I can't think of another game that allows you to walk straight to the final boss after a tutorial area or puts so few limitations on the player's freedom. How many players will even reflect on the fact that a silver bokoblin deals more damage than Ganon? How many will even start seeing Silver bokos before they challenge Ganon? What they could have done I guess is to only start spawning silver mobs after you've beaten Ganon once. Might have made the overworld way too easy though for those that want to do everything before they beat the main quest.
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Joseph Anderson - Breath of the Wild Analysis
- Thread starter nynt9
- Start date
It's a tough problem to solve, and I look forward to hard mode to see how (if?) it's handled.
Do silver bokoblins attack more aggressively or is that my imagination? They seem to be more persistent in chasing Link down, and will continue to chase him after other bokoblins turn back to camp. They also do spin attacks more often.
Like has been said, its not a problem because some people don't experience this since you have to trigger blood moons and kill the bokos to make them level up. Ganon being a set power makes sense since it's been 100 years, what is another month to Ganon? The blood moon is also because of him, so besides fighting him during the blood moon probably being a little more difficult, him staying a set power is fine, especially since technically he's fighting
Zelda
He makes a lot of good points, both in criticism and praise. I agree that it's a phenomenal game that has its flaws.
- I feel the combat is close. Main inconsistency seems to be in spear-wielding enemies (including
) leaving a far too wide an opening for dodges/flurry-triggers. And conversely, perhaps leaving other weapons with too narrow an opening. Should be fixable with a patch.
- It's possible to 'break' the game early on, sure. But the idea that you start weak but become all-powerful by the end is somewhat inherent to the genre. Still, a couple more fights that stay challenging would be nice.
- Enemy variety is a slight problem. I like his idea for more region-specific encounters a la the Modulga. Better bosses would help as well.
- Also like his suggestion of a couple more fixable/recharging weapons. And yes, the fact that you can get stuck on an enemy the way he did with the Lynel in the desert is an oversight, running counter to the game's design philosophy. Adding an unarmed attack (a 1-damage punch) would be an easy solve.
- Wasn't bothered too much by the less-than-stellar story. I enjoyed what was there, and completely understand why Nintendo focused on other areas. But there's certainly room for improvement for the next game.
- Also liked many of the puzzles, in the shrines, beasts and some of the side quests. Do agree that there's slightly too much filler here. But I'm not sure if reducing the number of shrines/dungeons is the best fix, because there's something to be said for having quantity here: rewarding the player for exploration, even if the reward is a slightly oversimplified shrine or not-that-fun-in-itself side quest. As long as they're not too boring (and yes, the combat shrines and some of the fetch quests are too boring), it's good that they're there in the same way the Korok seeds are.
- Having said that, I do agree that Nintendo should take the better shrines and even earlier Zelda dungeons as a baseline next time: they're capable of better puzzle content than is in BotW.
- I feel the combat is close. Main inconsistency seems to be in spear-wielding enemies (including
waterblight ganon
- It's possible to 'break' the game early on, sure. But the idea that you start weak but become all-powerful by the end is somewhat inherent to the genre. Still, a couple more fights that stay challenging would be nice.
- Enemy variety is a slight problem. I like his idea for more region-specific encounters a la the Modulga. Better bosses would help as well.
- Also like his suggestion of a couple more fixable/recharging weapons. And yes, the fact that you can get stuck on an enemy the way he did with the Lynel in the desert is an oversight, running counter to the game's design philosophy. Adding an unarmed attack (a 1-damage punch) would be an easy solve.
- Wasn't bothered too much by the less-than-stellar story. I enjoyed what was there, and completely understand why Nintendo focused on other areas. But there's certainly room for improvement for the next game.
- Also liked many of the puzzles, in the shrines, beasts and some of the side quests. Do agree that there's slightly too much filler here. But I'm not sure if reducing the number of shrines/dungeons is the best fix, because there's something to be said for having quantity here: rewarding the player for exploration, even if the reward is a slightly oversimplified shrine or not-that-fun-in-itself side quest. As long as they're not too boring (and yes, the combat shrines and some of the fetch quests are too boring), it's good that they're there in the same way the Korok seeds are.
