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Justice League - Comic-Con Sneak Peek
- Thread starter Theorry
- Start date
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This is addressed in at least one, if not two, follow up posts to the post you're quoting (in its entirety for a one-sentence response)
It's still tell, not show. It's not earned. It just happens.
I haven't actually said it didn't happen (and again, this is directly addressed by me in previous posts) just that it's not earned. Because it isn't. It's a storytelling shortcut to set up a status quo that nobody making the film has bothered to set up.
I mean, the whole discussion you were responding to is spun off a response to why people were reacting to Batman's line in the trailer, and the reaction comes via the disconnect between what we're being told and what we'd been shown in two prior movies. Nobody's saying the two movies didn't happen, or that the things in them didn't happen. At no point am I contesting that stuff is in the film. I'm contesting its execution and its meaning. And if it worked for you, great. But I feel it didn't work at all, and that's what's causing the disconnect. Other people are feeling that disconnect and you wanna tell them they're wrong to feel it because it's all there. But nobody's saying it isn't there. Just that it's hollow, unaffecting, and basically a character cheat.
also, re: the "It's Supergirl!" thing - why do people want Superman to be Supergirl? (because it's Superman). Why are people jumping at the Supergirl thing? Like, twist for the sake of a twist?
I don't understand, beyond that immediate want, why it would/should be her. I don't get the reason to argue for it.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Ray Fisher answerer and said they are done with reshoots at the panel.
I am very much worried about this film still. First JL big budget movie and I might hate it. Doesn't feel good.
Same. Can't we all just get along and enjoy (or not enjoy) movies without demanding they all follow on style.
Has anyone thrown out the idea that the mystery would be The Eradicator? I mean if they want to play close to the real death and resurrection of Superman, Eradicator resurrected him and if I remember correctly there was a time sensitivity to being able to bring him back.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It's not really a mystery, is the thing. It's just marketing.
It's Superman.
If anything, I'd bet this is a reaction to the Doomsday reveal in the BvS trailers, and how fans got hand-wringy about how "spoilery" that was, despite it being obvious as fuck that Doomsday was going to be in the back third
So this time around, despite how blatantly obvious it's going to be that Superman returns of the last third, they're going to "hide" it in the marketing.
Except now a small number of people are bound and determined to consider that "a mystery" and solve for any other letter but S.
It's Superman.
If anything, I'd bet this is a reaction to the Doomsday reveal in the BvS trailers, and how fans got hand-wringy about how "spoilery" that was, despite it being obvious as fuck that Doomsday was going to be in the back third
So this time around, despite how blatantly obvious it's going to be that Superman returns of the last third, they're going to "hide" it in the marketing.
Except now a small number of people are bound and determined to consider that "a mystery" and solve for any other letter but S.
I mean it thinks its Superman as well (in the Black and Silver suit at that) but its still fun to consider some possible misdirection. Eradicator, GL, Martian Manhunter, something has to happen for Supes resurrection. I'd be really surprised if he just wakes up and bursts out of the his coffin/tomb all on his own.
I do think that hologram looks Supergirlish. Looks to me like they showing some knee and thigh with the high red boots which would be awesome as a launching point for a Supergirl movie too and keep moving forward with DCs push of heroines on the big screen.
elrechazado
Banned
Every single batman movie has batman talking to Gordon, who the turns around and Batman isn't there. In this case, Gordon was with all of the others. They had been talking, shown earlier in the trailer, then turned around, and they all bailed. Flash is new and awkward so he's joking about how he needs to do it too, making the trope a little joke.
Brian_FETO
Banned
I think bigger than Doomsday is the issue of all of their marketing being like "Are You Team Batman? Or Team Superman?"
We all know they team up in the end but at that point the marketing is even like "nah none of this shit matters"
Thanos looks amazing. HE looks huge and menacing. I hope Darkseid looks as good as Thanos does.
elrechazado
Banned
It's literally shown that he saves the world twice, hence the flowers scenes. This blindness really needs to stop.
