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[Golden_Pigeon]

No, you're misrepresenting things with wordplay. Calling a turd chocolate doesn't change its properties. A dictatorship can call itself atheistic if it wants, but when the dictator is treated like a god, and there are rituals and "miracles" in his name, it's basically a religion.

Science and reason are neutral, the same way a hammer that could be used to bash in someone's skull is neutral. Tools can be misused. The difference with religion is that it is directly and inherently harmful, because history proves it to be the most effective method of promoting harmful and false ideas known to humanity.

Encouraging belief without evidence? Condemning rape victims to be stoned to death? You can't handwave this stuff it's right there in the text, and in the ignorance, divisiveness, and violence they spread.

The exact same thing is said about religious by religious scholar from centuries. That religion can be misused. Many religious people, myself included, would agree that religious misused could be the worst thing ever. I'll maintain that religion is and where mostly a force of good, for every inquisition, you have hundred or thousand lives at the service of other. Humans have the power to turn anything evil. The 20th century is the proof that absence of religions can be more bloody than any religious war.

Please find me "in the text" that rape victim should be stone to death. At the contrary, we have clear text about the fact that rapist should be executed and the rape victim is not to blame.

You pretend that atheism are naturally in the side of truth, honesty and proof but you are here, claiming things without any proof, being confused between sensationalist headlines about foreign country you never visited and what is actually in our religious scripture.

 

[Llyranor]

Figures that a veganism thread turned into a religious debate

 

[Pinkuss]

Why are vegans pushing their diet on their children in the first place?

You bring your child up to do what you think's right. If you believe caging, slaughtering and causing animals suffering is immoral then when why the heck would you not?

This thread looks to boil down with Vegans generally knowing what they eat, what macros etc and non Vegans telling stories of those they don't. Just like every thread.

The majority of us are healthy, the WHO promotes a Vegan diet. Punish neglectful parents sure but there isn't really a debate. (also a lot of farm animals are fed supplements to boost B12 etc so the supplement argument is crap; that and most foods are fortified, it's lunch and I've had way over 100% of my daily B12 already).

 

[Alienfan]

If only Italy could do that with religion instead

 

[Monocle]

The exact same thing is said about religious by religious scholar from centuries. That religion can be misused. Many religious people, myself included, would agree that religious misused could be the worst thing ever. I'll maintain that religion is and where mostly a force of good, for every inquisition, you have hundred or thousand lives at the service of other. Humans have the power to turn anything evil. The 20th century is the proof that absence of religions can be more bloody than any religious war.

Please find me "in the text" that rape victim should be stone to death. At the contrary, we have clear text about the fact that rapist should be executed and the rape victim is not to blame.

You pretend that atheism are naturally in the side of truth, honesty and proof but you are here, claiming things without any proof, being confused between sensationalist headlines about foreign country you never visited and what is actually in our religious scripture.

I had a response to this and your previous post (no, really), but it just struck me that we're in a thread about veganism, so I'm ending my part in the derail here.

Spoiler

I'm open to accepting theism at any time (I'm not saying this to paint myself as more reasonable than I am—I really mean it) if only someone could show how it's fully compatible with and supported by science and logic, without repeating thoroughly refuted arguments from dead philosophers. I haven't seen a single religious apologist meet those criteria, and for some time I really cared if there was a person who could present a compelling alternative to materialism, and avoid appealing to magic (like the invented category of metaphysics) or ignoring what science tells us about the world.

Believe me when I say you are deja vu incarnate. Not a single novel word to contribute on this subject. How typical.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

If only Italy could do that with religion instead

That point was repeatedly made since post #6. But anyways, i wonder how it will fly if i expressed the same view about atheism or other religion than mine.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I had a response to this and your previous post (no, really), but it just struck me that we're in a thread about veganism, so I'm ending my part in the derail here.

Believe me when I say you are deja vu incarnate. Not a single novel word to contribute on this subject. How typical.

Since i study islamic theology and translate treaty of islamic jurisprudence from classical arabic as a living, i can assure you that you don't have any religious scriptures about that, except sensationalist headlines.

Won't provide argument with fact, ending with an insult, déjà vu indeed...