- Having said that, I do agree that Nintendo should take the better shrines and even earlier Zelda dungeons as a baseline next time: they're capable of better puzzle content than is in BotW.
kunonabi
Member
I didn't say that BotW actually did replace with them worthwhile. I personally don't think it did.
Vigilant Gambit
Member
I really liked this video. It was a more detailed way of articulating the problem I ran into: after 40-50 hours, the game simply got way too easy. I played a total of 81 hours, but the latter half of that was mostly just getting things done, and not being challenged at all. I'd start hunting, and stop only because I ran out of weapons. If there was some weapon stealing mechanic, that'd be great.
Magic Mushroom
Member
That's way longer than other Zeldas since the NES days, which were never challenging to begin with.
ok, but how is this relevant? This game is clearly trying to do something different so comparing to them in this aspect doesn't make sense. Its peers are other modern open world games.
InsaneTiger
Member
Sorta related but I just found this channel and his analysis is really good. Especially about Fallout 4.
So I suggest everyone to beat the game once at around 30 hours mark with incomplete memories to get the Normal End and fair enough challenge(I actually did it when finished 2 divine beast, the challenge is kinda amazing)
After that you can enjoy explore the world and get the true end at your own pace
But all after all, it's player's own style, you get the final quest at the very beginning, when you feel ready, you can directly go to the castle
also
turn on Pro HUD in hyrule castle, it's really really amazing to explore the castle without a map
If you mean easy as in overupgrading your defense, sell that armour and you can buy vanilla sets with base defense.
Vigilant Gambit
Member
I haven't been playing Zeldas.
I beat Ocarina, Wind Waker, and maybe Twilight Princess, but I can't recall if I finished it or just played it for a while. Skyward Sword I dropped before I finished the initial tutorial/town area. I wouldn't have bothered with BotW if they didn't do the open world thing.
Pretty much.
The thing is, I have other games I wanna play, and there's a bunch of content in BotW I haven't gotten to yet. I'm gonna wait for the DLC before I touch the game again, because it simply won't be fun otherwise.
Like the video said, the game is simply too easy to make a cakewalk. Spend a few minutes before each session cooking, and you can literally never lose a fight, no matter how bad at the combat system you are. And if you're good at combat, or you have good gear, then it doesn't matter what you cook. The only limitation is weapon durability, which is why that aspect of the game's design sucks. Past a certain point, you're good with all the weapon types, so the variety of "having" to use them all doesn't matter. Also, you eventually end up with so many weapon slots that you never really run out, and are just deciding what weapon to use next (like the video says).
Just about every issue Joseph had is one that contributed to me ending my play of this game, though I didn't actually run into all of them. The flurry rush thing, though, can't really be unseen.
Edit:
I shouldn't have to do this to keep the game fun.
Bayonetta is challenging. The only way to change that is to use a single glitch that lets you spam strong rockets in an unintended way.
Upgrading armor and cooking are fundamental mechanics in BotW, not glitches. But the game's combat doesn't seem to be balanced well around those mechanics, so if you use them properly, you just make the game a joke in terms of difficulty.
Joeshabadoo
Member
do people forget bombs exist?
I haven't been playing Zeldas.
I beat Ocarina, Wind Waker, and maybe Twilight Princess, but I can't recall if I finished it or just played it for a while. Skyward Sword I dropped before I finished the initial tutorial/town area. I wouldn't have bothered with BotW if they didn't do the open world thing.
Pretty much.
The thing is, I have other games I wanna play, and there's a bunch of content in BotW I haven't gotten to yet. I'm gonna wait for the DLC before I touch the game again, because it simply won't be fun otherwise.
Like the video said, the game is simply too easy to make a cakewalk. Spend a few minutes before each session cooking, and you can literally never lose a fight, no matter how bad at the combat system you are. And if you're good at combat, or you have good gear, then it doesn't matter what you cook. The only limitation is weapon durability, which is why that aspect of the game's design sucks. Past a certain point, you're good with all the weapon types, so the variety of "having" to use them all doesn't matter. Also, you eventually end up with so many weapon slots that you never really run out, and are just deciding what weapon to use next (like the video says).
Just about every issue Joseph had is one that contributed to me ending my play of this game, though I didn't actually run into all of them. The flurry rush thing, though, can't really be unseen.
Edit:
I shouldn't have to do this to keep the game fun.
