CornBurrito
Member
Can you quantify how much better? With an actual study?
Or is this handwavey "pills aren't natural ergo bad" bullcrap? Speaking of totally natural, totally natural domesticated cattle derived meat. lol.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Italy proposal to jail vegans who impose diet on children
- Thread starter Dalek
- Start date
- Status
Can you quantify how much better? With an actual study?
Or is this handwavey "pills aren't natural ergo bad" bullcrap? Speaking of totally natural, totally natural domesticated cattle derived meat. lol.
Doesn't livestock tend to be fed supplements anyway?
Um no it isn't. You don't have belief in not believing, you just don't believe.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
According to some in Italy I've spoken to, this is basically just some stuffy old politicians making a fuss that is unlikely to go anywhere. Existing negligence laws are fine and most people see that; there is simply a vocal anti-vegetarian and anti-vegan minority using isolated cases to spread fear.
Yes. B12 is mainly produced by bacteria in soil. Since cattle rarely eat grass anymore, they're not getting much "natural" B12 at all. Taking the supplement yourself, instead of eating an animal that was fed it, doesn't seem unreasonable.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
And it's a personal belief since you have no way to prove that God don't exist. The only "non-belief" is agnosticism. Atheism is not the absence of belief, it's the assertion that God don't exist. Imposing it on a kid is as bad as imposing a specific religion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzSMC5rWvos
Anyway, most of the parents beliefs are not transmitted through imposition but by influence. It's the old dream of every totalitarian state to be able to cut off this influence and impose it's own.
I was raised by a vegetarians parents, and i was disgusted by meat all my youth. But my parents wouldn't even care if i was eating meat.
Atheism literally means not believing. Agnoticism is saying "I do not know". You can be an agnostic atheist (most are) and an agnostic theist (that's more rare).
You can't impose "nothing" on a child.
BrokenIcarus
Member
This is such bullshit, I really hope this doesn't pass. If their kids are severly malnourished, sure, but to just outright force children into a diet that includes animal products is just a horrible thing to do if you ask me.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
No, if you deconstruct the word is "absence of the Divine". It's negative assertion on God existence. So it's centered on God or the Divine and you can totally impose that on people, look at North Korea or the history of USSR.
Agnosticism is the affirmation that one don't know what to think about the ultimate knowledge about the Truth, the Gnosis.
Therefore, it don't produce any positive or negative assertion about the existence of God.
It's like saying that apoliticism is not a political stance.
Agnoticism is not a "non-belief" it's a "non-knowledge". Atheism is not believing no matter which way you want to phrase it.
Your comparaison with North Korea or the USSR is irrelevant unless you believe random atheist people persecute their children for being religious.
Atheism isn't a religion without a god, it's not a religion. No doctrine, no value system, etc. there is literally nothing to impose or pass on. You don't wake up and tell yourself "what a good day to not believe in god ! can't wait to not pray just like my church of nothing taught me !".
Would you say your non-belief of ghosts has been imposed on you by your parents too ?
There are different ideas about the meanings of the words. Some go by the idea that atheism and theism exist on a different axis from agnosticism and gnosticism. That atheism/theism pertains to belief, whilc agnosticism/gnosticism pertains to knowledge. They are therefore combinable.
I'm an agnostic atheist. Meaning I don't believe god exists, but don't claim to know for certain. It's the most descriptive term.
Pankratous
Member
That's good - cut back a little on child abuse.
GoldenCrow
Member
Well a belief in a god isn't a prerequisite for a religion. Take certain sects of Buddhism and Hinduism that are atheist, NK and USSR essentially replaced the god with national leaders. By default atheism isn't a religion just as deism isn't and agnosticism isn't, nor is it a belief system as it is simple a stance on a topic. Atheists like everybody will have what they believe but unless a member of a atheist religion then their beliefs will not be defined by a doctrine.
Never said it was, actually it's kind of the point that I was making. You can have religions without god(s), that's not the case for atheism (obviously there are religious atheists but in the West atheism is most of the time associated with irreligion, and in those cases "atheism" isn't the religion).
Alcoremortis
Member
That wouldn't have done the trick for kid me. The only sauce I'd tolerate was spaghetti sauce... and I was also wickedly good at picking mushrooms out of anything (including spaghetti sauce), no matter how finely they were shredded. I would rather have spent an hour carefully locating every mushroom bit and removing it a piece at a time than to accidentally eat even a fragment of mushroom.
I know I'm not the only one. I'm pretty sure every kid has developed a similar talent for whatever food they can't stand.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
A lot of atheist are quite vocal about the benefit of being atheist:
Non-believing in ghosts =/ atheism. Atheism is a special kind of stance against a special kind of religion. Some argue that some trend of buddhism is atheist.
The example of URSS or North Korea was in response of the comment about "atheism cannot be forced upon people". The spanish inquisition was a walk in the park in comparing to the chinese cultural revolution.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I don't think you know what you're talking about.
Also, i want to note that Italy has a lot of widespread quackery, mainly homeopathy, and i've yet to meet a vegan or vegetarian that wasn't knee deep in homeopathy.
