comparison already being thrown around.

Forcing a kid to eat vegan when they might not want it, how would it be different from forcing a kid to eat meat when they might not want it?

Just because the parents might have an ideological reason for it, doesn't mean the child should follow suit.

Shouldn't eating meat be a choice? But parents have no problem feeding their kids that before they can make any sort of informed consent.

It should be, but removing the option and forcing the kid your choice (specially in the case of not knowing how to properly do it) is wrong, if you eat nothing but meat without proper balance, that also is unhealthy.

I mean, vegans exist because they rebelled against the idea of eating meat, possibly despite their parents' life choices.

The law is being thrown around because the cited occurrence of many vegan parents failing to provide accurate nourishment for their kids. Like i mentioned, if not this law, actual government approve guidelines for effective kid vegan diets should happen, so idiots stop malnourishing their kids.

 

[johancruijff]

it's just a bill proposed by one MP from the opposition

1) it'll never pass

2) fairly sure is unconstitutional

made to stir some shit and ride the recent case of a couple of malnourished kids

nice title though

 

[CyberMiguel]

Curiously, I'm fine with this. In fact, I strongly support it, mainly because Italy has one of the greatest culinary tradition the western culture has ever built. Traditional italian cuisine is pretty balanced and is often portrayed along with french cuisine as one of the most healthy diet (the "mediterranean diet") in western hemisphere.

Measures like that law also helps to keep that centennial culinary tradition alive and well.

 

[cappie88]

typical move from forza italia, whose electorate is highly tv-indoctrinated

 

[Duffman]

So what about those who are vegans because of their religion? This bill is super problematic.

 

[johancruijff]

Traditional italian cuisine is pretty balanced and is often portrayed along with french cuisine as one of the most healthy diet (the "mediterranean diet") in western hemisphere.

that, ironically in this case, is really close to a vegetarian or vegan diet

 

[moggio]

Curiously, I'm fine with this. In fact, I strongly support it, mainly because Italy has one of the greatest culinary tradition the western culture has ever built. Traditional italian cuisine is pretty balanced and is often portrayed along with french cuisine as one of the most healthiest diet (the "mediterranean diet").

Measures like that law also helps to keep that centennial culinary tradition alive and well.

I'm not convinced the Italian culinary tradition is at risk from a tiny minority of Vegans and Vegetarians tbh.

Would be great if it was!

 

[CornBurrito]

A little conflicted on this.

On one hand you have the responsible vegan parent that can find all the nutrition from vegan sources

And on the other are the idiots who can't and cause they're children harm.

Don't see how veganism plays into this.

A typical American child may consume:

Cinammon Toast Crunch cereal + glass of OJ for breakfast

Pizza + apple + cookie for lunch

McDonalds for dinner.

Wow. Great nutrition.

I know this is Italy, but I don't think meat eating parents have any better idea about nutrition. Childhood Obesity wouldn't be such a worldwide problem if so.

 

[CornBurrito]

Curiously, I'm fine with this. In fact, I strongly support it, mainly because Italy has one of the greatest culinary tradition the western culture has ever built. Traditional italian cuisine is pretty balanced and is often portrayed along with french cuisine as one of the most healthy diet (the "mediterranean diet") in western hemisphere.

Measures like that law also helps to keep that centennial culinary tradition alive and well.

Sounds like you'd support laws that banned keeping Halal or Kosher.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Shouldn't eating meat be a choice? But parents have no problem feeding their kids that before they can make any sort of informed consent.

When a kid can say yes or no give them the option between mcdonalds and the vegan equivalent.

I feel that most kids will want to eat mcdonalds and meat because they'll like it more and to fit in with their friends. When you have to go hang out with friends and their parents and all of a sudden they realize you cant eat anything because your parents raised you vegan?

If the kid him/herself chooses it without being bullied into it by parents showing them graphic images of animal cruelty then so be it, but the norm is to eat meat and vegetables, going to the opposite end isn't an argument about choice when the kid would likely choose the meat.

 

[Htown]

Shouldn't this fall under existing child protection laws of malnourishing your children?

Yes.

 

[CornBurrito]

Children come first, if children could be in harm from irresponsible vegans, then the law should pass or they should set official guidelines in the very least.

So all the responsible vegans in italy should blame said idiots and not meat eaters as they will likely do.

In any case, shouldn't Veganism be a choice?

Veganism is a choice. And one that I see no problem in "forcing" on a child.

Children eat what their parents give them. That's always the case. If the child isn't being malnourished what's the issue?

When a kid can say yes or no give them the option between mcdonalds and the vegan equivalent.

I feel that most kids will want to eat mcdonalds and meat because they'll like it more and to fit in with their friends. When you have to go hang out with friends and their parents and all of a sudden they realize you cant eat anything because your parents raised you vegan?

If the kid him/herself chooses it without being bullied into it by parents showing them graphic images of animal cruelty then so be it, but the norm is to eat meat and vegetables, going to the opposite end isn't an argument about choice when the kid would likely choose the meat.