 

[moggio]

Since i study islamic theology and translate treaty of islamic jurisprudence from classical arabic as a living, i can assure you that you don't have any religious scriptures about that, except sensationalist headlines.

Won't provide argument with fact, ending with an insult, déjà vu indeed...

I think you're right about the stoning. Islam is pretty pro rape AFAIK.

Well, for the men anyway LOL.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I think you're right about the stoning. Islam is pretty pro rape AFAIK.

Well, for the men anyway LOL.

Actually, by the time of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ a women was raped and the rapist was executed.

https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/12/30/islam-on-rape/

But i guess bigotry and prejudice is always funnier than actual knowledge. So don't bother reading, stay true to yourself.

 

[moggio]

Actually, by the time of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ a women was raped and the rapist was executed.

https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/12/30/islam-on-rape/

But i guess bigotry and prejudice is always funnier than actual knowledge. So don't bother reading, stay true to yourself.

discover-the-truth.com

lol

 

[Zakalwe]

Um no it isn't. You don't have belief in not believing, you just don't believe.

Of course it is. Atheism isn't simply the absence of faith. You're not default Atheist before you decide on a religion. It's a choice to take on the label if it aligns with your views, and these things are taught and learnt.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

discover-the-truth.com

lol

It give the reference from the books of hadiths. You can check it by yourself if you believe the website is lying.

 

[Dusk Soldier]

Eh more nutritional education instead would probably be better.
That said I really dislike parents that don't give their children the choice. My mother is vegetarian but she never denied us meat. I tried it out for a couple years during my teens and decided it wasn't for me.
Same with my sister and her kids, it's their choice to be vegan or not 1 of them decided to be vegan the other was for some time.

Veganism is more on the level of a religion than a choice. You can't really be a vegan and live with a non vegan.

I mean you can follow the diet, but you wouldn't be a real vegan.

 

[collige]

Of course it is. Atheism isn't simply the absence of faith. You're not default Atheist before you decide on a religion. It's a choice to take on the label if it aligns with your views, and these things are taught and learnt.

That's exactly what it is lol. A newborn baby baby has no concept of what a god is and thus doesn't believe in their existence. Hence, atheist.

 

[Zakalwe]

Why are vegans pushing their diet on their children in the first place?

Do you understand how parenting works?

Parents make choices for their children constantly. If you feed you're children meat, you're denying their choice not to just as much as the opposite.

Children don't get to make choices like this. If they did they'd probably be eating sweets and junk food far too often.

As long as you're not extremist with your views, as long as you allow your children room to develop their own mind and keep them healthy, there's nothing wrong with teaching them about your chosen religion or ethical viewpoint.

I know plenty of people who were raised in religious environments who are now either Atheist, Agnosticist, or chose another religion entirely, as I'm sure the majority of people here do too.

People have such an aggressive misunderstanding of the majority of religious people, of the majority of Vegans, of the majority of people who belong to lifestyles outside of the norm. The majority in almost every case is as far from the extreme as the norm is.

That's exactly what it is lol. A newborn baby baby has no concept of what a god is and thus doesn't believe in their existence. Hence, atheist.

You miss the point. Being an Atheist is a decision you make once you /discover/ your absence of faith and assign it meaning. Before you do that, the absence of faith is simply there because you haven't learnt enough about the concept for it to be a part of your make-up.

Atheism is as much as a rejection of faith as it is the absence of. You cannot assign any kind of label of belief system to a child who cannot comprehend these things.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Do you understand how parenting works?

Parents make choices for their children constantly. If you feed you're children meat, you're denying their choice not to just as much as the opposite.

Children don't get to make choices like this. If they did they'd probably be eating sweets and junk food far too often.

As long as you're not extremist with your views, as long as you allow your children room to develop their own mind and keep them healthy, there's nothing wrong with teaching them about your chosen religion or ethical viewpoint.

I know plenty of people who were raised in religious environments who are now either Atheist, Agnosticist, or chose another religion entirely, as I'm sure the majority of people here do too.

