ymmv said:
Well, at least those answers came from a human being. You seem to be an ok guy juding by those comments. You're not a hardlining fundamentalist, but a moderate. The only real problem is that you're a slave to your religion. You're doing your best to rationalize the crazier aspects of islam, for example your defense of something as horrid as stoning,(oh, those laws are dead letters, no judge will actually condemn women to be stoned) It seems like you realize it's impossible to defend those laws and then you get the poor excuse: if I don't agree with the tenets of the koran, the problem cannot be the koran so it must be me. I simply don't know enough about the islam or else I wouldn't be conflicted about this.
The trouble is you'll be never able to learn enough to reconcile your misgivings because the islam isn't perfect and flawless, it was made by humans. Mohammed wasn't the messenger of god, he was just a guy with a religion he made up at the spot. If the koran was the word of an infallible god, why are there conflicting texts? Why are there abrogated texts? Why are there nasikh that replace mansukh?
Why does the koran contain absurdities about the stars being lamps that the devils use as missiles? Allah turning Jews into apes? What is this nonsense about jinn? The list could go on and on. If you're interested in all the strange facts, contradicitons, etc in the Koran, you should look up
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm. Or try
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles.htm#quran
I can understand you very well when you say Im a slave to my religion, but I must let you know that my point in reading further info about the religion isnt due to me trying my best to rationalize something blindly, but rather to see if there are things that make sense behind it more - ultimately leading to a better understanding of it (gosh I have never used the word understanding so much before in my life.) As for my 'defense' of stoning, maybe I didnt make it clear enough but im not trying to defend stoning and advocate it, im just saying that, within Islam, those who earn such a thing as stoning can only earn it in a very specific manner that is nearly impossible. I just want you to consider the chances of being witnessed by four people + committing adultery + knowing that it can lead to execution before you do it + being a Muslim. When you realize that these four conditions MUST happen in correlation - do you see how hard it is for anyone to earn such a punishment?
By the way, I have heard there are countries which use such a system of punishment in the name of Islam without the use of four witnesses, that is absolutely wrong and I will look into a case or two when I get some free time. But such cases are wrong and barbaric as they follow a system not based on Islam, rather they take advantage of something rooted in Islam and twist it towards a direction they want.
Also, did I say "if you dont agree with the tenets of the Quran then the problem must be you?" If I did, I apologize for I would not have meant it the way it sounded - in actuality, I would actually not find one little thing wrong with you if you put the effort to research a certain ruling in the Quran well - and
then disgaree with it.
I agree that you can never learn enough about a religion - but i think that the more you look into a religion (or even better, religionS) you get a good grasp about things you never imagined about religion before.
As for Islamic belief, it is believed that Muhammad was a messenger who was responsible in delivering the message of Islam. This topic is big in itself, though there are a lot of explanations as to what happened and why in the Quran itself. As for what you stated about infallible texts, the Quran that we use today is the one and only Quran that was ever available - not a single modification as far as Muslims know. There are no newer versions of it ever since its existence. Also, in Islam we believe in the message that Moses and Jesus among others delivered, and as for Muslims, chronologically speaking, the Quran was the last major holy book that came and was never modified since. One of the worst sins that a Muslim can commit is meddle with the Qurans content in any shape or form, and Muslim scholars until this very day continue to look out for the preservation of the Quran. There is a lot of info to be told about the Quran, but rather than focus my efforts solely on this issue, I will discuss the other points you mentioned as well - unless you had some interest in me explaining more points about the Quran (or anything I say, for that matter) - then a PM will do. I am not too familiar with the other stuff you mentioned at the conclusion of your message - but I will, however, tag that link you provided me with, look into it, and get back to you through a PM or so once I do.
Xenon said:
Fady K -
posted out of respect
AmMortal said:
You guys are too kind
RandomVince said:
I do see your point. Some of the myths I listed are for young children to believe in, others are things that people in general used to believe in through older religions (Zeus) or implications of religion (spherical crystals holding the planets in check).
Religion does hold a lot more sway than these myths do, I concede that point. But I do think this would probably have more to do with religion addressing some pretty important human concerns that are yet to be addressed by any other philosophy to such an extent. The sorts of issues Im thinking of are ones such as fear of death, fear of loss, need for community, the need to feel important etc.
But just to go back briefly to the point you (rightly) raise about age - how many parents tell their kids that the tooth fairy is make believe? No-one says that about gods. I think children get ingrained with religion, and most dont critically think about it. I personally think religion should wait til one is old enough to make up their own mind if they want to believe or not.
I very much agree with what you say in the paragraph, and its quite interesting honestly. And I -especially- agree with you that many people who believe in religion take it for granted - I know many people around me just like that. I think it wasnt too long ago when I decided to look into the stuff myself rather than just listen to what people tell me - and my God what a difference it made. I felt like I lived a lie to tell you the truth - not saying my belief is right and yours is wrong - im saying that the amount of stuff I learned in contradiction to what I was tought was mindblowing. And btw - I also agree with how you say it is better to look at religious matters when one is old enough to decide and compare based on what info is available. I think this whole post of yours is full of sense, interesting, and amazing. Good read man
EviLore said:
I don't care what religion you believe in or what your religion requires of you, if you come on NeoGAF and defend wifebeating as an acceptable practice you're getting kicked out.
