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Jonathan Blow plays Breath of the Wild

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Mael

Member
That is hardly a case in point. First of all, he is saying 7-8, which hardly amounts to "it sucks". Not at all, actually. And secondly, should everyone (meaning all millions of gamers playing Zelda, or even all tens of thousands of Gaffers) share the opinion of the average score based on a hundred or so reviews? Reviews amongst which there were a couple of lesser scores as well mind you, albeit a very low amount (which should be a testament to the game's quality).

I don't own a Switch or WiiU so cannot comment on this game myself btw. But I don't think stating something along the lines of "game X scored 90+ so people can't dislike it!" is a very good way of discussing the medium.

Complaining about shitty puzzles in Zelda games when they have NEVER been good to begin with is kinda like complaining that the shooting bits in SMG is not up to par compared to your usual fps.
Even more so when the puzzles presented are of much higher quality than pretty much everything they threw at us since OoT MQ.
Puzzles aren't the meat of Zelda and never were, if you want real good puzzles go play stuff like Layton.
I actually care little about if he thought the game was good or not.
The content of the criticism is more interesting than the existence of the criticism.
 
That is hardly a case in point. First of all, he is saying 7-8, which hardly amounts to "it sucks". Not at all, actually. And secondly, should everyone (meaning all millions of gamers playing Zelda, or even all tens of thousands of Gaffers) share the opinion of the average score based on a hundred or so reviews? Reviews amongst which there were a couple of lesser scores as well mind you, albeit a very low amount (which should be a testament to the game's quality).

I don't own a Switch or WiiU so cannot comment on this game myself btw. But I don't think stating something along the lines of "game X scored 90+ so people can't dislike it!" is a very good way of discussing the medium.

There comes a point where if you do dislike a widely beloved game, you need some really good points in order to not make yourself look like a fool. His point wasn't one of them.
 

Bronetta

Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
You don't need to be good at playing something to understand and appreciate the design behind it. Hell, I die way more than I should in Souls games, but I absolutely love the design philosophies and carefully crafted environments and atmosphere

And that's not a good critique. Said novel doesn't usually come with a dictionary to teach you those words, or include author's notes that help ease you into that style of writing. Plus you can still read the novel, just like you can still play the game.

My analogies always get picked apart. Stuff like movies and books, even if its themes and symbolism are up for interpretation, happens in a linear striaght forward line.

Games are far more interactive than other forms of media. Theres a lot more going on at any given time when the player input affects the progress. Whether you understood a scene in a movie or a complicated paragraph in a book, you can just skip that and proceed. Video games hit a roadblock if the player doesnt process what to do next. Thats where hints, markers and waypoints come in which are decisive themself.

Especially as games get more ambitious, open ended and technical, people will have varying degrees of playstyles and opinions. Once again not like movies or books where everyone experiences the same thing but comes out with a different interpretation. In video games a person can have different experiences which bring them to even more wildly different interpretations. These experiences are shaped by the players abilities, to name a few: hand-eye coordination, problem solving, situational awareness and analysis.

Not everyone has the same skillset or mindset and if a game requires more of a certain skillset or mindset which the player doesnt have or isnt willing to invest in, it will heavily influence their opinion of the game.

Take Uncharted 4 for example. Its a narrative focused game which is more of a slow burner. Its meant to be intimate with lots of quiet time to bond with characters. Because that is not the mindset I had coming from Uncharted 2 and 3, it heavily influenced my opinion of the game in a negative way. I wanted more of the exhilerating high octane action but because I didnt have the right mindset the game didn't click for me.

I can also tell you that some people go into a game absolutely trying to nitpick everything about it. I have a friend whose like this and getting him to try new games can be an absolutely miserable experience because he just sits there complaining instead of acknowledging the good parts. I brought over BotW for him to try out and he dismissed the game off the bat because the game uses the top face button to jump. Without even giving the game so much as a chance he had already dismissed it. A glass half full vs glass half empty situation.
 

MisterR

Member
There comes a point where if you do dislike a widely beloved game, you need some really good points in order to not make yourself look like a fool. His point wasn't one of them.

No, there really is no point at which this is true. All art is subjective. Nobody has to have a list of reasons for not liking something.
 
Finally got to watch this and yeah, it's pretty ridiculous. It's obvious that he went into this game with the worst attitude he could muster and a definite predisposition to just shit on the game and he just gave the game no chance of proving him wrong by just not giving a shit about what the game was telling him.

I mean, the guy spent 5 minutes talking about how weird it is to make a game in which you control a young kid. Does he know how many fables have a young person as the protagonist? Was Zelda 1 also weird for him?

And he made no use whatsoever of the camera or lock on feature but still would dare to complain about it when he would die because of it?

And also his sense of humor is really bad, like 12 year old bad. Nontendo swatch? The kind of joke that a silly internet troll kid would make to try to piss off Nintendo fans.

I really love his games and even liked the lectures I've seen of him but this video is just garbage and I have no problem disregarding his opinion on BOTW because he did not play the game in an intellectually honest way. He just wanted to have fun at the game's expense and trying to cause controversy among the fans. Really awful for somebody his age and relevance in the gaming industry.
 

thefil

Member
My argument is that this isn't even opinion. There's no reasoned opinion here - it's just stream of consciousness while streaming. We're not even sure if he will feel the same 12 hours later after thinking about the game, or how he would articulate his criticisms if he was making a real case.

After getting into the second hour of the video, I kind of disagree with my earlier points. Since I was being overbearing, I thought it worth coming back and saying I was wrong. He does make some firm critical statements around this part of the video that don't sound just reactionary, so maybe it's worth discussing.

Lesson learned for the millionth time: watch the entire video first.

I still think calling someone an idiot for not playing the game "right" in the first session is wrong.
 
The witness was one of the most boring games I have ever played , yet I can accept to some it's a masterpiece .

However I would never do a twitch stream pulling apart every issue his games have, just seems very childish for someone who works in that industry.

Also maybe that's why the witness is a slow walking , simple puzzle interaction style game , because the guy is really bad at normal 3d games .
 
I love and respect Jon Blow as a creator. The Witness is one of my most favorite games I've played in recent years. Braid was in it's time as well.

That said, Jon Blow loves playing the iconoclastic, lonely genius. Just watch his Indie Game the Movie segments, or listen to him talk about ANYTHING.

Egoraptor nailed him perfectly like 10 years ago:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcg494_a-moment-with-jon-blow_fun

kLyVgbM.png
 

NewGame

Banned
Oh, are we in the "BoTW sucks" phase?

I swear every day BotW is out I see more and more praise for Skyward Sword. You people disgust me.

BotW is in so many ways a new generation of open world games and as the pearls are scattered far and wide eventually some will fall into pig pens.
 
I swear every day BotW is out I see more and more praise for Skyward Sword. You people disgust me.

BotW is in so many ways a new generation of open world games and as the pearls are scattered far and wide eventually some will fall into pig pens.
Hey now, don't be talking shit on the Zelda cycle. That cycle is tradition!
 

Mael

Member
Hey now, don't be talking shit on the Zelda cycle. That cycle is tradition!

Fuck that cycle. WW was shit in 2002, it never stopped being shit between then and now.
Same goes for Skyward Sword, it wasn't a particularly great game, that hasn't changed.
 
Fuck that cycle. WW was shit in 2002, it never stopped being shit between then and now.
Same goes for Skyward Sword, it wasn't a particularly great game, that hasn't changed.
WW was genius then it's genius now, I'll fight you IRL!
joking
 

Mael

Member
WW was genius then it's genius now, I'll fight you IRL!

Whenever you want.
Nothing will ever make pointless boring navigation with bad combat, shit puzzles, worthless exploration and general bad design any better now than it was before.
It's not ugly, it's even pleasing to the eye and that's about the extent of what works in that game.
Joking, not joking
 

Axass

Member
No, there really is no point at which this is true. All art is subjective. Nobody has to have a list of reasons for not liking something.
I beg to differ. I've studied art criticism at university and some of the biggest art critics think that art is objective. It's also one heated debate in philosophy.