Bayonetta is challenging. The only way to change that is to use a single glitch that lets you spam strong rockets in an unintended way.
Upgrading armor and cooking are fundamental mechanics in BotW, not glitches. But the game's combat doesn't seem to be balanced well around those mechanics, so if you use them properly, you just make the game a joke in terms of difficulty.
So freedom is bad? Cooking and armour isn't fundamental to defeating enemies, only weapons are.
I think the problem with game is that its too open, allows too much freedom.
Bayonetta requires you to kill enemies before you can progress. BotW lets you engage in multiple ways or outright ignore them. Can't compare the two.
I seriously think that sometimes honestly. Not only that but you can also constantly switch between the two bombs to recharge the bomb meter near instantly, makes taking care of large groups of enemies a joke.
Bombs do 20 fucking damage. Silver enemies have like 500hp what are you goin on about.
Another point I have to make is how bad the cooking is. For one you can completely break it by cooking like 1 radish for instant full heal and the same with endura mushrooms for instant stamina. Completely ruins any reason to try fancy recipes or elixers. Even if you want to do recipes for fun there's no in game collection log for your recipes so there isn't even a sense of completion there. Attack food is all I ever needed to grind through silvers.
You can cheese through pretty much all the enemies and bosses in the game with Arrows too. Sure you can choose not to and I respect the choice they give you in the combat but they just didn't make the mechanics fun.
I seriously played through the game like I was an explorer going on a really long hike and solving easy little puzzles in rooms that all looked the same. I still had fun and really enjoyed the world they created but there was so much I missed from previous Zelda's and so much more I expected from combat, story, and characters.
Its only challenging if you unlock the hidden dificulty, otherwise its still harder that zelda but nothing too crazy.
papercan55
Member
That makes so much sense that it's crazy it wasn't included, fingers crossed for dlc.
It's really strange as they clearly put effort into making all these dishes but the game is so easy and broken with some ingredients that it's almost pointless cooking anything else.
A recipe book that you can fill in when you discover dishes and a quest to complete the book would have been perfect. Should of been one left by koko's mother to fill in.
But this is the same nintendo that included a camera in pikmin 3 for taking photos yet left out any kind of piklopedia.
If you went into BotW expecting Bayonetta level of combat depth/difficulty then I don't know what to say. It's like a guy earlier in the thread comparing it to Doom. Combat is a small part of Zelda games. It's way more challenging in BotW than in previous Zeldas, but it's never meant to be a game that kicks your ass repeatedly over the course of 150 hours. They give you tons of tools to "break" the game with, but for the most part it's up to the player to find them and utilize them. You say the game became too easy after 40-50 hours, I'm going to guess that most players haven't found more than 1 or 2 Fairy Fountains at that time and haven't had the resources to upgrade much of their armor. Unless you look up cooking recipes online you're not guaranteed to find the gamebreaking ones at all, let alone early one. Hearty fruit is also somewhat rare.
Joeshabadoo
Member
simply replying to the bit about lacking an unarmed attack. what are YOU going on about?
also only thinking about the bomb variants in terms of damage output is foolish. They have much more offensive potential, separating groups, causing ragdoll fall damage if laid intelligently against baited foes, or disarming and stealing weapons
Throwing five of a single type of food into the skillet gives you big buffs. I found a half dozen +20 heart (or more) recipes within a few hours of playing.
I mostly make speed foods now to get around quicker.
Vigilant Gambit
Member
Cooking and armor are part of the combat system. With the right food and gear, you can effectively take zero damage from enemy attacks. In order for combat to be somewhat challenging in this game, you have to:
- Choose not to cook/eat much food during fights
- Choose not to upgrade your equipment past a certain point
- Choose not to take advantage of the overly-lenient flurry rush activation system
- Choose to restrict how you fight
If you do all of those things, then you can get something resembling a challenge. A fight being required or not, IMO, has no bearing on its difficulty. Some of the hardest battles in Bayonetta are completely optional in terms of finishing the game's campaign.
In Bayonetta, for a fight to be challenging, you don't have to do anything extra. It'll simply pose a challenge as-is. You don't have to figure out how to digitally tie one hand behind your back.
I disagree.
tl;dr: Exploration notwithstanding, BotW's game design is lacking, and doesn't hold up to mastery. It has the common board game problem of getting stale, even if it's novel at first (and for a while).
I went into BotW expecting nothing beyond the vague promises made by the very first unveiling of the game. I knew it was open-world, and that you could do bullet time jumps off of a horse with a bow and arrow. Beyond that, I went in with a clean slate.
All criticisms of the game are on the merits of what the game is, not what I think it should be. Any suggestion I have is just something I think would improve the quality of the game.
The interesting thing here is that I found 3-4 fountains, but only actually activated 2 of them. So I don't know that I ever quite got to the point where my armor was breaking the game. My criticism of the combat's difficulty (or lack thereof) was based on my experience of the game's combat once I broke my last shield. I changed my playstyle to start avoiding enemy attacks, and realized that I could just... not take damage. The problem with that playstyle is that it's not actually hard to do. Simply strafe around and dodge. Even if you don't get a flurry rush, you can generally easily keep out of the way of enemy attacks as you retaliate. I once beat a Lynel without a shield. I got a ton of kills, including bosses, without a shield. It's nice to have one to reflect lasers with, but even without a shield, a handful of arrows can keep a guardian locked down, as that's their only attack. I'd have my guardian resist gear, that I'd swap out for attack bonus gear while they were stunned from taking an arrow to the eye. Rinse and repeat. There's no style or combo system, so once you find an effective strategy to use on an enemy, you can just spam it til they die and win easily.
You don't have to look up recipes online. Find a single hearty anything, and cook it solo, otherwise you're wasting ingredients. Bam, instant heal. I had plenty of hearty fruit.
Honestly, it simply shouldn't exist. Not as it is, anyway. Even if you had to eat it in-game over time, it would probably still be too easy, as you can run from practically every fight without penalty.
I don't care what BotW is "meant" to be. I care about what it is. And it is a great game during the discovery phase, as you're learning how everything works, but once mastery starts to set in, and you've figured things out, the game starts to fall apart and become way too easy. And easy is boring. Combat goes from an enjoyable thing to a chore as a result, and stuff like weapon durability goes from being an interesting wrinkle to plan around to an annoying mechanic that gets in the way.
Just because combat is only one aspect of the game doesn't mean that it's okay for it to be bad. I agree with Joseph that it's strange that the game got as many high ratings as it did, because its flaws become obvious beyond a certain point. I know I certainly thought the game was the best ever made for those first 40-50 hours.
The Bayonetta comparison was just using a convenient example of a game with good combat that doesn't get boring. The better you get at combat in Bayonetta, the more fun the game gets. The better you get at Zelda, the less fun the game gets, as it simply gets easier. In Bayonetta, if the regular game starts to get too easy, you can increase the difficulty (as you unlock them), start doing Alfheim portals that change the rules of the game, or do the survival mode (once unlocked). There's even a secret boss, and a weapon that effectively doesn't unlock until you've put crazy hours into the game (or grinded specifically for it).
And all of that is simply in terms of completing the fights. If you want to make it even harder, you start playing for score so you can get Platinum and Pure Platinum finishes. Sure, you can win the fight, but how fast can you do it? Can you also do it without taking any damage? And can you do it with a stylish combo? The first and last points are awesome wrinkles, because the longer you take to fight, the more combo points you get, but the less speed points you get. You have to strike a balance between style and strength. Sometimes it actually means using equipment that is purposefully weaker than the default weapons, or equipment that makes enemies harder to kill. Then you can fight to your full potential, but now you have to race against time to kill them in under the time limit, but not so fast that your combo doesn't get enough points.
And all of what I just described has absolutely no analog in BotW. Not individually or in aggregate. Once you get better at BotW, the game is simply less fun. You get more stamina wheels, so climbing is simply easier. It's a game of "can I just jump all the way up that? No? Guess I'll hold Up and read reddit." You get more hearts, so if you take a hit, you can just eat something. There's no penalty for it. All you can do is choose to ignore certain game mechanics, but that only makes the game more punishing, not more difficult. There is a nuance.
Liked his analysis even if I don't agree with all the points. Really appreciated how he illustrated the flurry system and how it works (or doesn't) and the damage math systenm
1) the whole "not a Zelda" game is something I somewhat agree with. Sure, Zelda can be whatever it wants to I suppose but BotW is such a radical departure from every other game in the series thats its hard for me to say that this was the natural evolution of the series. If you change everything, but keep the same characters, is it still Zelda? Would Hyrule Warriors be considered Zelda then? I don't have an answer for this.