Scientific-based, supplement-sound veganism is nothing to be afraid of.
However, at least here, vegans tend to be also the ones looking down on any supplement, with claims like "Mother Nature takes care of us if we take care of her" and all that jazz.
The worst part is that it's diffused all the way up to state-backed MDs.
My own mother (with a degree with honors in Biology, no less) has been trying to spin that shit for the last ten years.
Veganism is actually just a small part of the issue in Italy with "Natural-sounding" bullshit, but it's a good marker. Generally means they're knee deep in all of it.
Scientific-based, supplement-sound veganism is nothing to be afraid of.
However, at least here, vegans tend to be also the ones looking down on any supplement, with claims like "Mother Nature takes care of us if we take care of her" and all that jazz.
The worst part is that it's diffused all the way up to state-backed MDs.
My own mother (with a degree with honors in Biology, no less) has been trying to spin that shit for the last ten years.
Veganism is actually just a small part of the issue in Italy with "Natural-sounding" bullshit, but it's a good marker. Generally means they're knee deep in all of it.
Thinking atheism has benefits is in no way similar to everything a religion entails.
I'm not saying atheism = not believing in ghosts. I'm saying not believing in god(s),just like not believing in ghosts, isn't something that you can impose on your children, because there is literally nothing to impose.
My parents never sat me down to tell me there is no god or that I wasn't allowed to pray or whatever you like to imagine. I don't talk about atheism with other people because there is nothing to talk about. We just live our lives like anyone else except religion/faith just aren't a part of it at all on a personal level.
I already commented on buddhism in an earlier post. Buddhism is the religion here, not atheism.
Anyway I'm done with this, think what you want.
mocolostrocolos
Member
Great news.
Fallout-NL
Member
Very good point.
I guess you've never been to Italy.
This post is almost as wrong as the one saying that the new Total Recall is better than the original.
witchedwiz
Member
i'm italian..
allow me to say, that LOT of people in italy have at best a rudimentary idea of macros needed, most will just say "i eat some pasta, some meat/fish, some fruits and i'm good"..
going vegan entails a required knowledge of the macro strictly needed to go on, while if you want to "grow up" as a vegan you have to tailor your eating habits around what it lacks..
for starter you'll lack iron, zinc, proteins, b12 and calcium..
and some of those are REALLY needed during the growth period..
so if you want to make your children grow up as vegan, the least you can do as a parent is to let a REPUTABLE medic produce a balanced diet for a growing kid while taking into full consideration vegan eating habit//restrictions..
most of times, this is not what happens..
and if you, hypothetic human being, became a vegan on your own just by word of mouth and generic internet//word of mouth conventions, most likely
1) you'll be unable to provide a balanced vegan plan for your growing kids
2) you'll most likely NOT go to a nutrition specialist to help you set up your kids nutrition plan..
so, honestly, i think this is a step in the right direction..
let the kids have a "generic" eating habit and then when they are grown, possibly with a balanced nutrition that comes easier if you don't impose any nutrient restriction source, allow them to choose what they want to eat...
granted, kids grow via emulation as well in the early stages, so some kids might try to "eat the same as their parent" out of sheer will, but even that is a situation that needs to be monitored..
jail might be excessive, but monitoring the kids of vegan people to ensure that their nutrition plan is at least "acceptable" would be something that nobody should disagree upon..
all of this is imho, clearly
p.s. i think obese kids should be monitored as well clearly, but let's take a step at a time..
p.s.2 now if they would send to jail (again) people for accounting/financial fraud, that would be higher on my "go-to-jail" list... :L
allow me to say, that LOT of people in italy have at best a rudimentary idea of macros needed, most will just say "i eat some pasta, some meat/fish, some fruits and i'm good"..
going vegan entails a required knowledge of the macro strictly needed to go on, while if you want to "grow up" as a vegan you have to tailor your eating habits around what it lacks..
for starter you'll lack iron, zinc, proteins, b12 and calcium..
and some of those are REALLY needed during the growth period..
so if you want to make your children grow up as vegan, the least you can do as a parent is to let a REPUTABLE medic produce a balanced diet for a growing kid while taking into full consideration vegan eating habit//restrictions..
most of times, this is not what happens..
and if you, hypothetic human being, became a vegan on your own just by word of mouth and generic internet//word of mouth conventions, most likely
1) you'll be unable to provide a balanced vegan plan for your growing kids
2) you'll most likely NOT go to a nutrition specialist to help you set up your kids nutrition plan..
so, honestly, i think this is a step in the right direction..
let the kids have a "generic" eating habit and then when they are grown, possibly with a balanced nutrition that comes easier if you don't impose any nutrient restriction source, allow them to choose what they want to eat...
granted, kids grow via emulation as well in the early stages, so some kids might try to "eat the same as their parent" out of sheer will, but even that is a situation that needs to be monitored..
jail might be excessive, but monitoring the kids of vegan people to ensure that their nutrition plan is at least "acceptable" would be something that nobody should disagree upon..
all of this is imho, clearly
p.s. i think obese kids should be monitored as well clearly, but let's take a step at a time..
p.s.2 now if they would send to jail (again) people for accounting/financial fraud, that would be higher on my "go-to-jail" list... :L
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
It's not because you're parent didn't did it that it cannot happen.