Re: Supergirl, who said that Superman is Supergirl? There are two things in the trailer people are referencing:
1. A hologram that looks like it could be Supergirl given the skinnier legs. Could get exposition and future world building. Could also easily be Superman.
2. Alfred talking to someone at the end. I think it's clearly Superman since we know he's in the movie, and the sounds accompanying the tremors in the coffee sound exactly like his Sonic booms from the other movies.
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
You make me want to vomit, young man.
Is that like a codename or something? Is she aunt Harriet by day and " Ms Sizzler" by night? Does she have "cookie power" ?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
From the post you just quoted
Me said:
I'm not sure how this is a question. The figure in the hologram is Superman. The figure approaching Alfred is Superman. Superman is in the movie. So people guessing that its actually SUPERGIRL are saying the figure in the hologram and the figure at the end are Supergirl.
But it's not. It's Superman.
It's Superman in the hologram
It's Superman approaching Alfred
It's Superman's theme in the entire back half of the trailer
We all know he's in the movie, you guys. Like, he's been filming shit. We've seen him on set. He was in the initial marketing before they decided to change tack with the marketing campaign. He's still appearing in some licensed product - because he's in the movie.
He's being kept out of the marketing as a cutesy measure more than anything. Buildup to a thing everyone knows that's coming for the sake of enjoying the buildup. It's some WWE shit, really. Which is fun in and of itself if done right.
And I also think it's a reaction to how much the fanbase cried over getting Doomsday in the trailer. People acted like a super-obvious, easy to suss out detail being shown in a trailer was a greivous spoiler, so this time out, they're going to "hide" the super-obvious, easy to suss-out-detail from you, just like you wanted!
Except now that's just an excuse to indulge theories that it's anything but the most obvious thing.
elrechazado
Banned
So you just saying "I don't like this thing" is the continued answer for what was shown but you keep saying wasn't shown. Ok.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
But this is the third time now that I've told you I'm not arguing whether it was there or not. It was there. I'm saying it's not done well at all and that's what's causing the disconnect people are reacting to.
I can't say it wasn't in there and say that I didn't like what it was at the same time. So I'm not. You & Hypocrite keep trying to make that case, but it fails out. I don't know if you're just skipping over it each time, or what, but it's basically impossible to keep insisting I'm either denying or ignoring the details of the film while I'm specifically critiquing those thing's execution. By my critiquing them at all I'm acknowledging their existence.
Again: You & Hypocrite keep wanting to tell people they're wrong for feeling the execution of the elements we all agree were in the film, were done poorly, by telling us "but they're in the movie"
We know they're in the movie.
They're just done poorly. So they don't carry weight. So when Batman references them like they meant something, it doesn't work on us.
Hence the disconnect.
Oooooooh ok, I feel dumb now
With the cut I didn't get it, but it's actually funny, thanks !
elrechazado
Banned
You said multiple times that they told and didn't show, and it's been pointed out 100 times where it was shown. Stop retconning your argument.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
You're misunderstanding "tell, don't show" as a phrase, then. Apologies for not making that clearer.
"Tell, don't show" is basically describing the various narrative & character shortcuts that were applied to the storytelling. It's not a literal delineation between a character talking and a character performing. It doesn't mean "This time Superman didn't say something, but did something. And this time Batman did something, but didn't talk while he did it."
It's an inversion of the "show don't tell" turn of phrase, as a means to highlight how a lot of the status-quo the audience is asked to take as read is being perfunctorily, emptily established in a very hasty manner solely because it needs to be there for the next part of the story to stand on it, not because it was arrived at emotionally by the actions of the characters in the story preceding.