2) I liked the shrines, and didn't mind the test of strength repitition too much. I will say that some of the shrines are truly bad but there are still a lot of rewarding ones.
3) yes I wish there were decent dungeons, secret in world ones or something
4) exploring makes the game easier, that's just the fact and reward for doing so. I love it, I would hate if I did all the work of exploring and then still got my butt handed to me by a boss. Like leveling in bloodborne but the game scales the difficulty to your level, that would be dumb
5) I wish the menu eating wasn't a thing but you can choose not to use it.
6) bad final boss. Honestly I don't believe in story patches but if this is one thing they could fix I would be okay with it.
1) the whole "not a Zelda" game is something I somewhat agree with. Sure, Zelda can be whatever it wants to I suppose but BotW is such a radical departure from every other game in the series thats its hard for me to say that this was the natural evolution of the series. If you change everything, but keep the same characters, is it still Zelda? Would Hyrule Warriors be considered Zelda then? I don't have an answer for this.
2) I liked the shrines, and didn't mind the test of strength repitition too much. I will say that some of the shrines are truly bad but there are still a lot of rewarding ones.
3) yes I wish there were decent dungeons, secret in world ones or something
4) exploring makes the game easier, that's just the fact and reward for doing so. I love it, I would hate if I did all the work of exploring and then still got my butt handed to me by a boss. Like leveling in bloodborne but the game scales the difficulty to your level, that would be dumb
5) I wish the menu eating wasn't a thing but you can choose not to use it.
6) bad final boss. Honestly I don't believe in story patches but if this is one thing they could fix I would be okay with it.
It's a game about options, not about challenge per say.
I don't agree the games is not well balanced, it's open ended so it is expected that you can break any of it's systems, if you so choose to.
Hyrule Warriors is very obviously a spin off. BotW is a radical departure from a certain formula of the series. By being so close in design to the first NES game, some people could argue that it's the most "Zelda" game ever.
There is a precedent for what it tries to do, it's not like the changes come from nowhere. Exploration, discovery, mystery, nature... are all core elements of the series from the very start. So I don't really get this identity crisis thing.
I would say those are very, very broad terms that can be applied to... well, a lot of games. If we look at Zelda "conventions"
1) dungeons with unique items in them
2) dungeons allow progression through story
3) Overworld map that allows Link to go from dungeon to dungeon
4) Companion character
5) Simple combat
6) Hearts to restore health
7) No "platforming" (theres no jump button even)
etc. etc. Breath of the Wild changes ALL of these. Not that some of these are good (thank goodness for no companion character) but all of BotW's many systems are drastically different. There is a reason a lot of people are saying "I liked breath of the wild but eventually ill want a more "ocarina of time" like Zelda. Because its not an direct evolution, its a change.
I want to stress that I love BotW and all the changes that it does make except for the dungeons, but I am lying to myself If i ever thought "Oh yes, this makes sense for Zelda to be going in this direction"
Vigilant Gambit
Member
Open-ended games that let you do stuff how you want... don't need to automatically break when you get good at that.
Also I don't think it's useful at all to discuss this game in terms of what it does/doesn't do that previous Zelda games did/didn't do. Unless I at least see a 2 after a game's title, I consider it its own thing, even if it has a storied legacy in the IP.
Define getting good?
This is addressed in the video: sure, bombs are better than nothing. But they don't solve the problem in the way a punch would. Anderson reached a very hard monster very early in the game, was killed by it over and over, got gud (in dodging/parrying/flurry-rushing) and still could not win because the Lynel had more hit points than his weapons could deal in total.
I suppose he could try to bomb it from a distance, but aside from that being the opposite of fun, it's not much of a solution and certainly not much of a reward for getting so good at combat. As said, a punch move (which, he points out, Bokoblins have) would be an elegant and simple solution.
I find silver bokoblins do make me pause when I see them in a camp as they're much tougher. But the weapons they drop don't scale with their toughness IMO so its a net loss if I'm using up weapons to kill them. The last time I got set upon by a group with a silver bokoblin, I deliberately took out the lower tier ones just to steal their weapons and slowly chip away at the silver one, to avoid wasting my good weapons. Was kind of fun but I would prefer better drops from them.
I disagree but I think fundamentally we just went in with different expectations. The combat mechanics in BotW are good compared to many open world games and deeper than past Zelda games, but most of all there's a lot of options to it.
And in these games, a large part of the player progression is simply getting stronger so you can take more damage and deal more damage. There's a certain satisfaction in that even if I do understand those who want a strictly skill-based system as in Bayonetta. It's just not something I would ever expect Zelda to go with. BotW already raises the skill ceiling quite a lot compared to past titles, I wouldn't have anything against them continuing that trend with the next game but it's likely they'll always include systems that people can use to make things easier.
But hopefully they'll listen to all the people complaining about the game being too easy and include a Hard mode from the get-go next time that disables or tweaks some of the "gamebreaking" systems.
Here's the thing, its a game about freedom and the game expects you to figure out how to play and make your own fun. Its not a secret that the developers looked at Minecraft, among other games, when making this game. You're pretty much asking the game to hold your hand in terms of providing challenge. Thats not what the game is about.
If you can win a fight without eating food or wearing armour, then they are not a compulsory part of the combat.
Still don't understand why you keep comparing it to Bayonetta, a game based on combat. Assuming that you are talking about Rodin, one optional boss does not compare to being able to avoid and run past any mobs, guardians or lynels and still accomplish your objective.
Refreshment.01
Member
Those "broad terms" are corner stones of the series, that it can be applied to other games doesn't matter here since BotW handles them in a very "Zelda Way".
This blue print mainly applies to post Ocarina Zeldas. Something like Zelda II eludes various of the above bullet points. There's an old discussion that says these post Ocarina Zeldas missed something from the original.
BotW is the Zelda game that get's closer to evoke the feelings of the original. No surprise since it was one of it's design goals.
BotW doesn't change all, it more faithfully accomplishes what the Zelda team tried to achieve with Skyward Sword. One of the important differences with BotW is that it supports physic based puzzles instead of preset ones. However, the sensations of solving a riddle are kept intact with the rest of the games.
Aldric
Member
l find the idea BotW doesn't feel like a Zelda game baffling. All these things you've listed seem like pretty shallow elements to me, on top of being not true for some of them (3D Zelda games had plenty of platforming even with the awkward auto jump system and multiple 2D games had jump buttons). lf you actually start to look at the main elements that constitute the Zelda experience or identity or call it whatever you like, it's all there in BotW.
You've got exploration. A huge emphasis on puzzle solving as arguably the main gameplay element. Combat centered around a lock on mechanic, using swords, shields, bows and arrows. Goofy minigames. Sidequests. Towns. An instantly recognizable atmosphere that is generally absurd and almost comedic but can easily become eerie and unsettling. Races, landmarks and characters that have been featured in plenty of previous entries.
l honestly have no idea how you can look at all that and conclude BotW could be confused with a Xenoblade game or a generic fantasy action RPG. lt's Zelda through and through, and the fact it succeeded in preserving the franchise's individuality while changing the OoT structure is actually something it should be praised for.
Vigilant Gambit
Member
In BotW, getting good pretty much means being familiar enough with the systems to essentially not lose anymore.
If we're comparing open world games, then MGSV has far better combat than BotW. But that's not a useful comparison at all.
BotW doing certain things better than other games doesn't absolve it from not doing those things as well as it could have. It's nice to have a lot of options in combat, but at the end of the day, that doesn't make combat more interesting or fun. Some of those options make combat really easy, and them being there doesn't make it logical to use any other option, since the only "benefit" to those is that they might make the fight harder while maybe conserving consumable resources like weapons and ammo.
You can drop a boulder on an encampment full of sleeping enemies, or fire a bomb arrow into a group, or Magnesis-float a metal object into them during a lightning storm, or... well, none of those things are particularly challenging, or fun after you've done them once or twice.
What I'm asking for, and what you're describing, is what is known as game design.
You can win a fight without eating food or wearing armor, but food and armor exist in the game as discretely designed mechanics, and they are taken into account in combat as a result. Every single fight you have is in a world where you are probably wearing armor and carrying food around, because there is armor and food available. Saying it's not part of combat just because you have the choice of leaving it out makes no sense. That's like saying guns aren't a part of combat in Counter-Strike because you always have a knife to kill people with.