People have such an aggressive misunderstanding of the majority of religious people, of the majority of Vegans, of the majority of people who belong to lifestyles outside of the norm. The majority in almost every case is as far from the extreme as the norm is.

 

[moggio]

Veganism is more on the level of a religion than a choice.

No necessarily.

You can't really be a vegan and live with a non vegan.

Nonsense.

I mean you can follow the diet, but you wouldn't be a real vegan.

Rubbish.

 

[Zakalwe]

Veganism is more on the level of a religion than a choice. You can't really be a vegan and live with a non vegan.

I mean you can follow the diet, but you wouldn't be a real vegan.

A "real" Vegan. You mean an extremist Vegan with no flex for reality?

People with conflicting views can live together you know, it doesn't invalidate their belief system to do so.

All of this is a process, not simply absolutes with a binary switch.

 

[collige]

You miss the point. Being an Atheist is a decision you make once you /discover/ your absence of faith and assign it meaning. Before you do that, the absence of faith is simply there because you haven't learnt enough about the concept for it to be a part of your make-up.

Atheism is as much as a rejection of faith as it is the absence of. You cannot assign any kind of label of belief system to a child who cannot comprehend these things.

Not believing in something is not a belief system. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism

Weak/implicit atheism is still atheism

 

[Metrotab]

Since when is a "religious lifestyle" out of the norm? You can see religious lifestyles all around the world. You can also see many of the negative effects they tend to have, which those mean atheists always have to point out.

 

[Protome]

The sensible option is clearly punish parents who neglect their kids enough to cause malnutrition, regardless of what diet they are doing it through. And/Or fund classes teaching would be parents what needs to go into a kids diet,sup sonny regular, vegan and vegetarian options.

Banning all parents from raising their kids some way because of some bad parenting is insane.

 

[Zakalwe]

Not believing in something is not a belief system. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism

Weak/implicit atheism is still atheism

Nothing in your link goes against what I wrote.

We're not born in a default atheist state. We're born in a state of utter incomprehension and as we develop we assign value and meaning.

The absence of faith in a baby is not an atheist position, it's the absence of understanding in general.

You cannot be an atheist if you have no comprehension of faith and religion, you become an atheist when you develop the absence of faith as a reaction to knowledge and understanding you've gained about faith.

 

[Protome]

Nothing in your link goes against what I wrote.

We're not born in a default atheist state. We're born in a state of utter incomprehension and as we develop we assign value and meaning.

The absence of faith in a baby is not an atheist position, it's the absence of understanding in general.

You cannot be an atheist if you have no comprehension of faith and religion, you become an atheist when you develop the absence of faith as a reaction to knowledge and understanding you've gained about faith.

His link actually straight up says the opposite of what you just wrote.

Implicit "negative" / "weak" / "soft" atheists include agnostics (and infants or babies) who do not believe or do not know that a deity or deities exist and who have not explicitly rejected or eschewed such a belief.

Being aware of religion has nothing to do with Atheism.

 

[moggio]

Nothing in your link goes against what I wrote.

We're not born in a default atheist state. We're born in a state of utter incomprehension and as we develop we assign value and meaning.

The absence of faith in a baby is not an atheist position, it's the absence of understanding in general.

You cannot be an atheist if you have no comprehension of faith and religion, you become an atheist when you develop the absence of faith as a reaction to knowledge and understanding you've gained about faith.

Atheism isn't an absence of faith, it's a lack of belief in god(s).

 

[Zakalwe]

His link actually straight up says the opposite of what you just wrote.

Being aware of religion has nothing to do with Atheism.

I disagree. Bear in mind the linked material is a definition coined by a Philosopher, it's not an absolute fact. It's one way to reason it.

And I disagree with his reasoning entirely.

If we tallied all the Atheist people in the world, it would be utterly useless to count the babies and children who cannot comprehend the idea of faith.

Atheism cannot exist without faith, without faith there would be nothing to be absent.

It is the lack of faith and/or the rejection of. Therefore it stands to reason that to be an atheist in a meaningful way, you need to understand that faith exists and know that you do not have a belief in it or that you outright reject it.

Atheism isn't an absence of faith, it's a lack of belief in god(s).