(and to be extra-clear: At no point am I trying to argue those parts of the story don't exist. Just that they weren't earned by the film, as a film)
I'm not retconning my argument as I go - it's the same argument. It's probably easier to note being as you & hypocrite keep quoting the entirety of it every time you answer with one or two lines. But hopefully you understand the usage of "Tell, don't show" within that argument a little better.
It really does seem like what's happening are people saying "I didn't like how all this shit happened, and it didn't work the way it was intended" and you're pointing at the wikipedia bullet point of what happened and saying "but it happened so you're wrong."
Which is going to introduce more than a few disconnects of its own.
"Tell, don't show" is basically describing the various narrative & character shortcuts that were applied to the storytelling. It's not a literal delineation between a character talking and a character performing. It doesn't mean "This time Superman didn't say something, but did something. And this time Batman did something, but didn't talk while he did it."
It's an inversion of the "show don't tell" turn of phrase, as a means to highlight how a lot of the status-quo the audience is asked to take as read is being perfunctorily, emptily established in a very hasty manner solely because it needs to be there for the next part of the story to stand on it, not because it was arrived at emotionally by the actions of the characters in the story preceding.
(and to be extra-clear: At no point am I trying to argue those parts of the story don't exist. Just that they weren't earned by the film, as a film)
I'm not retconning my argument as I go - it's the same argument. It's probably easier to note being as you & hypocrite keep quoting the entirety of it every time you answer with one or two lines. But hopefully you understand the usage of "Tell, don't show" within that argument a little better.
It really does seem like what's happening are people saying "I didn't like how all this shit happened, and it didn't work the way it was intended" and you're pointing at the wikipedia bullet point of what happened and saying "but it happened so you're wrong."
Which is going to introduce more than a few disconnects of its own.
Rollo Tomasi
Member
I still think Flash looks really awkward in that suit. Maybe its just the actor.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yep. Because it rang that emotionally false that I made a joke about it.
I also posted a gif where the 6th member of the Justice League turned out to be the T-Rex from Jurassic Park.
I also suggested that Aquabro was just Legolas after drinking a whole bottle of Axe Body Spray.
To make this relevant to this page's argument: I can understand people not liking my attempts at jokes, but I would never deny that the jokes weren't made by me. They're in there. It's just that people didn't like 'em.
That's exactly what matters. Because that's what's being criticized. It's why there's a disconnect surrounding that line.
elrechazado
Banned
I understand your argument just fine. I disagree with you, as I think it's clear what effect supes saving the world twice from apocalyptic events would have on his perception in universe. Then you also have tons of posts in here from others who are literally saying these things didn't happen.
Either argument or both completely fail to persuade me. Safe to say we can just cordially agree to disagree at this point.
So you are going to "it was a joke" reason? Fair enough.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Cool. Thanks.
Because that post you just referenced was a joke. When further, more serious discussion broke out, long, verbose, multi-syllabic eye-rolling over-explained word vomit came streaming out of my fingertips in a labored effort to further, and more clearly, explain why the sentiment behind the joke was being felt.
Which is where we are now.
Come on, guys...
It's real simple. Batman is a better man because of Superman. He's extrapolating that, saying he was so far gone and Superman saved him - ergo he was a beacon of hope after all.
He's just exaggerating the extent for dramatic effect.
thehypocrite
Member
Yes. That was exactly my point. You and them are wrong with this. You don't "feel" it was earned, however in regards to these films and their portrayal for the character it was consistent. Thus, the lines regarding him are by extension, merited and in line with the universe.
JL might be the only WB movie i see in theaters
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I'm not sure why you're putting quotes around the word feel, and then calling those feelings incorrect.
I get disagreeing with the feelings in question, and normally that'd be enough, right? But that reads more like a flat out dismissal of even the possibility someone might feel that thing honestly.
At which point I dont' think we're even talking about the movie anymore.
You didn't catch WW?
thehypocrite
Member
I'm just disagreeing. Not a dismissal. The quotes are there as a way illustrate the subjective nature of feelings, in hindsight, they were unneeded. I'm not dismissing them, which is why I say you are in the wrong for having them.
I'm with Bobby. The line about Superman being a hopeful figure who made people see the best in themselves made me go, "Really?"
His last two movies didn't sell me on that at all. Seems like Snyder wants to change up Superman into this 'realistic', weight-of-the-world-on-his-shoulders, moody godly figure that largely fails to capture the characteristics of the Superman you'd expect, yet all of a sudden pretend he was that guy all along?
If this is the kind of legacy you wanted his death to leave, why change him up so much in the first place? Could have just given us Superman in the first place and it would have worked out for the better.
His last two movies didn't sell me on that at all. Seems like Snyder wants to change up Superman into this 'realistic', weight-of-the-world-on-his-shoulders, moody godly figure that largely fails to capture the characteristics of the Superman you'd expect, yet all of a sudden pretend he was that guy all along?
If this is the kind of legacy you wanted his death to leave, why change him up so much in the first place? Could have just given us Superman in the first place and it would have worked out for the better.
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
What I imagine is Superman coming back to the John Williams theme in the second half of the 3rd act (last 30 mins or so) It is a fun dream to dream.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I really like the Man of Steel theme though, and I liked that they used it in the trailer. I do hope that Elfman doesn't pitch it up like the trailer did - that theme was written in the same key as Williams' theme, specifically to engender the same sort of heroic feeling (just in a different way).
It occupies the same musical space - it just needs to be deployed in a film correctly. If he comes back, a big, blown-out, "fuck yeah!" version of "What Are You Going to Do When You're Not Saving the World" needs to come with him.
😂😂 I like you, but methinks the DC fans might not like that idea at all.
What do y'all want them to do? Keep the "the world is not ready for Superman" narrative you've always hated? No, MoS and BvS showed that people are not in for Superman having an arc, they want him to be Superman, right now.
They listened. And they're semi retconning Superman to speed up his arc, so when he comes back, he's already "muh Superman".
If they didn't develop his arc fully is your fault, because you've had 7 years calling Superman mopey and depressed and I don't know what else, so they said: "screw it, here's your Superman, and he's been your Superman all along, fine".
It's what you get for not letting Snyder finish his damn trilogy in peace.
They listened. And they're semi retconning Superman to speed up his arc, so when he comes back, he's already "muh Superman".
If they didn't develop his arc fully is your fault, because you've had 7 years calling Superman mopey and depressed and I don't know what else, so they said: "screw it, here's your Superman, and he's been your Superman all along, fine".
It's what you get for not letting Snyder finish his damn trilogy in peace.
mugurumakensei
Member
You seem to be ignoring the fact that he saved billions twice, performed numerous rescues, performed numerous missions for the US government, was largely looked upon as a literal savior barring protesters in DC( if DCverse is anything like the real world, some of those protestors were probably paid by Luthor), Batman, and Luthor. Like you're ignoring almost everything about how Superman is portrayed outside of Luthor's machinations and Bruce's grudge.
Along with what, Supermans biggest conflict in these movies hasn't about whether to do the right thing or not. His conflict has been "what's the right thing when someone is as powerful as he is?".
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
What Are You Going to Do When You're Not Saving the World" and "Flight" are pretty solid and I like the former more as the years have gone on, I just think they used it a little heavy in BvS. Just give me the first 14 secs of the Theme when they first show him and then play whatever you want.
The Driver
Member
Hans Zimme Superman theme is heroic enough.
The One and Done
Member
I'm going to come clean; I've never heard of Steppenwolf before. Have no idea what to expect.
The Driver
Member
Honestly he's Darkseid lite. I'm fully expecting him just to be a goon that wails on the League and vice-versa. He looks powerful as shit though.The One and Done;244272480 said:
Hell yeah. The MoS theme (what will you do when you're not saving the world) in full blast
https://youtube.com/watch?v=pX3coWDnTrU