Entire state did that exactly same thing to millions of people.
A lot of religious people don't get mad against their children if they choose to not believe.
There is no one type of atheist, you have extreme atheist who believe that religion must be destroyed and is a kind of madness Making the same statement about a particular religion or atheism will be perceived as religious bigotry or fundamentalism. Why the double standard ?
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Or as this argumentation
That's anti-theism, not atheism. The two are distinct.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Well USSR defined itself as an atheist state. As for as i know, no atheist state were actually tolerant in history.
But it could be argued that they were all marxist, so it's a little biased.
Moff
Member
you have very weird idea of atheists. do you really think people like that exist in the western world?
most atheists simply ignore anything religious, they don't hate religion actively, most days they don't even think about it.
that's funadmentally different from religious parents who tell their children there is a wizard in the skies and they need to pray to him every day to reach a made up paradise after their deaths.
Yes, and they had anti-theist policies. So anti-theism is what you're talking about.
Also, several Western European countries have been thoroughly secularised.
XOMTOR
Member
They're probably feeding their cats and dogs a vegan diet. Actually, there are people who do this and they should be prosecuted.
Is parenting a mystery to you?
It's definitely terrible for cats but dogs aren't purely carnivorous so if you were very careful about what you feed them you could get away with feeding them a vegan diet. Sounds like too much work though haha
n00bsauce87
Member
Obese children aren't malnourished. That is a grade A fallacy argument if I ever saw one. Let's address the ones who are dying and then the overweight kids next. At least they have a chance at a better lifestyle since they are at least alive.
One of the world's oldest dogs lived on a vegan diet their whole life. Just do an internet search for 'bramble oldest dog'.
Also by my dogs own choosing they quite often got into my vegetable garden and raided it.
There's also a range of commercial dog food in Australia, which is vegan: http://www.biopetonline.com.au/catalog/vegan
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I am an ex-atheist, i never said that most or even a significant number of atheist are like that. But they do exist. Hitchen or Dawkin are good example.
Nobody believe that there is a wizard in the sky anyway. This is the belief in a demiurge.
Monocle
Member
You're misinformed. These so-called "atheist states" were built on cults of personality that elevated their leaders to divine status. They were religious states in everything but name, using the existing social apparatus of suppressed religions to promote state-approved surrogate ideologies.
Dumping responsibility for the atrocities of "atheist states" into the laps of actual atheists is pretty much the height of intellectual dishonesty. A favorite tactic of religious apologists, naturally. You'll find that many defenders of religion use this kind of underhanded tactic to trick uninformed people. It's a gross practice that's rarely mirrored by secular thinkers for some reason. (Spoiler: secular thinkers don't have to lie and manipulate, because the truth is on their side. Reason and science bear out their claims.)
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I am not misinformed, it's how they called themselves and some still do.
You can hate it and i think the vast majority of atheist hate them but it won't change the fact that horrible thing were and is made in the name of atheism or progress or science.
It's like me saying that everything bad made in the name of religion is not from actually religious people or religion.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Where i did such a thing? I hate it when it's made against religious people, so i won't make it against atheists. Anyway nice ad hominem attack.
Pure atheist mythology. Science is by nature unable to speak about religion since it's not concerned about metaphysics. Science speaking about God is like Chemistry speaking about Literature. If it was the case, all scientist would be atheist and most of them are not.
I won't insult your intelligence by making a list of secular thinker who are perfectly able to lie and deceit. You cannot pretend that atheism cannot be turned in some kind of fundamentalist religion if you believe that atheist are morally superior and Truth is naturally on their side.
Monocle
Member
No, you're misrepresenting things with wordplay. Calling a turd chocolate doesn't change its properties. A dictatorship can call itself atheistic if it wants, but when the dictator is treated like a god, and there are rituals and "miracles" in his name, it's basically a religion.
Science and reason are neutral, the same way a hammer that could be used to bash in someone's skull is neutral. Tools can be misused. The difference with religion is that it is directly and inherently harmful, because history proves it to be the most effective method of promoting harmful and false ideas known to humanity.
Encouraging belief without evidence? Condemning rape victims to be stoned to death? You can't handwave this stuff when it's right there in the texts. Ignorance, divisiveness, and violence are the natural consequences when people uncritically accept the divine origins of holy books.
XOMTOR
Member
Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Vegan-ism (zero animal protein) is a choice made for impractical reasons and is downright silly for either cats or dogs. While there may be cases where dogs can be fed a purely vegan diet, it's difficult to do properly and certainly wouldn't be the diet of choice for many top breeders and certainly not for working animals. There are ethical ways to feed your pets a meat based diet without imposing vegan-ism on them; keep that diet to yourself.
entremet
Member
Felines are more carnivorous than the dog family, both in hunter instinct and nutritional needs.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked