FunkyMunkey
Banned
Many people don't give their child enough proper fucking nutrients when imposing their same vegan diet onto them. A childs diet has different needs than a fully grown adult
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Italy proposal to jail vegans who impose diet on children
- Thread starter Dalek
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Many people don't give their child enough proper fucking nutrients when imposing their same vegan diet onto them. A childs diet has different needs than a fully grown adult
God Dayumm
Banned
You should. But the logic is not exactly equivalent. A vegan diet may or may not cause malnutrition on the kid, while obesity is already visible sign of malnutrition and abuse. So yeah,this proposal is wrong
The actual law proposal doesn't target only vegans, as it seems.
I'd say that the problem of malnourished kids due to uneducated parents forcing their particular eating choices could be prevented by making mandatory to parents that have declared themselves as, for example, vegans and want to raise their kids as such to have their kids constantly checked by a nutritionist.
The nutrionist would prescribe the diet and check its effect on the child's health.
In case of:
- Malnourishment or illness
- Refusal from the child on persisting on that type of diet
The diet should be discontinued and the parents should be forced into integrating additional food that the nutrionist prescribes.
In case the parents refuse or don't follow the prescrition, measure ranging from fines to definitive arrest should be taken.
Also, the obesity thing is a false equivalency: to my understanding, non-illnes-induced obesity is prevalently caused by parents overfeeding their children in order to answer their glutton
and it's not forced
I'd say that the problem of malnourished kids due to uneducated parents forcing their particular eating choices could be prevented by making mandatory to parents that have declared themselves as, for example, vegans and want to raise their kids as such to have their kids constantly checked by a nutritionist.
The nutrionist would prescribe the diet and check its effect on the child's health.
In case of:
- Malnourishment or illness
- Refusal from the child on persisting on that type of diet
The diet should be discontinued and the parents should be forced into integrating additional food that the nutrionist prescribes.
In case the parents refuse or don't follow the prescrition, measure ranging from fines to definitive arrest should be taken.
But this thing comes from Forza Italia so it actually is a publicity stunt to gather some couisine-conservatives
Also, the obesity thing is a false equivalency: to my understanding, non-illnes-induced obesity is prevalently caused by parents overfeeding their children in order to answer their glutton
(This was totally my case)
And more parents do worse with meat based diets.
I don't track it any more than you do. You have some meat; I have a bowl of bran flakes, or some Marmite, or some Oat milk or a vitamin tablet or whatever.
The difference is I know I'm getting the RDA of B12 but you can't be so sure.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
OK? Having your child eat too much shitty food or too much food period, is quite different than pure malnourishment. We are omnivores
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/feb/10/nutrition-hunger-food-children-vitamins-us
Yeah, we are omnivores - not carnivores.
That means a diet with meat is not a requirement to be healthy.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Yeah, no.
sankt-Antonio
:^)--?-<
See, you are the kind of vegan who knows what he needs to eat. And as you described, all i need is some meat while you need more...special stuff, be it Marmite (i only heard legends of its taste
) or pills. Booth these things need you, as a vegan , to understand your diet and needs. Its not as simple as "i'm not going to eat animals or product of animals, period". Its a complex diet to master. Completely healthy if you know what your doing but not as failsafe.
Edit: Another opportunity to give a shout out to a vegan hero of mine: Željko Mavrović, 27-1 pro boxer who was once called the strongest vegan on the planet, by Croatian media of course
eso76
Member
Malnourishment should be punished.
Veganism doesn't always mean malnutrition, and not being vegan doesn't always mean healthy.
Having said that, a lot of you seem to think meat = McDonald.
Thankfully, "real" food is not hard to find in Italy (yet). I'm talking meat that doesn't come from intensive farming, fruit and vegetables grown naturally etc.
Veganism doesn't always mean malnutrition, and not being vegan doesn't always mean healthy.
Having said that, a lot of you seem to think meat = McDonald.
Thankfully, "real" food is not hard to find in Italy (yet). I'm talking meat that doesn't come from intensive farming, fruit and vegetables grown naturally etc.
umop_3pisdn
Member
You shouldn't push things on your kids, sure, but that distinction makes me think of that idiom about leading a horse to water, the difference between exemplifying and pushing is just an overt concern in whether your kids beliefs conform with yours. Obviously something like that has the same problem as those parents that try to live through their kids, because it is essentially the same thing.
But from a developmental perspective, kids are going to pick up values from their surroundings regardless of what you do. And the developmental stage where they re-evaluate and re-integrate those values comes in around adolescence. Kids basically start off with a kind of blind faith ('these are just the values I know'), and then once they start becoming individuals aware of their place in the world, they have the resources to reconsider whether those values are appropriate for them or not, and then to discard the ones that aren't, and to hold on to the ones that are.
So if kids are going to absorb values no matter what, you may as well represent yours. That way at the very least you're modelling to them how to be a principled person, or how to be a person that has convictions that they are willing to stand up for. It's just that those convictions have to be sane or defensible ones, but that's not a terribly high standard, they can be somewhat idiosyncratic or 'unique' as long as they're reasonably humane or not perverse, because at some point the kid is going to question them anyways. So I think religion and diet are completely fine, you just shouldn't be a fanatic, no matter what your values are, your priority in raising children should be raising autonomous individuals.
In fact giving them the experience to resist populism might be the the better thing, which is again something that strong principles can do. Naming your kid 'Moon Unit' might not work so great, but 'this is the reason why your parents don't eat meat' might.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
It's very difficult to give children what they need on a completely vegan diet.
Mr. Poolman
Member
Honest question.
Do vegan mothers breastfeed their children?
Do vegan mothers breastfeed their children?
eot
Banned
Solution: Let children decide what they want to eat, and then be thrown in jail because kid only wants grapes and chicken nuggets and has become malnourished.
Don't be absurd, it's possible to have your beliefs and not force them on your kids. I wouldn't indoctrinate my (hypothetical) kids into my belief systems, I would let them make up their own mind.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Interestingly enough the WHO classifies obesity as malnutrition. So this could easily apply to malnutrition in other than strict vegans.
This would only be applicable in cases of obvious malnutrition. There are many healthy vegans and children of vegans.
This would only be applicable in cases of obvious malnutrition. There are many healthy vegans and children of vegans.
umop_3pisdn
Member
Kids don't develop that way, they really only start making up their own minds in that way when they're in their later teens. As children they're going to be curious about their role models, what they do and why, so you're going to model your beliefs for them no matter what (or they'll find those kinds of role models elsewhere). Your priority as a parent should be to offer them the resources you have as an individual (including your beliefs and convictions) as well as raising them to be autonomous individuals that can think for themselves. It's really not one or the other. What we all do in our teens is we sift through all or most of the beliefs we absorbed as kids, and then decide which to hold on to and which to discard. Kids don't have that capacity, so instead what we do as adults is give them everything that we have in good faith to give, and hope they're well prepared to make use of what they need in the future.
It isn't absurd. See the post above mine. Perfectly put.
Please, do some research before you speak about this topic again.
Why wouldn't they?
Human women aren't made to suffer for their milk. Their milk is produced by their own bodies specifically to be fed to their child.
Veganism is about limiting suffering by boycotting animal products that are part of the industry that causes that suffering. Human milk for human children has nothing to do with it.
eot
Banned
The supplement argument is hilarious to me. The mental gymnastic people go through to justify something they're unwilling to question are insane.
What difference does it make if my B12 was produced by bacteria in a cow's stomach, or by identical bacteria in some factory somewhere? It's less natural? Oh well, I guess meat eaters only eat natural foods then! It's all free range animals that aren't fed anti-biotics or growth horomes, no GMO crops, no pesticides, no artificial fertilizers, no synthetic caffeine etc. Good on you guys.
Come to think about it though, if breeding bacteria is unnatural then animal farming isn't natural either :S
I guess you guys only eat game and fish
There are plenty of places in the world where you simply don't get enough sun, no matter how hard you try. Where there's no enough sunlight to even stimulate production of vitamin D half the year. Gets even worse if you have a darker skin colour. So yes, plenty of people do (or should) take additional vitamin D.
What difference does it make if my B12 was produced by bacteria in a cow's stomach, or by identical bacteria in some factory somewhere? It's less natural? Oh well, I guess meat eaters only eat natural foods then! It's all free range animals that aren't fed anti-biotics or growth horomes, no GMO crops, no pesticides, no artificial fertilizers, no synthetic caffeine etc. Good on you guys.
Come to think about it though, if breeding bacteria is unnatural then animal farming isn't natural either :S
I guess you guys only eat game and fish
There are plenty of places in the world where you simply don't get enough sun, no matter how hard you try. Where there's no enough sunlight to even stimulate production of vitamin D half the year. Gets even worse if you have a darker skin colour. So yes, plenty of people do (or should) take additional vitamin D.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
...No, it does. That's why vegans are encouraged to take supplements.
Please, do some research before you speak about this topic again.
eot
Banned
You're right.
That's why no one had the idea to sell vitamin supplements before this veganism fad thing.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
outunderthestars
Banned
There are parents raising their children with horrible diets of all kinds. Why not criminalize the parents who feed their kids Mac & cheese and chicken nuggets for every meal as well?