Many feel that there's a distinction between taste (subjective) and beauty (objective).
 

JeTmAn81

Member
I swear every day BotW is out I see more and more praise for Skyward Sword. You people disgust me.

BotW is in so many ways a new generation of open world games and as the pearls are scattered far and wide eventually some will fall into pig pens.

I think it's just the nature of the Zelda cycle to deify the new game for its positives and let the negatives fade into the background. When BotW came out it seemed like a prime candidate to continue the Zelda cycle. It's a great game but hardly flawless. That's where the next part of the cycle comes in...those flaws are still percolating in our brains.
 
Whenever you want.
Nothing will ever make pointless boring navigation with bad combat, shit puzzles, worthless exploration and general bad design any better now than it was before.
It's not ugly, it's even pleasing to the eye and that's about the extent of what works in that game.
Yeah, but what about that sweet sweet Master Quest disc?
 
Watched some of this, and honestly some of it matches my own thoughts on the game, but he does come off as having a bit of a predetermined opinion. I spent 40 hours with it and completed it, but I think it's a mediocre Zelda game.
 
Complaining about shitty puzzles in Zelda games when they have NEVER been good to begin with is kinda like complaining that the shooting bits in SMG is not up to par compared to your usual fps.
Even more so when the puzzles presented are of much higher quality than pretty much everything they threw at us since OoT MQ.
Puzzles aren't the meat of Zelda and never were, if you want real good puzzles go play stuff like Layton.
I actually care little about if he thought the game was good or not.
The content of the criticism is more interesting than the existence of the criticism.

I've liked a lot of puzzles in Zelda games and puzzles are the only gameplay mechanic I like in them. They most certainly are the meat of the series to me. And all the puzzles I've seen in BotW so far have been shit. The main problem is that the open structure of the game simply doesn't lend itself well to puzzle design.
 

RedFury

Member
Ok I'm back. It's probably to late but here I go.
I went through your posts in this thread. You never really defend what Blow says, you just complain about other people critiquing the video.
Just as you say NOT once do I defend him (and his sometimes incoherent ramblings), but his valid criticisms. Yeah the dude is hard to listen to and voice annoys me to be honest but there is good criticism in there too. I'm talking to posters that say "ah what does he know", "he's just jealous", etc. Without even a mention about the valid complaints, let's talk about that. That's what I'd like, where we can talk about what would have made this game perfect to you, what improvements could have been made, etc. without a zelda thread going to shit.

Why should I think critically about his thoughts when, as evidenced many times in the thread, his thoughts are clouded with bias and poor skill? Why can't you practice what you preach and see what those supposed man babies who "call Horizon shit," have to say? The idea that you have to debate and analyse every piece of criticism no matter how shoddy, bias-driven and lacking in skill is an idea I can't get behind.
Why do you all keep going to the skill argument? I think Blow is pretentious and COMES OFF as rude, the dude is blunt. I find it refreshing. I don't agree with many of his musings but do on the puzzle side of things and some of the mechanics aspect. Those thoughts don't become invalidated because you don't agree with everything else. Also while I'm not perfect (when it comes to Xvipers opinion mostly) I do practice what I preach. I do listen to the criticism and in many cases agree. Now it kind of hard to get much out of "X game is shit", "Fuck tower games", etc. though, which I don't even consider criticism at this point. Also like I've stated im not arguing you take everything he says, the dude says some stupid shit but has valid complaints. I've seen these voiced but no one is willing to talk about (at least before the thread goes south). I also don't understand the notion that one must be able play the games a set value before criticism can be made, but you don't have to watch an entire video before making blanket accusations. Did you watch the whole video or skip through? Did you really not find anything he brought up that you thought was valid or matched your views? Seriously I'm not talking about this damn game when I said man babies. I'm talking about this generation of people who lack critical thinking skills, are unwilling to take criticism (or see it as a personal attack), think they're infallible(or just act like it). It wasn't directed at you because you don't fit the criteria do you? (Lol if you did you'd never admit it by definition)
Watched some of this, and honestly some of it matches my own thoughts on the game, but he does come off as having a bit of a predetermined opinion. I spent 40 hours with it and completed it, but I think it's a mediocre Zelda game.
Holy shit if that's the case can't wait to play the others. Which ones are your favorites?
 

