I read the full quote and I'm coming 23 pages in.
Still complete horeshit. That 10 second slot in a 90 game reel is the difference between a consumer Googling about the game being shown or not Googling about it. Being noticed and visibility is key.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Jim Ryan on Indies 'It was just good to talk about in 2013. It is less relevant now'
- Thread starter Gowans
- Start date
Still complete horeshit. That 10 second slot in a 90 game reel is the difference between a consumer Googling about the game being shown or not Googling about it. Being noticed and visibility is key.
Interfectum
Member
There are plenty of ways to get visibility besides being shoved in the middle of an E3 conference. It's not that big of a deal.
Yeah, there's plenty of other ways other than the largest gaming conference in the world which is being watched by many millions.
It's like saying I'll advertise on late-night TV rather than the prime-time, no big deal.
Yeah Spiderman game really needs that spot, it would go under the radar otherwise!
Leaving indies out altogether make it seem that Sony considers those as second class games. It's wrong message to send about indies.
Interfectum
Member
Sony is showing off why you should stick with PS4. An exclusive Spiderman game is a huge get for them and they will continue to show it off as much as they can.
Primethius
Banned
Edit: Not worth it. Threads a mess.
Quote seems fine to me. Conference was very brief compared to previous years and Sony did not show major upcoming titles like Last of Us part II, Ni No Kuni (which was on E3 floor), GT Sport (also on E3) and others...
People going batshit crazy about Jim on this occasion are kinda overreacting.
People going batshit crazy about Jim on this occasion are kinda overreacting.
I was also disappointed to see no indies on stage at Sonys E3 but its no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater (again esp if you read the entire quote in the article)
PSX is another conference where they will have indies on the main stage and it's geared pretty well to the Playstation audience wanting that sort of experience.
If indies don't appear on any stage for another year then maybe it's time to lose your shit.
PSX is another conference where they will have indies on the main stage and it's geared pretty well to the Playstation audience wanting that sort of experience.
If indies don't appear on any stage for another year then maybe it's time to lose your shit.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
its a rather big deal and a big honour for the indies who create these on shoestring budget, and have next to no money for advertising compared to an AAA studio
wesleyshark
Banned
I like the reels showing a bunch of games I probably wouldn't have heard of otherwise.
Banjo-Kazooie
Member
Im sure you speak for every indie dev that is fighting for visibility. Hell, an actual indie dev said this a couple pages ago but I guess we just going to ignore that. Being thrown into sizzle reels have helped previously unknown games like Cuphead get actual funding and marketing support, so I don't know why it's such a foreign concept that it's beneficial to indie devs to have their games shown for 10 seconds in a sizzle reel on one of the biggest stages, as opposed to not shown at all
RazielCuts
Member
Ways to piss off GAF -
- Fuck old games.
- Fuck indies.
Ha, the actual extended quote isn't that bad (even though I do Google the odd clips I see in that 10 second window I get his point).
I think it's the name dating of 2014 he considers when indies were relevant to show. Just makes it seems like 'yeah, they were good to showcase back then because we didn't have the AAA, now that we do we don't need them on stage.' Even though he's not explicitly saying that, it could be read like that.
- Fuck old games.
- Fuck indies.
Ha, the actual extended quote isn't that bad (even though I do Google the odd clips I see in that 10 second window I get his point).
I think it's the name dating of 2014 he considers when indies were relevant to show. Just makes it seems like 'yeah, they were good to showcase back then because we didn't have the AAA, now that we do we don't need them on stage.' Even though he's not explicitly saying that, it could be read like that.
Sony has 3-4 major conferences a year, and they do a lot of indie promotion on YouTube, the PlayStation Blog, and the PS Store.
I don't really think this is a big issue. It's always nice when Indies get some spotlight, but it doesn't look like Sony is suddenly gearing down indie support and going AAA only.
I don't really think this is a big issue. It's always nice when Indies get some spotlight, but it doesn't look like Sony is suddenly gearing down indie support and going AAA only.
TwilightPrincess
Member
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Sony had a 73 minute E3 presentation where they left out PlayLink and Gran Turismo Sport. I'm not surprised that an indie games sizzle reel didn't make the cut.
Audioboxer
Member
The BC remarks from Jim were stupid, and the remarks on cross-play were nuclear stupid. This however, when read as a full quote, seems to be more about explaining the conference decisions. Indies aren't going anywhere on PS, Sony just chased down Undertale which was a nice surprise. The European show whatever one they choose to do, and PSX, will probably have more indie announcements.
