Doug Heffernan
Member
No, one uninformed person at Microsoft thought that they owned Donkey Kong; not the whole company.
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Looking back at Rare's production with Microsoft
- Thread starter Doug Heffernan
- Start date
No, one uninformed person at Microsoft thought that they owned Donkey Kong; not the whole company.
makingmusic476
Member
I've always wondered, how did the gaming community take to Microsoft's acquisition of Rare? Were there rumblings beforehand, so it was met with little surprise? Were people angry? What were the politics behind it all?
I mean, if deals like Tomb Raider can cause so much ire, I can only imagine what MS nabbing a giant like Rare would've caused. But that all happened several years before I started paying attention to the industry side of gaming.
I mean, if deals like Tomb Raider can cause so much ire, I can only imagine what MS nabbing a giant like Rare would've caused. But that all happened several years before I started paying attention to the industry side of gaming.
As a Nintendo only owner at the time I was pretty angry and frustrated that Rare was leaving Nintendo to work on a new console exclusively. Didn't visit much online forums at the time though so I don't know how others reacted.
Iva Demilcol
Member
Well, according to Jim Sterling, Rare made the best looking game of the past generation 
Electret
Member
That's extremely cool. Would you consider expounding on your experience with the game? Any impressions you remember would be awesome.
TheFLYINGManga_Ka
Member
I thought Perfect Dark Zero was considered a major disappointment?
ChosenPredator
Banned
why? KI is amazing. I feel people are just going to hate to hate but RARE will make a comeback or it's older games will make a return
Triggerhappytel
Member
Kind of amazing that Perfect Dark sold under a third of Goldeneye, despite being technically amazing at the time and more highly-rated. That's one they should have probably delayed until the Gamecube, but who's to say that would have helped.
people are incredibly tough on rare.
give them a break… and a chance to do great again.
they've lost a lot of high profile staff that contributed to their prestigious history, but lets wait and see what they do next, moving forward.
i still believe rare can make great games. i don't actually believe rare ever stopped making quality, to be honest. there's dips here & there, but almost all companies have 'dips'.
their greatest difficulty and challenge is making games exclusively for a platform that is barely receptive to their primary demographic and the majority of their franchises.
KI has done pretty well. it's no surprise though; it was a well made game that visually matches the demographic that mircosoft specialises in.
for rare to be successful again, they unfortunately need to abandon their traditional/historical art style and make games geared (no pun) towards what sells on the platform.
platformers, kart racers, or any kind of game they've been successful with in the past that focused on anthropomorphic animals will do poorly, unfortunately.
for all of microsoft's savvy in the teen male market, they're completely outmatched by their competitors on how to attract the younger demographics.
fingerrs crossed, because rare deserve unquestionable success after the pr 'poo-flinigng' they've copped over the years.
give them a break… and a chance to do great again.
they've lost a lot of high profile staff that contributed to their prestigious history, but lets wait and see what they do next, moving forward.
i still believe rare can make great games. i don't actually believe rare ever stopped making quality, to be honest. there's dips here & there, but almost all companies have 'dips'.
their greatest difficulty and challenge is making games exclusively for a platform that is barely receptive to their primary demographic and the majority of their franchises.
KI has done pretty well. it's no surprise though; it was a well made game that visually matches the demographic that mircosoft specialises in.
for rare to be successful again, they unfortunately need to abandon their traditional/historical art style and make games geared (no pun) towards what sells on the platform.
platformers, kart racers, or any kind of game they've been successful with in the past that focused on anthropomorphic animals will do poorly, unfortunately.
for all of microsoft's savvy in the teen male market, they're completely outmatched by their competitors on how to attract the younger demographics.
fingerrs crossed, because rare deserve unquestionable success after the pr 'poo-flinigng' they've copped over the years.
OverdriveOtaku
Member
This. Seeing Conker being available in Project Spark is a step in the right direction.
ToyMachine228
Member
I will mimic what many others have said in that there is hardly anyone left over from Rare's Nintendo days and that the developer has changed significantly. That said, I still think they can make some great games with the IPs that they have, they just need the funding and direction.
I'd really love to see a new Conker, Banjo, Pinata or even another Grabbed by the Ghoulies. Microsoft absolutely does not need them on the Perfect Dark franchise.