MoonFrog

Member
I will ride for Nintendo puzzle & gadget gameplay, stuff is great and has always been the chief attraction for me to Zelda and Metroid. Really don't understand saying that Zelda puzzles are shit and that that isn't even a criticism worth mentioning because they are shit.

I also think BotW has a lot of really good puzzles. The shrines are quite good.

I don't get what is supposed to be bad about them? Are they supposed to be opaque, dull, simplistic?

I don't think they're the first two and definitely not always the last one.

I also don't think it is a flaw of a puzzle being simplistic in a game. Zelda is a light action/adventure, light puzzler sort of game. Even in "heavier" puzzlers, simple puzzles are often the core and strongest content.

Like, idk, the Witness? It lives and dies on intuitive, simple puzzles that build towards more complex puzzles.

Not saying this against Blow because I didn't watch the stream, just against the "Zelda puzzles are shit" conversation in here, which I can't wrap my head around.

I do think where BotW fails me is in how disjoint its puzzler element from its exploration/RPG element is. The places where the two come together in "outdoor shrines" are some of the best parts of the game. And going forward...I think Zelda needs to take a good long look at how Metroid and Zelda have dealt with traversal in the past. That's how you make a better Zelda game.
 

JP_

Banned
The Witness was the most mean-spirited mess of a game, created by an ego-driven madman. I wouldn't trust anything he has to say when it comes to a player's best interests.

Joseph Anderson did a great video on The Witness and the contradictions within it and what Johnathon said about it before launch. It really didn't come off as a game made with good intentions.

This is such a weird thing to say.
 

Arttemis

Member
After getting into the second hour of the video, I kind of disagree with my earlier points. Since I was being overbearing, I thought it worth coming back and saying I was wrong. He does make some firm critical statements around this part of the video that don't sound just reactionary, so maybe it's worth discussing.

Lesson learned for the millionth time: watch the entire video first.

I still think calling someone an idiot for not playing the game "right" in the first session is wrong.

I listened to the entire thing. He does mention fair criticisms about the item durability and the complexity of the puzzles for a total of about 15 minutes.

The rest of the 4 hours are spent complaining about:
Nintendo mixing up the A and B buttons
"How do I drop this weapon?"
"Where's the lemon menu?"
"Breaking boxes to find things in them is so mundane, I don't know why this is good game design" *as he continues to do it for 5 more minutes*,
"Why doesn't the game explicitly let me know I can't climb down this shear cliff of incredible height!?" *as he dies repeatedly for trying to descent the cliff side... followed almost immediately by...*
"Why does this game feature a chime for solving this puzzle? It's so unnecessary to let me know I succeeded." *despite complaining 20 minutes earlier about not being guided by the game enough*

Just because 6% of his rants may be legitimate doesn't mean he doesn't sound like an annoying, hypocritical idiot.
 
I've been playing through on the Wii U and at times, even with the updates ect. the framerate still seems almost unplayable in a uncomfortable unpolished feeling way... I have NO idea how they didn't get reamed for this. Is the Switch version much much better?

And I never been a stickler for framerate, I don't care if its 30fps or even has drops. But it baffles me in this day and age where everyone rates a game by its framerate that this game got a pass...
 

Hindl

Member
I've been playing through on the Wii U and at times, even with the updates ect. the framerate still seems almost unplayable in a uncomfortable unpolished feeling way... I have NO idea how they didn't get reamed for this. Is the Switch version much much better?