Semantics.

 

[Dusk Soldier]

A "real" Vegan. You mean an extremist Vegan with no flex for reality?

People with conflicting views can live together you know, it doesn't invalidate their belief system to do so.

All of this is a process, not simply absolutes with a binary switch.

Let's say, just throwing out an analogy here. Let's that you believe that murder is wrong.

I mean you might be perfectly ok with murder, I don't want to assume anything, but for the sake of this analogy let's pretend that your not. You believe that all murderers deserve to be in jail.

Knowing all that, could you live with a serial killer? Like if your significant other when out say once a month to chop someone up, would you be ok with that? Like, as long as they didn't expect you to join in and start killing people too. Could you live like that?

Because that's what it's like to be a vegan, living with a non vegan.

 

[Derwind]

How did veganism turn into a debate about religion? Some serious hijacking is happening.

Also, just to add, it seems the philosophical definition of Atheism is being debated in the same area as real world Atheism.

You are technically born without a belief in theism or gods but in actuality you don't have the understanding or awareness to make the distinction.

It falls in the same vein as religions ascribing a religion to their newborn. It's all just projecting your own feelings onto something or someone.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

One can have a non-expansionist ethics.
Like having a personal code and accept that it would be irrelevant to apply it on person who don't believe in it.
Furthermore, you can be vegan and without believing that killing an animal is murder.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

How did veganism turn into a debate about religion? Some serious hijacking is happening.

Also, just to add, it seems the philosophical definition of Atheism is being debated in the same area as real world Atheism.

You are technically born without a belief in theism or gods but in actuality you don't have the understanding or awareness to make the distinction.

It falls in the same vein as religions ascribing a religion to their newborn. It's all just projecting your own feelings onto something or someone.

I think every thread about parents something something bad influence over children will automatically turn somewhat about religion.

 

[Zakalwe]

Let's say, just throwing out an analogy here. Let's that you believe that murder is wrong.

I mean you might be perfectly ok with murder, I don't want to assume anything, but for the sake of this analogy let's pretend that your not. You believe that all murderers deserve to be in jail.

Knowing all that, could you live with a serial killer? Like if your significant other when out say once a month to chop someone up, would you be ok with that? Like, as long as they didn't expect you to join in and start killing people too. Could you live like that?

Because that's what it's like to be a vegan, living with a non vegan.

I'm vegan, and I live with non-vegans, and even if I weren't I could tell you your analogy is absurd.

Also, just to add, it seems the philosophical definition of Atheism is being debated in the same area as real world Atheism.

You are technically born without a belief in theism or gods but in actuality you don't have the understanding or awareness to make the distinction.

It falls in the same vein as religions ascribing a religion to their newborn. It's all just projecting your own feelings onto something or someone.

Bingo.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

I like the idea of punishing parents for feeding thier children an unhealthy diet that causes health problems.

But why not focus on obesity rather than vegans?

 

[spiderman123]

Goddamn Hippies....don't jail them. There is only one way to deal with a hippie.

Cartman

 

[GoldenCrow]

for starter you'll lack iron, zinc, proteins, b12 and calcium..
and some of those are REALLY needed during the growth period..
so if you want to make your children grow up as vegan, the least you can do as a parent is to let a REPUTABLE medic produce a balanced diet for a growing kid while taking into full consideration vegan eating habit//restrictions..

Not really. Majority of people eat what they do due to cultural tradition regardless of health and often unaware of the health implications to what they eat, many western traditional diets are incredibly imbalanced but problems don't reveal until old age. Having an understanding of nutrition is very modern and plant based diets are ancient and prevalent throughout many societies and often considered to be the healthiest. If you come from a country that is meat and two veg or something similar and switch to a plant based diet but hold onto cultural understanding rather than expanding your diet then yes you are going to be lacking, simply because many of the diets from cultures who are heavy consumers of animal products are often lacking in a variety of veg, fruit, grains, pulses, nuts and seeds even though native to the regions. By opening up what you can eat rather than focusing on what you can't then there should be zero problem getting a balanced diet as iron, zinc, proteins and calcium are abundant in plant based foods (how do you think the animals you are eating that are herbivores get it). B12 is a bit more complicated but if you are eating fermented foods then you will be around the same levels as a typical meat eater who doesn't supplement (most people are deficient in B12) it might even be a bit better as you generally eat fermented foods as is without additional cooking which reduces the amount of B12 and there are very few animal products that haven't been processed through heat to make them safer and more edible.