Your argument hinges on the idea that eating a meat based diet automatically means you'll ensure you and the people you're feeding are receiving a balanced diet.
Which is not the case.
Tell me, how many vitamins and nutrients can you not get from a Vegan diet? Specifically, exactly.
Now, how many other vitamins and nutrients are there that are just as essential that /everyone/ needs to cover?
I'll wait.
The supplement argument is hilarious to me. The mental gymnastic people go through to justify something they're unwilling to question are insane.
What difference does it make if my B12 was produced by bacteria in a cow's stomach, or by identical bacteria in some factory somewhere? It's less natural? Oh well, I guess meat eaters only eat natural foods then! It's all free range animals that aren't fed anti-biotics or growth horomes, no GMO crops, no pesticides, no artificial fertilizers, no synthetic caffeine etc. Good on you guys.
Come to think about it though, if breeding bacteria is unnatural then animal farming isn't natural either :S
I guess you guys only eat game and fish
There are plenty of places in the world where you simply don't get enough sun, no matter how hard you try. Where there's no enough sunlight to even stimulate production of vitamin D half the year. Gets even worse if you have a darker skin colour. So yes, plenty of people do (or should) take additional vitamin D.
Not to mention those people probably already eat fortified foods (i.e. supplements) without even being aware is it.
The ignorance and intolerance in this thread are quite something. Should probably steer clear from threads about veganism in the future, it's always the same shit...
Gun Animal
Member
the "hot dogs and macaroni" diet that a lot of kids have would seem to be caused almost entirely by poverty rather than being deliberately enforced. It's also worth noting that junk/fast food isn't inherently lacking in nutrients (especially since most processed food is fortified), it's just very high in calories. The issue with junk food is usually that there's too much of something (suger, carbs, fat, salt) rather than too little of something.
The supplement argument is hilarious to me. The mental gymnastic people go through to justify something they're unwilling to question are insane.
What difference does it make if my B12 was produced by bacteria in a cow's stomach, or by identical bacteria in some factory somewhere? It's less natural? Oh well, I guess meat eaters only eat natural foods then! It's all free range animals that aren't fed anti-biotics or growth horomes, no GMO crops, no pesticides, no artificial fertilizers, no synthetic caffeine etc. Good on you guys.
Come to think about it though, if breeding bacteria is unnatural then animal farming isn't natural either :S
I guess you guys only eat game and fish
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility
Sanctuary
Member
Uh, no. That's not what is being said at all. Read the thread title again. In fact, they are actually proposing the opposite of what you think they are.
QFT.
Sanctuary
Member
If you're the one buying the food, I'm not sure how the kids are going to have options available. A lot of people are vegan for more than simple "I don't like the taste of meat" or "I think meat is an unhealthy choice" reasons.
Doctoglethorpe
Member
Because being an orphan is better than having a b12 deficiency.
I was replying to people in this thread, not the article or title.
Sanctuary
Member
I know, and I was replying to your comment, which was misrepresenting what people in this thread are actually saying. Reread the thread title. Again. Then read the posts that you have issues with. Or I guess, just learn what "impose" means, if you don't already know.
Unless they're infants, how are they not getting those nutrients listed? Eat two bowls of cereal. There, mission complete.
This is just dumb. So are they going to go over EVERY incident where parents injure children with a higher frequency of 4 events within 1.5 years and make them all jailable offenses?
Oh shit, kids are falling off bikes because parents didn't teach them how to ride properly. Time to remove the parent from the family and stick them in jail for a year. I'm sure that won't affect little jimmy negatively at all...
I mean, yeah, if a kid is killed or severely injured from being malnourished in any manner, there should be consequences. This just seems picky. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding this and it's the article or something.
This is just dumb. So are they going to go over EVERY incident where parents injure children with a higher frequency of 4 events within 1.5 years and make them all jailable offenses?
Oh shit, kids are falling off bikes because parents didn't teach them how to ride properly. Time to remove the parent from the family and stick them in jail for a year. I'm sure that won't affect little jimmy negatively at all...
I mean, yeah, if a kid is killed or severely injured from being malnourished in any manner, there should be consequences. This just seems picky. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding this and it's the article or something.
A B12 deficiency is nothing to sneeze at and it can lead to permanent and irreversible damage to your body. On the other hand, you just have to eat a B12 pill every two days (which even tastes pretty good and can be eaten with food so it'd be super easy to get your kid to eat them) for this to be entirely a non issue.