What a load of shit. Humans are genetically predisposed to like salt, sugar, and fat.

If I gave a kid a choice between grilled chicken breasts vs McNuggets + ketchup, they'd choose the latter in the vast majority of cases. Is a parent wrong then for making them eat the former?

 

[sankt-Antonio]

so you don't agree with dietitians that say a vegan diet is safe for children as long as you supplement them with B12?

While i think this "law" would be nonsense (not taking care of your children however should be punished), a diet that needs supplements is imo not a ideal diet to raise a child with.

 

[CornBurrito]

While i think this "law" would be nonsense (not taking care of your children however should be punished), a diet that needs supplements is imo not a ideal diet to raise a child with.

Why exactly? Why does it matter from what source the nutrition is derived from?

 

[SkeptiMism]

Not all Vegans choose the diet on "ethic" grounds, and in any case it still should be a life choice, like the religion comparison already being thrown around.

Forcing a kid to eat vegan when they might not want it, how would it be different from forcing a kid to eat meat when they might not want it?

Just because the parents might have an ideological reason for it, doesn't mean the child should follow suit.

I mean, vegans exist because they rebelled against the idea of eating meat, possibly despite their parents' life choices.

I don't think it's wise to teach kids eating meat is murder or anything like that, but if you have children, you don't always feed them what they want. A vegan couple shouldn't have to make another set of food just for their kid (assuming their food contains enough nutrients). It's a ridiculous and unsustainable idea for most people - the same goes for parents eating meat when their kid wants to eat vegetarian. That's not forcing really, it's just common sense.

When the child is old enough they can choose to get and cook their own food if they wish, and in that case it'd be good if parents would be supportive of that. If in that case parents would act against it, then we could talk about forcing. Or if the kid goes to a friend's house and wants to taste some meat there.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Why exactly? Why does it matter from what source the nutrition is derived from?

Nutrients absorbed from actual food are well known to be absorbed better into the body than nutrients from supplements.

 

[marrec]

It's about time Vegans be held accountable for their crimes.

 

[freeofgreed]

But living off sugary Coke and Mcdonalds burgers is totally healthy. Nice.

I read this from a different source, where it says not veganism is punished, but malnutrition...which should already be punished.



Except it is comparable, it is the very same offense.

Not really. Parents raising their kids to be Vegans is intentional. No parent is intentionally raising their kids to be fat. Also Obesity tends to be more common among lower income people who don't have the access nor the money to feed their children actual healthy food.

 

[SuperBowser]

I think it's dumb. There are really few vegans in the world and this bill is probably aimed at a few high profile cases.

Tackling childhood obesity would improve child health 10000x more.

 

[moggio]

While i think this "law" would be nonsense (not taking care of your children however should be punished), a diet that needs supplements is imo not a ideal diet to raise a child with.

So if you were deficient in Vitamin C you wouldn't supplement your diet with an orange?

 

[CTLance]

I think focusing on the vegan part was unnecessary. Parents that fail at parenting on such a fundamental level as to cripple their own child by giving it the wrong food should get a good thwack from the government. No matter why, no matter how.

Vegan or whatever has no relation to that. It is a matter of education for both the parents and the little squirts. Plus not-overworked doctors that get to see the little ones at regular check ups so that any possible damage can be contained before it gets too bad.

 

[Llyranor]

While i think this "law" would be nonsense (not taking care of your children however should be punished), a diet that needs supplements is imo not a ideal diet to raise a child with.

We give vitamin D to breastfed infants.

A lot of food we eat is also supplemented directly into the product. How about B12 supplemented in the food (same as we already do for calcium, Vit C, Vit D, etc)?

 

[sangreal]

Don't see how veganism plays into this.

A typical American child may consume:

Cinammon Toast Crunch cereal + glass of OJ for breakfast

Pizza + apple + cookie for lunch

McDonalds for dinner.

Wow. Great nutrition.

I know this is Italy, but I don't think meat eating parents have any better idea about nutrition. Childhood Obesity wouldn't be such a worldwide problem if so.

those meals have plenty of nutrients; especially the processed food which is all fortified

not saying its a good diet, but I don't think it helps your case. eating junk calorie-dense processed foods doesn't make you malnourished. eating vegan without knowing what you're doing will, at least according to the doctors in the OP

Doctors speculated in some cases that the guardians of the hospitalised children may not have understood how to supplement a vegan diet to make it safe for children.

 

[gutter_trash]

good, child abuse is child abuse

 

[cdyhybrid]

Throw in people who put pineapple on pizza and I'll move there tomorrow.

 

[CornBurrito]

Nutrients absorbed from actual food are well known to be absorbed better into the body than nutrients from supplements.

Yes, I mean in the context of the child not being malnourished.

 

[Sickboy007]

This will never pass lol. I'd be surprised if there's even a vote on it.

 

[DragonSworne]

Wish this was applied to religion as well.