EviLore, you are 100% correct in what you say. But please let me tell you that Islam does
not defend wifebeating in anyway, and what castle007 was referring to when a Muslim husband is permitted to hit his wife (lightly, and NOT on the face which isnt allowed whatever the circumstance) is at SUCH an outrageous situation that it simply wouldnt happen. What would drive a GOOD man to hit his wife? Certainly nothing, right? And as far as I know, none of the Muslims I know who *follow* Islam has EVER had to resort to that, and dont plan to either. You must realize that this is a case considered at a terribly EXTREME rate that is NEAR-IMPOSSIBLE. And just to let you know, unlike the popular misconception that many believe, Islam puts the role of women at a higher level than men can EVER achieve - specially mothers and wives. Since we spoke about this "wife beating" matter in a manner that caused you to think the way you did in your post that im replying to - Im sorry if it caused any misunderstanding, im just here to let you know that Islam condemns the abuse of women in every way, and discourages the beating of a wife except on an extreme level that, if you actually saw just how extreme, youd realize that youd most likely have had to marry a sick psychopath for a wife in order for you to beat her "once" and NOT on the face. I hope I made the idea of how it is in Islam clearer to you.
Cheeto said:
Wow. I feel sorry for whomever you marry.
There's a big difference from using force to disapline a child, and using force to "disapline" an ADULT woman. The idea of disaplining an adult is belittling to begin with even without physical force.
Just read my reply to EviLore. "youd most likely have had to marry a sick psychopath for a wife in order for you to beat her "once" and NOT on the face" - at a situation like THAT, then Id feel sorry for him, not his wife. But what are the chances of us marrying someone like that who will also piss us off to such a point that it breaks our control down? Not very likely. At all. And besides, "disciplining" of adult woman doesnt start with hitting in Islam AT ALL. It is a LAST resort that barely ANYONE would ever reach - if anyone ever reached it at all from the true followers of the religion. Sure you have some dumb pieces of shits who supposedly are Muslim that abuse such a ruling and somehow pretend that hitting is permitted outright. But its not. Actually, youd fall asleep while reading just how MUCH you have to discipline your wife through kindness and tenderness in Islam. "Hitting women" is out of the question in a less-than-one-truly-messed-up marriage which I hope none of us in GAF go through - and would be even rare in such a case. So to sum up - Islam does not encourage the abuse of a spouse or a woman in ANY way.
TheHeretic said:
A womans testimony is worth half of a mans under Sharia law. It doesn't apply to men "just the same" at all, and I judge it because I do know it.
I dont mean to sound like a smartass - not my intention I came off as one - but can you show me proof of this since you know it?
TheHeretic said:
You are a fucking disgrace. You've single handedly set your religion back a thousands years for everyone and anyone who read that.
Please read my reply to Evilore.
moe_81 said:
The treatment of women has less to do with Islamic religion and more to do with Islamic culture. Real Talk.
Yes. A lot of the negative stuff people believe is about Islam is rooted in the culture of some Muslims which is WRONG and not Islamic religion itself.
jett said:
Hitting women?
...
Fuck your religion.
Jett, you're talking about another religion here. Islam is nothing about hitting women, and doesnt encourage it. If you get the time, read through the explanations, and not just the "hit women", cause otherwise you would be looking at a completely different and wrong picture of the religion.
Morph-0 said:
Its not surprising that you think the Quran is full of absurdities when you visit website such as those you have posted links to. These sites have deliberate and corrupt motives as is shown by the amount of bullshit posted on them, clearly they do not understand certain aspects of Islam but nor do they want to, some of the posts made on these sites look like they have been written by college drop outs. If you seek answers then please take your questions to an Imam who is educated and will be able to explain the real answers to the questions you still have then you will not be confused.
Punishments like stoning are meant to serve as a clear deterrent so as to reinforce the seriousness of the crime and our understand on this matter will be different if you are from the branch that does not see such crimes as serious. It is important to remember that if you don't commit the crime you have nothing to fear nor worry about.
As for women's rights Islam was in fact the first religion to give women proper rights please watch the following lecture it is long but you will learn much, it really kicks off at around 24 minutes in please see
here
There is no radical or moderate Islam, their is Islam and not Islam. Radical is not Islam.
WOW. Your post is so damn awesome!! And thanks for the link - HOPEFULLY people who are not aware of it will give it a watch sometime!
TheHeretic said:
To summarise, the only people who can understand the Koran are those who have already bought into the religion and Islam was progressive 1300 years ago in regards to womens rights.
Welcome to the 21st Century, we've come a long way.
I would think this is a fitting answer:
m0dus said:
Well, I'd argue that after reading the rather caustic back-and-forth in this thread, maybe not as long a way as you think . . .
And TheHeretic, religion was not designed to be changed through time. So heck, 25th century even? No problem. Religion is not supposed to change through time - SURE, peoples thoughts do change, but the religion doesnt. Because Islam wasnt designed exclusively for when it was first introduced, it was designed as something to guide Muslims of all generations.
BTW Modus thanks for the article.
Nsider said:
Quote:
A SALAMOU ALEIKOUM
thank's for you message BRO , im muslim to , INCHAALAH we gona change the song , GOD BLESS US
Toumani Diabaté
Grammy Award
He sounds like a great guy.
Is he changing it??? And was it your message that he replied to??? If so holy shit, that was unexpected at all! Now im definitely starting to think he didnt know about the using of verses being wrong before