GoldenCrow
Member
Looking at the average UK diet of a person that doesn't care about what they eat, (or trying to lose weight) which appears to be the norm they sure as fuck aren't getting the nutrition they require. Last time I went to Italy it is seemingly going that way as well, there is so many great traditional Italian meals (nutritionally and taste) that are accidentally vegan as long as the pasta is blanco or dried so it is a shame the government is taking the stance and would probably be better placing it on junk food in general.
I have met some stupid vegans, usually they are also the no vaccine types but any vegan who takes their diet seriously will not be deficient in anything. There are also the junk food vegans which is piss poor (no different than animal based junk food) and aren't going to get what they need. Getting the required nutrition on a wholegrain, plant based diet is extremely easy, you do lose convenience but that is easy to adapt to. A lot of people say where is your B12 coming from, personally I supplement it to make sure, but guess what you should probably supplement it if you eat animal products because it is hard to get from food sources and unreliable plus you are just eating the same supliment but through an animal, same goes for vitamin D unless you live near the equator and get a good amount of sun per day. I get my blood done twice a year just to make sure the levels are good, done it way before I became plant based and my levels are currently the best they have been, albeit I have paid a lot more attention to the composition of every meal since changing than I ever did before.
I have met some stupid vegans, usually they are also the no vaccine types but any vegan who takes their diet seriously will not be deficient in anything. There are also the junk food vegans which is piss poor (no different than animal based junk food) and aren't going to get what they need. Getting the required nutrition on a wholegrain, plant based diet is extremely easy, you do lose convenience but that is easy to adapt to. A lot of people say where is your B12 coming from, personally I supplement it to make sure, but guess what you should probably supplement it if you eat animal products because it is hard to get from food sources and unreliable plus you are just eating the same supliment but through an animal, same goes for vitamin D unless you live near the equator and get a good amount of sun per day. I get my blood done twice a year just to make sure the levels are good, done it way before I became plant based and my levels are currently the best they have been, albeit I have paid a lot more attention to the composition of every meal since changing than I ever did before.
Which people are you talking about? Those I'm talking about have nothing to do with the post you just made.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
A cup of Silk soymilk has 50% of your daily Vitamin B12. I'm not a vegan, but it drives me nuts how many non-vegans claim that it is nearly impossible to get Vitamin B12 without taking a pill.
Cereals, milk, yogurts, spreads, yeast extracts - many vegan varieties fortified with B12.
Child abuse is child abuse and banning the base belief that is unrelated to the actual affects is silly. The same with harmful religions. You don't ban practicing an entire religion because some followers of it decide to follow certain harmful tenants. Parents who refuse to allow blood transfusions for their kids is an example. Arrest those parents, but good luck prosecuting with no demonstration of harm.
Polioliolio
Member
Because spaghetti and meat balls contains all the nutrients you'll ever need.
Governments need to get serous about establishing serious nutrition guidelines. A 'real' vegan diet is going to have beans, mushrooms, nuts, greens, and more, that would be far more nutritional than the junk the majority of the populations are eating because of what's on their store shelves.
Governments need to get serous about establishing serious nutrition guidelines. A 'real' vegan diet is going to have beans, mushrooms, nuts, greens, and more, that would be far more nutritional than the junk the majority of the populations are eating because of what's on their store shelves.
Alcoremortis
Member
This seems like it could get out of hand pretty quickly. Let parents raise their children how they want and only take action if they actually harm their kid.
The only difference I can see between a vegan diet for an adult and a child is that children are far pickier eaters by nature and they might not want to eat the vegan foods that provide specific essential vitamins. I know that when I was a kid, there was no force on this earth that could have gotten me to eat a mushroom, threat of malnutrition or no. Also, now.
The only difference I can see between a vegan diet for an adult and a child is that children are far pickier eaters by nature and they might not want to eat the vegan foods that provide specific essential vitamins. I know that when I was a kid, there was no force on this earth that could have gotten me to eat a mushroom, threat of malnutrition or no. Also, now.
GoldenCrow
Member
A quick tip for anyone that has children who wont eat their veg, put it in a blender then add to a sauce (or cook like normal then blend) and they never can tell the difference.
Oh yeah fortified foods are also a way to go. They are a bit less prevalent in NZ though (I was quite surprised when I visited the US two months ago and literally every vegan milk had notes saying "reinforced in X, Y, Z!", whereas it's not really the case here), and I tend to buy the cheapo stuff so I have to supplement on the side haha
I was just pointing out that B12 is important and you need to make sure you get it one way or another.
CornBurrito
Member
Do you think there's something magically different between
based on where it is derived from?
Bio-availability is a thing, but supplements can account for that.
Are you on of those people that thinks "natural is better because it is natural"?
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