The difficulty is not open-ended. It starts out extremely hard. I died 20-30 times in my first few hours playing the game. It forces you to learn its systems. But once you do, or you progress too far down the equipment paths, or you figure out that you can carry a near-limitless amount of instant heals, or you figure out how to cheese the badly-implemented flurry rush system, or...
There's just a super-long list of individual methods of completely breaking combat in this game. They could all have been addressed with better design. The blood moon and color/ranking system shows that Nintendo does care about combat balance, but the way the other systems work shows that they don't care that much.
I'm only comparing it to Bayonetta in fair contexts. Being able to run away from a fight doesn't affect the difficulty of the fight itself. I think I've already mentioned that.
Also, kind of a dick move to spoil the optional boss in Bayonetta considering a lot of people are just now picking up the game for the first time with the PC version's release this week.
Berserking Guts
Member
BotW is an incredible template that can be improved upon in future installments. Like Mario 64.
I already said that only weapons are needed to kill an enemy, food and armour is NOT required. They are supplementary. Don't compare dealing damage to taking damage.
The difficulty IS open ended. If you want challenge, try to kill a Lynel using tree branches or only using shields or only using bombs for damage (all have been successfully completed btw)
You can break the combat but the choice is always there for you to not break it and I think that is important.
I am sure if this game was a linear affair like Bayonetta, the combat would be way more in-depth.
A game doesn't need to be linear to have good combat. They could have easily made the game more skill based and still left it open. The problem was that the developers were too scared to have true skill gates and instead resorted to shitty enemy scaling and weapon durability.
If you have to impose restrictions on yourself to make combat fun then the combat is bad.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Well, sort of. You do need two conditions on 'true skill gates' in an open world: the player needs to be able to make at least one mistake, as it simply isn't fun to get Game Over'd when encountering something new because you had no way of judging the scale of the difficulty, and you need to offer the player a way to disengage when they do recognise that this is not an area they can currently participate in. Breath of the Wild actually has both of these - you can't get OHKO'd from full health and will always be left with a quarter of a heart if an attack would have OHKO'd you at ful health (except in very specific circumstances and if anything I think these should be fixed), and you can teleport out of any encounter instantly. Ironically, Joseph actually complains about the former one of these conditions being present!
As long as checkpoints are frequent (like they are in BotW) then one hit kills are fine. Enemies not being able to one shot you even if you only have base health is incredibly dumb and ends up ruining the feeling of progression that games like this try and instill in the player. I never felt like I was truly improving in BotW.
Weapon durability IS a skill gate. Have a read through this thread where it is discussed.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358010
In the context of this game, it fits in very well and if removed, would break the game.
It's not a skill gate, it's a brick wall. Either you have the weapons to win a fight or you don't.
To retort his question why this game is a Zelda game is because it had to. Zelda's formula was getting stale and was getting stuck in it's own features, mechanics and trappings. In OoT they made it so you jump automatically from edges because they didn't the button and/or having control over jumping wasn't needed for the player. But because they continued to use that mechanic for future games it limited game design for future games. That's just one example.
BotW is a mold breaker for a series that really needed it.
BotW is a mold breaker for a series that really needed it.
Its only a brick wall if you keep running headfirst into it. Try climbing it.
How exactly will climbing help if you stumble into a major test of strength early on? If you don't have good enough weapons then you flat out can't win.
I agree with this post.
Come back later? Its not a linear game. I DID stumble onto a major test shrine early on to get a piece of climbing gear. I kept dying but finally managed to beat it. I could have geared up a bit more and came back. I also CHOSE to engage the Lynel at Zora's Domain even though I didn't have to.
Once you get a guardian below certain health, it will start firing lasers which you can just perfect parry. Don't need weapons at all. But the game isn't skill based right?
Yes, weapons are scarce during early hours of the game but after that its not a problem at all if you play with tact.
FreedomFighter
Member
Mounting them?
If you know how to parry well you absolutely can beat a MTOS with crap weapons. You might go through a lot of them while using flurry rushes to get to the laser stage of the encounter, but it's possible. Once you can use their lasers against them, it doesn't matter what gear you have.
That said, getting a MTOS guardian to that phase of combat can be brutal with shitty weapons. It's not impossible, though.