I'd really love to see a new Conker, Banjo, Pinata or even another Grabbed by the Ghoulies. Microsoft absolutely does not need them on the Perfect Dark franchise.
Well you can't really blame microsoft. Rare made some great games under their leadership, Conker Reloaded/Kameo/Viva Pinata/Nuts & Bolts were all amazing games imo (I even liked PDZ) and would probably have been embraced on a Nintendo platform. But on xbox noone wanted to buy them apparently.
MS didn't even really cage them, I mean nuts and bolts and viva pinata were super risky/experimental products. After a lot of financial flops they let them do kinect sports and apparently that's what the people wanted (best selling rare game under ms). So it's kind of understandable why they did 2 follow ups. Now that Rivals finally flopped hard, they are free to do the other stuff again. Maybe this time consumers will reward them with actually buying the games.
one can only hope....
MS didn't even really cage them, I mean nuts and bolts and viva pinata were super risky/experimental products. After a lot of financial flops they let them do kinect sports and apparently that's what the people wanted (best selling rare game under ms). So it's kind of understandable why they did 2 follow ups. Now that Rivals finally flopped hard, they are free to do the other stuff again. Maybe this time consumers will reward them with actually buying the games.
one can only hope....
Really quite poor to be honest, especially given their legacy. The best game they've come out with since, funnily enough also a new IP, is Viva Piñata imo.
Contrary to what some are saying, I do think a large part of the blame is on Microsoft. How many countless concepts of RARE's did they can? Some of them sounded amazing as well. I don't think RARE was ever one of those developers where suits should even attempt to persuade, mould or shape. You just let them make whatever they want, the way they want.
Contrary to what some are saying, I do think a large part of the blame is on Microsoft. How many countless concepts of RARE's did they can? Some of them sounded amazing as well. I don't think RARE was ever one of those developers where suits should even attempt to persuade, mould or shape. You just let them make whatever they want, the way they want.
Well they made as many games as they could. They actually made more games then most outher studios in the timeframe. They just created a ton of concepts and could only create so many of those. It's not like we could have gotten more games from rare. If you look at the output they were probably pushing as hard as they can to get so many games out there.
And if Viva Pinata or Nuts and Bolts didn't happen and were on the list of the canned projects people would say damn those were great concepts, why didn't ms let them do those instead of just another kart racer....
Let's look at Nuts and Bolts:
Graphics: great, it looked vibrant, colorful and fun
Gameplay: New, and exciting with innovation pumping out everywhere. It was geniunly fun to ride your own created rides. The "overworld" was great, the tasks you had to undertake with your vehicles were great. The pull of getting new parts to create better vehicles was constant and strong.
Characters: Everyone loves Banjo!
Still people didn't buy it for some reason I can't understand. MS took a chance here, just as they did with viva pinata 1 + 2 and grabbed by the ghoulies (PDZ and Kameo were more traditional console games)
If you want rare to make good, creative, and innovative games, buy the good, creative, and innovative games rare makes!
Salty Hippo
Member
Because Microsoft thought it was smarter to invest almost all of their marketing budget to promote a game that wasn't even their own IP at the time and would sell a ton anyway (Gears 2). That's what NB and VP2 had to compete with. They flop, obviously, and MS goes like "okay guys, this is not working out, go make something different, here's a new gimmicky piece of shit, go fetch a slice of that loyal Wii userbase."
All this happened while Spencer was head of Microsoft Game Studios. And before that, he was the general manager of all european studios. So Rare has always been bossed by this guy, which means he's largely responsible for their mismanagement over the past decade. But somehow people now think he is the knight in shining armor that will save Rare from all evil.
Anyone who didn't buy nuts and bolts or vivav pinata (which had a big big big marketing push btw. it even got its own tv show) is largely responsible here imo. But of course it's easier to say, yeah ms is to blame...
Btw. on what planet is gears of war competing with banjo and pinata? Is there a person on this planet that was undecided if they should get nuts and bolts or gears 2? Those games are just waaaaay too different to make a case for competition between those two being the problem....
Green Yoshi
Member
Jet Force Gemini 2
Blast Corps HD
Mickey's Speedway USA 2
As far as I remember Donkey Kong was very well known before Donkey Kong Country. Did he think the arcade game was made by Rare?
Blast Corps HD
Mickey's Speedway USA 2
As far as I remember Donkey Kong was very well known before Donkey Kong Country. Did he think the arcade game was made by Rare?