 

[Senoculum]

I think it's a good to law to have, but shouldn't be generally enforced. It should be like speeding, where if done safely it doesn't require the hammer of justice. But if a parent is to fail at delivering proper nutrition to their child (which can have long term effects on their brains, their heart, liver, and bones), then they'll be facing another checkbox of their list of fuckups. Seriously, fuck those parents.

 

[Moff]

Atheism cannot exist without faith, without faith there would be nothing to be absent.

so what do you call someone who has never heard of religion?

I am impressed, though by the mental gynmastics you are pulling off just so you can say atheists believe in something as well and are just as flawed as believers. It's like you realize that just "believing" is really not that smart and you refuse to accept that others do not think it's a good idea that living your whole life based on just a "belief" is not a good thing to do. so what you do is obvious, they must believe something, too!

but no, that is absolutely not the case. an atheist is someone who chooses to not believe. As someone who has never believed in any kind of religion I can guarantee you that is the case. Atheism is the lack of belief. it is NOT the belief in no religion/gods. it's a fundamentally different mindset from yours.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

so what do you call someone who has never heard of religion?

I am impressed, though by the mental gynmastics you are pulling off just so you can say atheists believe in something as well and are just as flawed as believers. It's like you realize that just "believing" is really not that smart and you refuse to accept that others do not think it's a good idea that living your whole life based on just a "belief" is not a good thing to do. so what you do is obvious, they must believe something, too!

but no, that is absolutely not the case. an atheist is someone who chooses to not believe. As someone who has never believed in any kind of religion I can guarantee you that is the case. Atheism is the lack of belief. it is NOT the belief in no religion/gods. it's a fundamentally different mindset from yours.

I think that many atheist don't understand that for any so called believer they are not believing but following the truth and choosing to not believe. By definition, if you consider that you're belief is "just a belief" you are not serious about this belief.

It's just that somewhat many people are certain that there is something empirical or scientific about atheism.
There is an excellent and hilarious book about that, written by a agnostic mathematician: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465019374/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[Derwind]

so what do you call someone who has never heard of religion?

I am impressed, though by the mental gynmastics you are pulling off just so you can say atheists believe in something as well and are just as flawed as believers. It's like you realize that just "believing" is really not that smart and you refuse to accept that others do not think it's a good idea that living your whole life based on just a "belief" is not a good thing to do. so what you do is obvious, they must believe something, too!

but no, that is absolutely not the case. an atheist is someone who chooses to not believe. As someone who has never believed in any kind of religion I can guarantee you that is the case. Atheism is the lack of belief. it is NOT the belief in no religion/gods. it's a fundamentally different mindset from yours.

If we're a being technical, atheism is the lack of belief in the theistic argument. (Whether that's from total ignorance or a choice)

"Lack of belief" alone doesn't actually tell you anything.

 

[Theonik]

Throw them in the gullag I say.

 

[moggio]

I think that many atheist don't understand that for any so called believer they are not believing but following the truth and choosing to not believe.

It's just that somewhat many people are certain that there is something empirical or scientific about atheism.
There is an excellent and hilarious book about that, written by a agnostic mathematician: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465019374/?tag=neogaf0e-20

David Berlinski is hilarious but not for the reasons you think.

This is a man who doesn't believe in the Theory of Evolution LOL. Comedy gold.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

David Berlinski is hilarious but not for the reasons you think.

This is a man who doesn't believe in the Theory of Evolution LOL.

"Berlinski is a scathing critic of evolution, yet, "Unlike his colleagues at the Discovery Institute,...[he] refuses to theorize about the origin of life."[1]" (wiki)

It's by debate and critics that science actually advance. What we call today theory of evolution is very different than what Darwin viewed and it will certainly be very different in 50 years.