I like knocking Jim, but I can't really see much wrong here if you read it all. Translating it to Sony abandoning indies is a bit mental. Like it or not they have a few big hitters finally coming to completion or near completion and chose their 60 minutes at E3 to focus on them. Where as other E3s they maybe have spent more time on indie content because the big in-house studios were far too early in development.
I like knocking Jim, but I can't really see much wrong here if you read it all. Translating it to Sony abandoning indies is a bit mental. Like it or not they have a few big hitters finally coming to completion or near completion and chose their 60 minutes at E3 to focus on them. Where as other E3s they maybe have spent more time on indie content because the big in-house studios were far too early in development.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Given his explanation, why will you expect more indies at other places like PSX? He didn't say there's no indie showing at E3 because its not suitable for E3 crowds unlike other game conferences and showings they are going to have in other territories.
Audioboxer
Member
Because Sony tends to show other stuff at Paris/PSX? E3 this year was pretty much a blockbuster show off. One which GT didn't even make the cut for xD The VR section had most rolling their eyes, but for better or worse Sony are still trying to move those PS VR headsets. The PS VR headset didn't exist in 2013/2014.
The alternative to thinking along these lines is "omg Sony abandoning indies, never to be shown again!". Which is as I said a bit mental. Especially as they did chase down and get Undertale coming to PS4/Vita, one of the indie poster boys of the last few years. As much as Jim needs flak for the BC/cross-play nonsense, turning the hyperbole to over 9000 in here is a bit crazy. There's still a good supply of indie titles each week on PSN and PS+ is now pretty much all about indies given Sony still won't put Knack out on it lol.
Maybe they'll be best to go back to a 90-minute show for E3, but it appears this is now their chosen 60-minute format for E3. Hardly anyone on stage, just rattling through trailers/gameplay demos. Finished. You might have PSX to thank for that given neither MS or Nintendo really have their own large-scale expo yet.
^ In saying that people who ignore/pass off the preshow as "not part of E3" are doing it a disservice. It's actually a decent 60 minutes of announcing and showing a few things itself.
I was gonna bring this up cause after that mess id be concerned too.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
But like I said, Sony didn't say there's no E3 indie showing because they think other places like PSX/Paris is a better venue for them. Sony said there's no E3 indie showing because they are not focusing on indies regardless of venues.
Audioboxer
Member
It's a PR answer to cover E3. You can correct me if I'm wrong and there's "no diversity" shown at the venues still scheduled for the rest of the year. I'm sure Gio will still get his bit!
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
You can't really expect hardware platform holders to spend time showing indie games that aren't going to help sell their hardware as they can be played anywhere. Most of the third party stuff that gets time are things that are either coming first to their platform, have exclusive/timed exclusive content, or they have a marketing deal and will be getting exclusive tv ads, bundles etc. featuring that game even if it's available on other platforms.
Hardware platform holders care about selling their hardware and their first party games. They're not in the business of helping indie or third party games sell if they aren't getting any benefits from it. At best you get things like Nintendo's Nindies direct as that doesn't cost them much--but even they didn't waste time in their E3 vids on indies as that's precious time to sell their hardware and first party games.
The real solution is is for E3 to have a separate indies press conference. But I'm not sure how that would work as someone has to pay for it. The indies don't have the money likely, and even if they did are they going to want to pool together and help promote their direct competition?
Wow.
Complicated
Banned
Hasn't stopped them with Destiny which is the other contender for most negative launch this generation.
Duxxy3
Member
At least they didn't throw a concert for Destiny 2.
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
I mean I'm not saying it should be that way any moral sense. Just that it's the way capitalism works.
The hardware makers are putting on these hugely expensive marketing press conferences to showcase things that will sell their hardware and first party games and increase their profits.
That's why fanboyism is ridiculous. None of these companies care about the good of the hobby/art in any true sense. All they care about is making as much profit as possible. Individual people within care, but not the investors they have to keep happy with profits.
From that background, why waste money showcasing non-exclusive games (indie or otherwise) that have little to know impact on their bottom line?
It sucks for us consumers who just want to see everything, but that's not the platform holders' concern.
Ultimately, Jim Ryan quite clearly states the importance of showing VR over indies no matter what way you cut it.
Indies are not as relevant to take about on stage as PSVR? Okay.....that's still a problem imo.
And the Rime dev's latest comments regarding creative freedom might shatter the illusion some are under that Sony can and has not done any wrong by indie devs:
http://sirusgaming.info/2017/06/rim...-freedom-with-greybox-as-publisher-than-sony/
Indies are not as relevant to take about on stage as PSVR? Okay.....that's still a problem imo.