PanicFreak
Member
I completely disagree. Rare could make the games they specialize in and do well selling them all digitally for 20 to 40 bucks per title. They should be putting out at least one title a year.
That's what they did with Kinect Sports Gems. I could easily see them doing some other casual title like that again, would make sense as that's where Rare's strengths nowadays lie.
Doug Heffernan
Member
Agreed. At Microsoft they've had 3 different years where they put out 2 titles in one year (2005, 2006, 2008). One game a year is not too much to ask.
Edit: It was actually 3 titles in 2005, 1 in 2006
Oh no, I mean Sabreman, the GBA game. Not Sabreman Stampede, sorry for the confusion.
Nightengale
Member
How many people/team do they have right now?
Because bar very distinct team structures, the days of a big-budget, high quality title being released annually by a single studio is dead.
Aeriscloud
Banned
I need a new Viva Pinata in my life.
Doug Heffernan
Member
Based on past few years it looks like only one team.
That group of people they laid off recently could have been a smaller internal team but who knows?
PanicFreak
Member
In this economy? You'd be hard pressed to find people who have been at any company for 15+ years.
Back then the studio was larger and comprised several teams. With KS, they only had one big team.
possibly.
but "do well" in what context? and why do they need to be sold at a lesser price compared to most games?
also, by relegating their games to digital only, aren't they essentially admitting defeat on the xbox retail landscape?
and as gamers, by advising them to back peddle and make download-only titles, are we not confirming that their games cannot hold their own at retail anymore?
the point is: the games rare have traditionally made in the past are still viable retail games that have potential to sell well (as shown by other similar multi platform games in genres they're great at) just not on the platform they have to make them on.
OR, rare changes tactics and makes games that WILL sell on xbox.
i have no idea why, for example, they haven't made another perfect dark since the launch of the 360. pdz sold fairly well, correct?
i have no idea why a new KI was only made recently, when games like SF4 have proven years before, that there is a viable market for this genre; especially on xbox.
no one's doing anything with the james bond licence anymore. why doesn't MS give it back to rare and see what they can do with it?
racing games do great on xbox. how about a new RC pro am title in the vein of the 'v-rally' series?
or how about completely new franchises tailored to the tastes of the xbox user base?
western rpgs? a 3rd person shooter? maybe a new fantasy shooter? their own line of sports titles? simulation racers?
Fuck yes hahaNo, man Rare died back in 2002 when Microsoft open that wallet.
Miles Quaritch
Member
But Rare released some of their best games between 2005 -2008...
Salty Hippo
Member
They were exclusive games released in the same period in 2008. So yeah, in a sense they competed for space and sales. There are people who play more than one genre.
As for the "big marketing push", check this out: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/rare-questions-pinata-marketing
SaucyJack
Member
Do our American cousins understand the double entendre in this title, or is it just a Brit thing?
Goolies is a slang term for testicle
Iva Demilcol
Member
I read that on TVtropes. :V
Exploratory
Banned
Isn't Rares best selling game a Kinect game?
Anyway they've been mishandled. well it makes sense to go after that Kinect money they should have had another team developing games as well.
Anyway they've been mishandled. well it makes sense to go after that Kinect money they should have had another team developing games as well.
Doug Heffernan
Member
Surprisingly, yes.
It sold more than a million copies and has an 81 on Metacritic.
I couldn't believe it either...
PanicFreak
Member
I think they can be a successful developer that doesn't need to lay people off and may stumble into a mega hit. I don't think they would be selling games at a lesser price, in fact selling an all digital game for $40 bucks would be about twice as much as most games.
Yes I am saying that they are defeated in the retail only space but that has nothing to do with the Xbox's market. Games like Skylanders do well on the Xbox so a game that Rare puts out could also do well. The problem as I see it is that they will have to go through a lot of ideas to find on that sticks with the audience. Microsoft and Rare would be smarter to have them make five $10 million budget games with prominent dashboard treatment than to make one game that costs $20 million with a $30 million marketing budget.
If one of those games should catch on, they make a sequel with a larger budget. The model I'm envisioning is a model that is similar to Undead Labs but Rare would have the budget and the creative freedom to try new things.
