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Jimquisition: Why It's Morally Okay To Pirate All Of Nintendo's Games (Feb. 20, 2017)

lyrick

Member
This is a good point, but MST3K definitely falls under transformative work for me.

That's odd because the the shows legal team didn't find it transformative enough to even try and release the films without license...

for those who don't remember as well. Remember Nintendo and there shit against video game rentals? They are a company that wishes to own you by their product

Rentals are wholly covered by the first sale doctrine.
 

Chabbles

Member
Whose copyright is he in violation of?

Is he advertising his patreon on top of material that he lacks the right to use?

Who really stole from who first? Or rather who rightly claimed the benefits of their stolen copyright?

Well, if Jim is to be believed, he states in the video that even within the boundaries of fairuse Nintendo will still fuck him and others over ?.

Who is stealing from who ? Just say you make an hour long video with 30 seconds of footage of some Nintendo game in there somewhere. Then Nintendo comes along and monetizes and claims all revenue on a full 60 minute video. That would fuck your day up. Making a video game is obviously on a whole other level to a youtuber creating a video, but Nintendo are petty as can be if they're screwing over people in that way. I can see both sides of the argument, i just think Nintendo should get with the times.
 

lyrick

Member
Well, if Jim is to be believed, he states in the video that even within the boundaries of fairuse Nintendo will still fuck him and others over ?.

Who is stealing from who ? Just say you make an hour long video with 30 seconds of footage of some Nintendo game in there somewhere. Then Nintendo comes along and monetizes and claims all revenue on a full 60 minute video. That would fuck your day up. Making a video game is obviously on a whole other level to a youtuber creating a video, but Nintendo are petty as can be if they're screwing over people in that way. I can see both sides of the argument, i just think Nintendo should get with the times.

Nintendo offers licensing arrangements, if a "creator" feels they they are actually in violation of a valid Fair Use defense they are free to prove their point in court.
 
That's odd because the the shows legal team didn't find it transformative enough to even try and release the films without license...

That's because it costs more time and money to go to court than it does to license something. That doesn't mean it isn't transformative and wouldn't be determined as such in court.

Nintendo offers licensing arrangements, if a "creator" feels they they are actually in violation of a valid Fair Use defense they are free to prove their point in court.

The fact that you put "creator" in quotes here pretty much proves you aren't entering into this debate in good faith.
 

Spman2099

Member
Rentals are wholly covered by the first sale doctrine.

As are youtube videos through fair use.

Arent Nintendo going into Jims storefront (a video he creates) and taking (arguably stealing?) all revenue, pretty sure thats one of the points being highlighted in the video.

They absolutely are. Don't listen to Lyrick, he is a shill (or at the very least, an apologist) desperately trying to muddy the water with misinformation.
 

TLZ

Banned
Nintendo offers licensing arrangements, if a "creator" feels they they are actually in violation of a valid Fair Use defense they are free to prove their point in court.

I don't know any other way to put this nicely, as you've been going on and on enough about this; Gtfo.
 

Steroyd

Member
Nintendo offers licensing arrangements, if a "creator" feels they they are actually in violation of a valid Fair Use defense they are free to prove their point in court.

I've seen people mention this multiple times but what is the endgame of Jim taking Nintendo to court? Jim hasn't lost revenue because he isn't making any from the video in the first place. And if he does win all he'll look to get at best is Nintendo putting their hand up and admit they were dicks, that's not worth the legal fees and the time to go through that nonsense.
 

Fisty

Member
Slapping a voice over on top of a derivative work (like videogame footage) doesn't really qualify as original content or else the MST3K guys wouldn't have had to spin off Rifftraxs to keep everything on the up and up.

Making video footage of a video game is itself a transformative work. It's literally not the same experience as playing a game, which is the point of games.

What MST3K does is show you the work in the exact format it is meant to be viewed or experienced, but with commentary. The commentary itself is not what makes it a transformative work.
 

CazTGG

Member
Slapping a voice over on top of a derivative work (like videogame footage) doesn't really qualify as original content or else the MST3K guys wouldn't have had to spin off Rifftraxs to keep everything on the up and up.

