• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

LOST 06.17/18/18.5: "The End" (Everything Else Was Just Progress)

Status
Not open for further replies.

C.Dark.DN

Banned
I have a feeling you would think Avatar sucked. Not a word from you in there there. Why not debate there for a month? It's the highest grossing movie of all time.

I got a better idea. New movies are the holy grail for nit picking. They release monthly. They have a lot of active people who support it and people who hate it. Things get heated and lengthily.

A person who likes to nitpick plot holes and the writing of things they dislike would be all over this this. Such a low time investment. The whole movie is on the top of everyone's mind.

Inception, Scott Pilgrim, and Expendables are really hot threads right now. IIRC, I skimmed across a pretty heated plot whole debate in Inception especially.

I don't see one post from you in those threads tho... what a pitty.
 

Erigu

Member
DeathNote said:
I have a feeling you would think Avatar sucked.
'Didn't go and see it. 'Not interested.

Not a word from you in there there. Why not debate there for a month? It's the highest grossing movie of all time.
It's also just another blockbuster like there will always be blockbusters.
I'm more concerned about the current state of science fiction on US television and the low standards the Lost writers have been reinforcing for years...
 

C.Dark.DN

Banned
Erigu said:
'Didn't go and see it. 'Not interested.


It's also just another blockbuster like there will always be blockbusters.
I'm more concerned about the current state of science fiction on US television and the low standards the Lost writers have been reinforcing for years...
Avatar is science fiction. The film industry is a great place to criticize science ficiton. It's something to dislike and nitpick like Lost. I don't see the issue. You said you enjoyed doing it and emphasize science fiction.

Science ficiton in TV shows eh? Stargate Universe was 70% hate and 30% like. That's a really great show to nitpick. Extremely great. No posts from you there lately or at all either.. and it's all on DVD.

A person into TV show sci-fi should have watched that.

Caprica is another great sci-fi to nitpick. No dice with you there either.

I figured it out.

You have aspergers. You obsess over Lost. Hours upon hours a day. That's right isn't it?
 

Erigu

Member
DeathNote said:
Avatar is science fiction.
I dunno, it looks like Dances with Smurfs.

Science ficiton in TV shows eh? Stargate Universe was 70% hate and 30% like. That's a really great show to nitpick. Extremely great.
Not nearly as overrated as Lost.

I figured it out.
You have aspergers. You obsess over Lost. Hours upon hours a day. That's right isn't it?
Why, that must be it, DeathNote.
 
Erigu said:
I dunno, it looks like Dances with Smurfs.


Not nearly as overrated as Lost.


Why, that must be it, DeathNote.

The science in Avatar is some of the strongest Sci-fi in the past decade.

Also, this guy is an obvious troll, probably not worth anyone's time.
 
SpeedingUptoStop said:
This is basically my point. I don't understand, it benefits no one. No one's opinion is going to change with this approach, on either side. It's just a nuisance that persists for no reason.

And the thing is, we've heard pretty much every side from the naysayers... every... side... ad... nauseum... and while I see some of their points and can even sympathize with a few of them, they don't even begin to drill into my love of the story. It's not a matter of being stubborn and refusing not to like it despite valid points being made either. If any of these people who didn't like the show gave me a hardcore and objective reason to rethink my love for it as a whole, I might.

I'm also going to play this card, too, even though I'm not a fan of playing it, but sometimes one must yank it out from beneath the sleeve when things get dirty. Before I continue, no, this in no way applies to everyone who doesn't like the show. No way. People can think for themselves and I trust that they're intelligent enough to not enjoy it. That being said, based on certain things and certain negative points I read sometimes, I gotta say, I don't fully believe that everyone "gets" Lost. By that, I mean, Lost was created in the same style and craft as big, old-school adventure stories like Swiss Family Robinson, Indiana Jones, and the like and I simply don't think some people really understand or have any appreciation for this style of narration.

If this reminds you of the post I made in the Emmys thread about how Michael Giacchino's music is bold and in-your-face epic and gorgeous for a reason, well yes, I'm saying this in the exact same frame of mind because the scoring applies to it as well. You have shows that most of the Lost haters consider incredible, like The Wire or Breaking Bad or Mad Men. I haven't seen them, but from what I know, they're likely more down to earth and more "realistic" than Lost; seeing as Lost is about people who were brought to a mysterious island on an airplane in hopes that one of them can protect a magical light that needs to be protected, yeah, those other shows are likely very much more realistic and probably not supernatural or fantasy-based.

But Lost is. That's just the kind of show it is. Lost is to Mad Men as what Lord of the Rings or Star Wars is to American Beauty. One thing is huge, bold, over-the top and the other is far more grounded. The same thing applies to the acting. This isn't some down to earth city-focused show about crime and justice or whatever they might be about; Lost in its very essence is escapism and that's why people like it. Again it's in the same exact spirit as your classic adventure tales. It's made to be fun, mysterious, emotional, and to give nerds tons of things to discuss and the exact same can be said for something like Star Wars. The Star Wars movies aren't particularly well-acted, not even the originals, but people love them because the story was timeless as were the characters. Mark Hamill didn't turn in an Oscar-nominated performance, but it was good, and people loved him and his character.