And the Rime dev's latest comments regarding creative freedom might shatter the illusion some are under that Sony can and has not done any wrong by indie devs:
http://sirusgaming.info/2017/06/rim...-freedom-with-greybox-as-publisher-than-sony/
themagicalkitsune
Member
Why do you keep responding to a person that could only muster a "wow" as a response?
Monster Hunter: World, MvsC, Destiny 2, Cod. They dedicated plenty of time (and money in marketing deals) for multiplat games. It's well known that Sony isn't our friend. But they really should be friendly with indies. Heck, Housemarque that has played big part in Playstations early success with their launch games was at E3 guerilla style, with a laptop and a flag until they were ushered away since they didn't have permission to be there. Sad state of affairs that Sony didn't showcase them in their presentation. This ingratitude and disrespect shows in Ryan's comments too. It's not just about the consumers who want to see indie games showcased, it's how they treat indie developers.
If you want to defend their decisions based on economics then let's talk about this.
You're completely disregarding that Sony take a fixed percentage cut from every title sold on their store. In addition, the biggest title in the world right now started as an indie game.
If you've got a large catalogue of indie games, then you're bound to find titles which have interesting gameplay ideas, and titles which have communities all excited for their releases.
That means you've already got your market to capitalise on, with an obvious potential for that to grow with it given the right stage.
With that in mind, if you produce a short video which shows short clip of these videos, which will cost a tiny fraction of what an exclusivity deal of an AAA would cost, you're giving these small developers the audience of millions.
This is bound to create interest, more people will be interested and that small market has just grown into a much larger one, with all of that market giving you a slice of the pie with the sales.
The developer will absolutely love you for giving them the chance on-stage, and will be more open to closely work with you on their up coming titles in the future. Whether that be exclusivity, marketing deals or exclusive content. When that new title releases, you'll of grown that market even further with more sales revenue and with a developer who's got the excellent chance to upscale and start producing bigger and higher quality games in-which you'd be the first to be approached about deals for it.
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
I agree they should be friendly. At the same time, the bulk of the titles you listed have some exclusivity deals with Sony. Apparently permanently exclusive content for Destiny 2, timed-exclusive map packs for COD, probably some marketing/bundle deals for Monster Hunter I'm guessing (since that was a staple on PSP etc. before they lost it to Nintendo). Not sure about MvsC, that may just be a result of their relationship with Capcom from SFV being console exclusive. Point being they likely had a self interested reason for the third party stuff they gave time to.
In any case, things like E3 really should just die already. We don't need these huge information dumps in the internet era when people can release news, videos etc. anytime they want. Things like indies even if shown get hugely lost in the shuffle during E3 and other events where all the spotlight is on the new AAA announcements that wow people. Indies get far more spotlight from something like a Nindies direct than if Nintendo or Sony put a minute or two clip in their conference shows.
My point is most people only own one consoles, thus Sony just cares about showcasing things that will see their hardware--primarily their first party exclusives and third party games with exclusive content.
Once they make that sell, they'll get that revenue from any indies someone gets interested in, as again most only have one platform outside of the diehards on sights like this. They can promote those games through PS blog posts and other outlets vs. wasting precious E3 stage show time--that's the economic argument I'm getting at (not suggesting it's good for the industry from an art standpoint).
Indies just play little to no role in hardware purchase decisions as they're available everywhere and a huge swath of them will run on basic, non-gaming PCs and laptops most people already have even. I'd love to see them get more exposure like everyone else, but I get why it makes little economic sense for hardware makers to dedicate E3 time to them when they get more bang for their buck focusing on their exclusive content at the AAA level as that's what drives sales. And of course Sony has gotten less friendly as we all know how fucking terrible arrogant Sony is when they're dominating the sales market.
Never mind the fact that some of the VR games.....you know that they did showcase....
.....some were indies.....
Nevermind he basically said they have come so far that they dont really need an entire segment to showcase them. They can be mixed in with the regular stuff.
.....Ya know...like that VR showcase....
Or ya know...like the pre E3 showcase....
Outrage is gonna outrage I guess.
whalleywhat
Member
I've never minded the 'indie reel'. You see the artstyle and get some sense of the gameplay, and there's a bit of Where's Waldo 'whoa, what was that' to watching them. E.g., that game with the guy playing guitar that MS showed would have been just as well served with 10 seconds.