You're being willfully ignorant: The addition of voiceover material is a substantial addition and transforms the original work, much like editing footage of a movie to make a point about it changes the nature of the work to not infringe on the owner's copyright. Nintendo doesn't seem to recognize this, which is the entire point of the video: Their "my way or the highway" approach to copyright is hypocritical at best, downright malicious at worst. I can speak from personal experience as Nintendo claimed a review of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D and rejected the dispute simply on the basis of them being able to given the broken, easily abused system YouTube has in place that they continue to willingly take advantage of:

rXb6Lzo.png

You'll forgive me if I find Nintendo's position to be indefensible when folks like Jim Fuckin' Sterling Son, Angry Joe and countless others content creators have been struck by Nintendo's inflexible copyright lightning.
 

lyrick

Member
Making video footage of a video game is itself a transformative work. It's literally not the same experience as playing a game, which is the point of games.

What MST3K does is show you the work in the exact format it is meant to be viewed or experienced, but with commentary. The commentary itself is not what makes it a transformative work.

Be careful not to confuse Derivative with Transformative. Removing an element of something or slightly altering an Art form like making a novelization of a film or a cinematic version of a novel, is Derivative, not Transformative.
 

Bluth54

Member
Aren't most movies MST3K showed from the Public Domain?
Yeah MST3K did a lot of pubic domain movies and the ones that weren't public domain they had to get the rights to. Of course MST3K shows an entire movie which is very different than most YouTube videos.
 
It's worth noting that transformative doesn't necessarily mean slapping on voiceover and calling it a day, or the video not being the same experience as actually playing the game. Especially when you can counter those arguments pretty easily by pointing to how exposing game content regardless of the person not "experiencing" it, can affect sales and dissuade people from playing (not saying it's valid because obviously it doesn't have the quantification factor, but that's something the opposing side will argue in context of transformative works and video games), or at how the voiceover doesn't make any meaningful comment in regards to what the visual content is showing.

Courts typically take two questions into account when judging whether a work is transformative or not. Keep in mind that this is a grey area and relies on interpretation so courts can view things very differently from NeoGAF/etc:

1) Has the material you have taken from the original work been transformed by adding new expression or meaning?

2) Was value added to the original by creating new information, new aesthetics, new insights, and understandings?

This is why I argued a while back that if Jim was taken to court, he would more likely lose for the way the visual content is used without actually doing anything with them. His commentary is completely exclusive to what was shown on the video. It's like borrowing uncited quotes from a book, making an irrelevant analysis and expecting fair use to apply when there's no relationship between the two things. Especially worse is publicizing the whole gaming YouTube's system, which the opposing lawyers would likely tear into.

To me, stuff like GamExplain falls under fair use since they're adding new information and meanings with existing content through their analyses, whereas I can't really see Jim's being fair use since his argument is so broad that it didn't require the visual content in order to create that position.
 
Spoken like someone who never had to deal with youtube systems.

LOL

Actually I don't think they much care about YouTube's system. They feel that going to court to classify every instance of possible Fair Use is entirely reasonable and that absent that control should fall entirely to the copyright holder, so any thing short of that no matter how messed up is of course a step up.

Though, as mentioned above , videos where Jim just talks about unrelated stuff probably don't qualify as fair use (they might if he was commenting on the footage or using it to make a visual joke).
 
I remember the 'fair use' bros from the thread about Angry Joe 2 years ago.

What I posted.

NOT FAIR USE

A couple cases where a product dealing with some IP was produced and sold...

-A company published a book entitled Welcome to Twin Peaks: A Complete Guide to Who's Who and What's What, containing direct quotations and paraphrases from the television show Twin Peaks, as well as detailed descriptions of plots, characters, and setting.
-A company published a book of trivia questions about the events and characters of the Seinfeld television series. The book included questions based upon events and characters in 84 Seinfeld episodes and used actual dialogue from the show in 41 of the book's questions.


A couple cases where the use was a small feature or even less, a background feature, of what was produced...

-A television news program copied one minute and 15 seconds from a 72-minute Charlie Chaplin film and used it in a news report about Chaplin's death.
-A poster was used in the background of a television series for 27 seconds.

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/cases/

Those look pretty strict in what was judged to be over the line so it's definitely not a 'get out of jail free card' like someone else mentioned.
 