The problem I see with Rare is that most people believe that its best days are behind it. To prove them wrong, you don't go out and create a mega-huge budget game that could sink the company, you start from scratch and build from the bottom up. Their old IPs don't hold any water in today's retail market and baring a very innovative re-branding similar to Skylanders, I don't see much value outside of the KI reboot model. They just don't have very many core franchises.
I'm not sure I agree. How many AAA platformers sold well on the PS3? I can't think of any. The only ones that sell well have the name "Mario" and "Skylanders" attached to them. I'm not even sure Skylanders would be popular if it weren't for the toy tie-in.
I don't think they should just start thinking about making a third parson shooter because that's what has sold well on the Xbox. They should think long and hard about their core competencies and build from there.
Doug Heffernan
Member
Didn't TIP and N&B launch at $40?
That didn't really help sales all that much unfortunately.
Microsoft could have done more to promote those games though.
Cygnus X-1
Member
The problem is that Rare without Nintendo is just another studio. Under Microsoft, and with key staff leaving continuously, it turned even worse with time.
Storm Raider
Banned
And continued to make great games after.
Triggerhappytel
Member
Colonel Mustard
Banned
On one hand, I really miss Rare's output. On the other hand, some of their talent are now working on really promising looking indie games for the Wii U/PC.
So all hope isn't lost.
So all hope isn't lost.
Rare's production during these years was actually far greater than just what they release on Xbox consoles. Here's every game that released from them since 2002:
GAMECUBE
-Starfox Adventures
XBOX
-Grabbed by the Ghoulies
-Conker: Live and Reloaded
XBOX 360
-Kameo: Elements of Power
-Perfect Dark Zero
-Viva Pinata
-Jetpac Refuelled
-Viva Pinata: Trouble in Paradise
-Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts
-Banjo-Kazooie HD (Assisted Develpment)
-Banjo-Tooie HD (Assisted Development)
-Perfecf Dark HD (Assisted Development)
-Kinect Sports
-Kinect Sports: Season Two
-Kinect Sports Gems
XBOX ONE
-Kinect Sports Rivals
GAMEBOY ADVANCE
-Banjo-Kazooie: Grunty's Revenge
-Banjo Pilot
-Sabrewulf
-It's Mr. Pants
-Donkey Kong Country
-Donkey Kong Country 2
-Donkey Kong Country 3
NINTENDO DS
-Diddy Kong Racing DS
-Viva Pinata: Pocket Paradise
FAR ALONG CANCELLED PROJECTS
-Goldeneye 007 HD
-Sabreman Stampede
That is a lot of games to develop and release in just 12 years. Much more than most studios. That's also not including all of the prototypes within that timeframe. Had Rare not suffered the layoffs post Nuts & Bolts and not had their handheld team disbanded, then I'm convinced we would have seen even more by now.
EDIT: May I also add that that they created the Avatars and was largely response for prototyping/ R&D for Kinect as well.
GAMECUBE
-Starfox Adventures
XBOX
-Grabbed by the Ghoulies
-Conker: Live and Reloaded
XBOX 360
-Kameo: Elements of Power
-Perfect Dark Zero
-Viva Pinata
-Jetpac Refuelled
-Viva Pinata: Trouble in Paradise
-Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts
-Banjo-Kazooie HD (Assisted Develpment)
-Banjo-Tooie HD (Assisted Development)
-Perfecf Dark HD (Assisted Development)
-Kinect Sports
-Kinect Sports: Season Two
-Kinect Sports Gems
XBOX ONE
-Kinect Sports Rivals
GAMEBOY ADVANCE
-Banjo-Kazooie: Grunty's Revenge
-Banjo Pilot
-Sabrewulf
-It's Mr. Pants
-Donkey Kong Country
-Donkey Kong Country 2
-Donkey Kong Country 3
NINTENDO DS
-Diddy Kong Racing DS
-Viva Pinata: Pocket Paradise
FAR ALONG CANCELLED PROJECTS
-Goldeneye 007 HD
-Sabreman Stampede
That is a lot of games to develop and release in just 12 years. Much more than most studios. That's also not including all of the prototypes within that timeframe. Had Rare not suffered the layoffs post Nuts & Bolts and not had their handheld team disbanded, then I'm convinced we would have seen even more by now.
EDIT: May I also add that that they created the Avatars and was largely response for prototyping/ R&D for Kinect as well.
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