I recommend you a good book: The structure of scientific revolution by Karl Popper.

 

[moggio]

"Berlinski is a scathing critic of evolution, yet, "Unlike his colleagues at the Discovery Institute,...[he] refuses to theorize about the origin of life."[1]" (wiki)

The Discovery Institute LOL.

Told you he was hilarious.

 

[Dougald]

Let's say, just throwing out an analogy here. Let's that you believe that murder is wrong.

I mean you might be perfectly ok with murder, I don't want to assume anything, but for the sake of this analogy let's pretend that your not. You believe that all murderers deserve to be in jail.

Knowing all that, could you live with a serial killer? Like if your significant other when out say once a month to chop someone up, would you be ok with that? Like, as long as they didn't expect you to join in and start killing people too. Could you live like that?

Because that's what it's like to be a vegan, living with a non vegan.

Damn, are you saying that whenever I visit my vegan sister on my motorcycle she looks at me like I've just murdered someone and turned up at her house wearing their skin? She's remarkably calm about the whole thing if so, never mentioned it

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

The Discovery Institute LOL.

Told you he was hilarious.

I wonder how troll like you can survive that long on Neogaf. That is amazing.

 

[moggio]

I wonder how troll like you can survive that long on Neogaf. That is amazing.

I'm not trolling, just find it amusing you think David Berlinski and The Discovery Institute are sources worth quoting.

Also this is a thread about Veganism and Italy anyway, so please try to keep it on topic.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I'm not trolling, just find it amusing you think David Berlinski and The Discovery Institute are sources worth quoting.

Also this is a thread about Veganism and Italy anyway, so please try to keep it on topic.

Worth quoting about scientism pretension to the absolute truth, yes.
The work i mentioned is a work of philosophy of science, a subject matter you probably never heard of.

Pretty funny from somebody who came trolling about how Islam allowed rape.
I'll mute you from now on.

 

[Derwind]

I'm not trolling, just find it amusing you think David Berlinski and The Discovery Institute are sources worth quoting.

Also this is a thread about Veganism and Italy anyway, so please try to keep it on topic.

I think the issue is your not going out of your way to explain yourself, it's getting into 'mocking' territory.

Also you're right, we lost the topic a long time ago, whether veganism is a crime. I say no.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Whoa..... this is really intrusive is it not?

 

[Zakalwe]

so what do you call someone who has never heard of religion?

I don't know, what do you call them?

It can't be atheist because atheism can't exist without religion as there is nothing to be absent.

I am impressed, though by the mental gynmastics you are pulling off just so you can say atheists believe in something as well and are just as flawed as believers. It's like you realize that just "believing" is really not that smart and you refuse to accept that others do not think it's a good idea that living your whole life based on just a "belief" is not a good thing to do. so what you do is obvious, they must believe something, too!

I didn't ever suggest believing in something isn't smart. intelligence and faith are not mutually exclusive, and inferring that they are is a step toward meme level atheism.

but no, that is absolutely not the case. an atheist is someone who chooses to not believe. As someone who has never believed in any kind of religion I can guarantee you that is the case. Atheism is the lack of belief. it is NOT the belief in no religion/gods. it's a fundamentally different mindset from yours.

Firstly, your anecdote is not guarantee of anything here.

Secondly, I'm not religious, I'm agnostic if anything.

Thirdly, if you bring up your children to be atheist then you're doing the exact same thing as bringing them up to be religious: you're enforcing your ideals/beliefs/choices on your children.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

That's exactly what it is lol. A newborn baby baby has no concept of what a god is and thus doesn't believe in their existence. Hence, atheist.

A baby isn't born an Atheist because it has no concept of God, so it has no ability to decide either way if it believes in it or not.

You're not an Atheist simply because you're ignorant of the concept of a God. You have to understand the concept of God before rejecting your faith in it, which is the meaning of Atheism.

 

[Zakalwe]

A baby isn't born an Atheist because it has no concept of God, so it has no ability to decide either way if it believes in it or not.

You're not an Atheist simply because you're ignorant of the concept of a God. You have to understand the concept of God before rejecting your faith in it, which is the meaning of Atheism.

Bingo.