Also, publicly proclaiming that people's hard work should be stolen should be grounds for a site banning around here.

Entirely depends on the points being made in the video, he likes to make big sweeping "counter culture" statements in his titles that get further ironed out in his videos usually.

That being said I haven't watched the video and can't bring myself to because I really can't stand him 90% of the time. The points he ends up making I usually agree with, for the most part, but his delivery and the smarmy attitude he has kills my ability to watch without permanently pausing from the inflicted cringe damage.
 

Stiler

Member
No, Roger Ebert and Co and professionals in the music industry use official licensed material to supplement their reviews. Journalists follow journalistic standards taught to them in school and their business and correctly cite their non-original materials or receive press kits which license their usage. Students which utilize non-original materials do so with proper citation or pay the penalties of plagiarism.

People have been professionally doing this type of work for decades, without resorting to various forms of copyright infringement.

You do NOT need "permission" for fair use.

You do NOT have to use specific " press kit" materials either, do you think IGN/Gamespot only use these? No, watch any of their video reviews...
 

Cuburt

Member
I've seen people mention this multiple times but what is the endgame of Jim taking Nintendo to court? Jim hasn't lost revenue because he isn't making any from the video in the first place. And if he does win all he'll look to get at best is Nintendo putting their hand up and admit they were dicks, that's not worth the legal fees and the time to go through that nonsense.
His main point in the video, and the thing that seems to upset people that agree with him, is that Nintendo is stealing from him and that if they want to do that then it should be right to steal from them.


What is the more likely that courts will deem illegal, infringing on his "fair use" or piracy? One is far more clear cut than the other.
 

Wiseblade

Member
To me, stuff like GamExplain falls under fair use since they're adding new information and meanings with existing content through their analyses, whereas I can't really see Jim's being fair use since his argument is so broad that it didn't require the visual content in order to create that position.
What? Gamexplain's "final boss & credits" videos (that include no commentary or transformative elements, mind) are blatant breaches of fair use. It would be mind numbingly easy to make the argument that those videos hinder Nintendo's ability to sell their product in a way that Jim using tangentially related trailer footage with no audio doesn't. On an even more basic level, Jim isn't reuploading Nintendo trailers and putting his own ads in front of them.
 
Why are people arguing about fair use?

This is a YouTube policy.

This isn't fair use, if Jim were to host it on his own site then he could claim it was fair use and no one would be able to get him to take it down.

Because YouTube is the host they are the ones who have to answer to copyright infringement complaints, that's why YouTube created this policy but it enables companies to claim content with very little evidence. Stuff that would get nowhere in court.

If Nintendo stop claiming videos another company can easily become as strict. The way to stop this is to get YouTube to change how they enforce this system and that's why people need to stop putting videos on YouTube. If you don't agree with the policies then don't use YouTube.

But people won't stop posting on YouTube because they want their audience so they have to answer to their policies.
 

koss424

Member
Well, if Jim is to be believed, he states in the video that even within the boundaries of fairuse Nintendo will still fuck him and others over ?.

Who is stealing from who ? Just say you make an hour long video with 30 seconds of footage of some Nintendo game in there somewhere. Then Nintendo comes along and monetizes and claims all revenue on a full 60 minute video. That would fuck your day up. Making a video game is obviously on a whole other level to a youtuber creating a video, but Nintendo are petty as can be if they're screwing over people in that way. I can see both sides of the argument, i just think Nintendo should get with the times.

Take a look at Jim's video - it's 17 minutes long. How many seconds are filled with Nintendo created footage that doesn't relate to the discussion at hand. Why doesn't Jim just put the camera on himself to get his message across? Because it's not as appealing as running Nintendo clips for his entire podcast.
 

lyrick

Member
Fair use does exist as a law in the UK, it's called 'Fair dealing'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing_in_United_Kingdom_law

And this applies to an American content producer, which hosts his videos on an American service exactly how?

Although
it does read the very similar to the American counterpart

WIkipedia link above said:
Fair dealing is a defence after the fact. If sued for copyright infringement, one can rely on fair dealing as a defence in court, but the defence "only comes into play once a claimant has established that copyright has been infringed.
 