And I never been a stickler for framerate, I don't care if its 30fps or even has drops. But it baffles me in this day and age where everyone rates a game by its framerate that this game got a pass...
Yes the Switch version is much more stable and that's what pretty much all the reviewers played. It was still pretty rough and reviewers did comment on it, but it's exponentially better than the Wii U version
 

GoldStarz

Member
I've only played the Witness, but honestly it sounds like a lot of people are overblowing how good a puzzle game it was. Like yeah there were a lot of cool and interesting puzzles in there, but there were also ones like the fucking Bird Sound puzzles. It was a mixed bag.

Yes the Switch version is much more stable and that's what pretty much all the reviewers played. It was still pretty rough and reviewers did comment on it, but it's exponentially better than the Wii U version

I think people overstate the difference since I almost literally never ran into an issues.
 
Sure. I'll put my high horse to rest :). My response was motivated by people calling him an idiot or inferring things about jealousy or whatever. I think those reactions are totally out of place when watching any person's first interaction with a game, especially in an informal context like this. Knee-jerk reactions should not be evidence for *anything*, short of randomly dropping racial epithets.

News at 11, people are needlessly hateful on the Internet.

uh, i disagree. read this laundry list: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=241878399&postcount=239

i mean, several times, he actually criticizes the game for issues which are simply the result of him not understanding the game's mechanics! sorry, but i just don't see this as a sign of someone genuinely attempting to understand and enjoy a game. hell, blow's created 2 games, both of which involve highly defined/restricted character movement. considering this, & simply from a designer's standpoint. you'd think he'd spend more time admiring the many aspects of what works in a game as wide-open & flexible as botw, rather than obsessively pointing out its 'flaws'....

whether you like it or not, he comes across as unnecessarily harsh & negative. he's not so much critiquing the game for what it is, as he is criticizing it for being unable to do everything he wants it to do, whenever he wants it to do it! & it makes him look small, pompous, &, yeah, very likely just a bit jealous :) ...
 
Watching this vid though, danggg Jonathan goes into this wanting to roast the game haha. I've seen this so many times before, when someone really wants to dislike a game every little thing is just a huge ordeal. It always shows me how important context is to enjoyment of an entertainment item... people like to act like it has 0 impact and quality is the most important. I'd state context is almost the most important.
Yes the Switch version is much more stable and that's what pretty much all the reviewers played. It was still pretty rough and reviewers did comment on it, but it's exponentially better than the Wii U version

Figured as much, grrr. I guess I'll hold off.
 
No, there really is no point at which this is true. All art is subjective. Nobody has to have a list of reasons for not liking something.

If anyone can say anything about a work of art and have it all be of equal validity, then critique has no purpose. There is good critique and bad critique. People can choose to like or not like a thing for whatever reason, it's true, but if you want to say something of value, you need to back it up.

No critique is above critique.
 
I've been playing through on the Wii U and at times, even with the updates ect. the framerate still seems almost unplayable in a uncomfortable unpolished feeling way... I have NO idea how they didn't get reamed for this. Is the Switch version much much better?

And I never been a stickler for framerate, I don't care if its 30fps or even has drops. But it baffles me in this day and age where everyone rates a game by its framerate that this game got a pass...

My first playthrough was on the Wii U version (pre update), I noticed slow downs in towns and 3 bad dips while in the Goron area. It was definitely playable. Your experience might be an outlier.
 
It's kind of amusing when some invalidate his criticisms because "he makes terrible games", I can almost guarantee his games are better than the majority of neogaf posters games.

My first playthrough was on the Wii U version (pre update), I noticed slow downs in towns and 3 bad dips while in the Goron area. It was definitely playable. Your experience might be an outlier.

Hrm, yea the open world isnt terrible, just most areas with stuff. Just a little baffling how you let a game out like that... it's kind of the entire premise of making games, is to try to do cool stuff and make it run while doing said cool stuff.
 
Holy shit if that's the case can't wait to play the others. Which ones are your favorites?

Favorite overall is Ocarina of Time, but I've never played Majora's Mask which most people in here would tout as great.

Of those I've played all the way through I'd put Wind Waker, Twighlight Princess, A Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time all above Breath of the Wild. And the main reason for me is the absolutely abysmal dungeons in BOTW.
 
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