Chabbles

Member
Take a look at Jim's video - it's 17 minutes long. How many seconds are filled with Nintendo created footage that doesn't relate to the discussion at hand. Why doesn't Jim just put the camera on himself to get his message across? Because it's not as appealing as running Nintendo clips for his entire podcast.

That would have (obviously) been done intentionally for this video. (im assuming you actually knew that before asking a stupid question)
 

SMD

Member
Take a look at Jim's video - it's 17 minutes long. How many seconds are filled with Nintendo created footage that doesn't relate to the discussion at hand. Why doesn't Jim just put the camera on himself to get his message across? Because it's not as appealing as running Nintendo clips for his entire podcast.

This has literally been answered multiple times.
 
It's worth noting that transformative doesn't necessarily mean slapping on voiceover and calling it a day, or the video not being the same experience as actually playing the game. Especially when you can counter those arguments pretty easily by pointing to how exposing game content regardless of the person not "experiencing" it, can affect sales and dissuade people from playing (not saying it's valid because obviously it doesn't have the quantification factor, but that's something the opposing side will argue in context of transformative works and video games), or at how the voiceover doesn't make any meaningful comment in regards to what the visual content is showing.

Courts typically take two questions into account when judging whether a work is transformative or not. Keep in mind that this is a grey area and relies on interpretation so courts can view things very differently from NeoGAF/etc:

1) Has the material you have taken from the original work been transformed by adding new expression or meaning?

2) Was value added to the original by creating new information, new aesthetics, new insights, and understandings?


This is why I argued a while back that if Jim was taken to court, he would more likely lose for the way the visual content is used without actually doing anything with them. His commentary is completely exclusive to what was shown on the video. It's like borrowing uncited quotes from a book, making an irrelevant analysis and expecting fair use to apply when there's no relationship between the two things. Especially worse is publicizing the whole gaming YouTube's system, which the opposing lawyers would likely tear into.

To me, stuff like GamExplain falls under fair use since they're adding new information and meanings with existing content through their analyses, whereas I can't really see Jim's being fair use since his argument is so broad that it didn't require the visual content in order to create that position.

And how is Jim NOT doing this? He clearly has a personality to his videos. The value added is pretty apparent imo. And if he is talking about a Nintendo game, showing that game in the background seems entirely reasonable to me.

Videos on can have a positive, negative, or neutral spin on them and Nintendo should be happy when people promote their games for them. It's free advertising. But when a negative video comes out, you can't just censor that one. It's just sort of scummy really.
 
What? Gamexplain's "final boss & credits" videos (that include no commentary or transformative elements, mind) are blatant breaches of fair use. It would be mind numbingly easy to make the argument that those videos hinder Nintendo's ability to sell their product in a way that Jim using tangentially related trailer footage with no audio doesn't. On an even more basic level, Jim isn't reuploading Nintendo trailers and putting his own ads in front of them.

I admit, I didn't think of the final boss videos and was focusing more on the analysis videos. But you raise a good point. Though in fairness, the sales argument doesn't work well with Jim's video, which is why I focused more on how the content in his video is essentially meaningless and irrelevant to his entire point (hence the essay analogy where he's basically picking out tidbits but doing absolutely nothing with them).

And how is Jim NOT doing this? He clearly has a personality to his videos. The value added is pretty apparent imo. And if he is talking about a Nintendo game, showing that game in the background seems entirely reasonable to me.

Videos on can have a positive, negative, or neutral spin on them and Nintendo should be happy when people promote their games for them. It's free advertising. But when a negative video comes out, you can't just censor that one. It's just sort of scummy really.

There was no insight made that SPECIFICALLY required those two pieces of visual content. Like I've said many times, he could have omitted the content and his argument would be no different. Unlike reviews which actually take snippets of content and expand on what's being shown. Just because he talked about Nintendo, doesn't mean that the visual content is now relevant to the discussion.

You're right about videos having certain spin, but how is this relevant when other videos have also been flagged by Nintendo regardless of whether someone's opinion was good or bad. There are egregious examples like Haedox being refused review copies since a lot of his reviews of Nintendo games are critical, but Nintendo enthusiasts have also gotten hit too despite singing their praises.
 
D

Deleted member 10571

Unconfirmed Member
Gamexplain has final bosses videos? I should probably unsub before Zelda comes out then, huh.
 
I admit, I didn't think of the final boss videos and was focusing more on the analysis videos. But you raise a good point. Though in fairness, the sales argument doesn't work well with Jim's video, which is why I focused more on how the content in his video is essentially meaningless and irrelevant to his entire point (hence the essay analogy where he's basically picking out tidbits but doing absolutely nothing with them).



There was no insight made that SPECIFICALLY required those two pieces of visual content. Like I've said many times, he could have omitted the content and his argument would be no different. Unlike reviews which actually take snippets of content and expand on what's being shown. Just because he talked about Nintendo, doesn't mean that the visual content is now relevant to the discussion.

You're right about videos having certain spin, but how is this relevant when other videos have also been flagged by Nintendo regardless of whether someone's opinion was good or bad. There are egregious examples like Haedox being refused review copies since a lot of his reviews of Nintendo games are critical, but Nintendo enthusiasts have also gotten hit too despite singing their praises.

Its relevant because Nintendo specifically sends early copies to certain YouTubers. When those YouTubers don't always give them positive videos, they act in a scummy way. If Jim was some kind of Nintendo shill would they treat him the way they do? That's why I brought it up. But the main point is that I personally think Jim makes good videos. Its not like he just takes a Nintendo video from start to finish and puts his voice over it.

Idk, I personally enjoy watching YouTube videos that have something going on on screen. Just watching a YouTuber behind a camera is boring. But hey, if you want YouTube personalities to do that... that's your deal.
 
Its relevant because Nintendo specifically sends early copies to certain YouTubers. When those YouTubers don't always give them positive videos, they act in a scummy way. If Jim was some kind of Nintendo shill would they treat him the way they do? That's why I brought it up. But the main point is that I personally think Jim makes good videos. Its not like he just takes a Nintendo video from start to finish and puts his voice over it.

Except this has nothing to do with positive/negative reviews because like I've said, both sides are getting hit by Nintendo's Content ID. If Nintendo really cared about positive PR spin, do you think they would have suggested the Nintendo/YouTuber Partnership thing for their fans? Logic says they would leave the positive fans alone and only focus on attacking negative fans' content. Putting aside my position on Fair Use and applications on videos, it's pretty disrespectful what Nintendo is doing to their loyal fanbase even if they have valid reasons. For Nintendo, it has and always been about IP restrictions and protections.


Idk, I personally enjoy watching YouTube videos that have something going on on screen. Just watching a YouTuber behind a camera is boring. But hey, if you want YouTube personalities to do that... that's your deal.

Leaving the legal aspects aside: I never said I wanted YouTubers to do that, but at least have a point to what you're showing, like analysis or comments about what you found interesting about it. Watching contents of a trailer isn't really interesting to me as I could just go watch the actual trailer itself instead. To me it's the visual version of purposeless poppycock found in essays where you can tell the author padded just to meet the page quota.
 

Dremark

Banned
Arent Nintendo going into Jims storefront (a video he creates) and taking (arguably stealing?) all revenue, pretty sure thats one of the points being highlighted in the video.

If you actually read my other replies on this topic you'd clearly see I don't condone what he's criticizing Nintendo for either.

Thinking that Nintendo is wrong doesn't automatically justify any actions taken against them and it's completely possible for both parties to be in the wrong, which IMO they are.

He's not literally condoning literally taking things.

He's literally encouraging theft and just putting in enough of a disclaimer that he can deny it if he needs to.
 

Lanrutcon

Member
He's literally encouraging theft

He literally said he doesn't encourage theft.

You're welcome to read between the lines and interpret his rant (in its entirety) as you will, but when it comes to what he literally said it's (objectively) clear cut.
 

Dremark

Banned
Were you one of the people who angrily thought Brass Eye was real?

No idea what you're talking about.

He literally said he doesn't encourage theft.

You're welcome to read between the lines and interpret his rant (in its entirety) as you will, but when it comes to what he literally said it's (objectively) clear cut.

He's saying it's morally ethical to steal from them and gives advice on how to do it. Saying "oh yeah don't do this" sarcastically isn't enough to make it so it's not promoting it.
 
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