I just think a lot of naysayers are so wrapped up in what they believe to be more poignant, real-life, and mature television/films; I guarantee someone who doesn't like Lost would be a person who thought The Hurt Locker should have won the Oscar instead of Avatar. I'd seriously bet a considerable sum on that. The Hurt Locker deals with what I suppose are real issues that soldiers have to deal with, but it didn't interest me in the slightest because I couldn't relate-- whereas Avatar, while not sporting a super-original plot, had colorful and likeable characters that I personally cared way more about than some asshole with no character development at all (Jeremy Renner) who keeps going back for more. Now some of you may be on the disagreement side of this; it did win best picture and plenty of you loved it. This is just what I thought; merely my opinion. I prefer things that don't necessarily remind me of real-life situations because I think one of the best things to come out of the film medium is the idea that you can sit down and watch something and get completely absorbed and just forget about the stresses of everyday life. Shows like Mad Men don't interest me because the cast reminds me of all the massive dicks I've had to deal with at jobs before and I could just care less about them or that story-- though I don't deny it's quality whatsoever, it's not my thing, plain and simple.

But Lost is. Lost was something I could watch, get interested in, ponder the secrets, ponder the fates of characters, tie together some of the great symbolism, be incredibly moved by Giacchino's beautiful and "overpowering" score, guess how this finale is going to play out or what we're going to learn in the next premiere, pray to god that our favorite characters won't be killed off, wait to find out what something is or what something means, and the list goes on far past the horizon. It's not perfect, and I don't need it to be. Not every facet was super well thought-out. But most were. Like Star Wars, and similar stories like it, Lost is just fun, engaging, heartfelt, and timeless, and that's all I need it to be.

Erigu said:
I dunno, it looks like Dances with Smurfs.

I am so good at this.
 

Erigu

Member
Scullibundo said:
The science in Avatar is some of the strongest Sci-fi in the past decade.
Like I said, I haven't seen the movie... but I kinda doubt that.


brandonh83 said:
You have shows that most of the Lost haters consider incredible, like The Wire or Breaking Bad or Mad Men. I haven't seen them
[insert obligatory recommendation here]

but from what I know, they're likely more down to earth and more "realistic" than Lost; seeing as Lost is about people who were brought to a mysterious island on an airplane in hopes that one of them can protect a magical light that needs to be protected, yeah, those other shows are likely very much more realistic and probably not supernatural or fantasy-based.
Hmmmwell yeah, but if anything, I'm more of a fan of supernatural and fantasy-based stuff, actually.
In fact, that's one of the reasons why the Lost writers irk me so much: it looks like they're using that as an excuse for poor storytelling. "Come on, the show is about a magical island that can move, and you're going to criticize it because you don't think the characters' motivations make much sense?" Er... Well, yeah?

It's made to be fun, mysterious, emotional, and to give nerds tons of things to discuss and the exact same can be said for something like Star Wars. The Star Wars movies aren't particularly well-acted, not even the originals, but people love them because the story was timeless as were the characters. Mark Hamill didn't turn in an Oscar-nominated performance, but it was good, and people loved him and his character.
I get what you're saying, but it seems to me that the showrunners (as well as a whole bunch of fans) are selling Lost as a lot more than just "good, fun, mindless escapism".
I mean, are there actually people out there who defend the Star Wars movies by saying something like "it's just too deep, complex and spiritual for you, so it went over your head!"?
... OK, don't answer that: there probably are.
But hopefully, you see what I'm getting at. I've seen a lot of people saying "man, this is unlike any other TV show out there: it's like literature!", and I'm like "waitwhat? is that because they're flashing book covers every chance they get?"
 
The difference is that I'm not using the fun/silly stuff as a negative; the show definitely has some seriousness about it and there are very emotional moments, but it's definitely science fiction and I don't think they use that as an excuse at all; I certainly wasn't using it as any sort of excuse. I brought it up because it has something to do with the style of the performances and the storytelling.

Also, Lost is not literature. No television show, or even film, is. I can't answer for those people who talk about Star Wars or Lost on a level that they probably aren't; I'm a huge fan of both but I know my limits.
 

Erigu

Member
brandonh83 said:
The difference is that I'm not using the fun/silly stuff as a negative
I'm not either, sorry if it sounded that way. I like Star Wars, as it happens ('can't say I'm thrilled by the... er... "recent developments", but yeah).

the show definitely has some seriousness about it and there are very emotional moments, but it's definitely science fiction and I don't think they use that as an excuse at all; I certainly wasn't using it as any sort of excuse. I brought it up because it has something to do with the style of the performances and the storytelling.
Well, I wouldn't expect Academy Award-worthy performances from characters of a show like that, if that's what bothers you.

No, what annoyed me was... Well, the writing was shit. On so many levels.
I'm not sure how I can get involved in the action when it makes no sense to me. "They can't let the bad guy leave the island, because... I dunno? Because he's a smoke monster, maybe? Is that it? Is he really going to kill everybody, just for the sake of it? Or is it that his escape will somehow cause the end of the world? Oh, wait, he wants to destroy the island, now. That's new. But why?"
I'm not sure how I can root for the characters when their main "motivations" could be summed up by "it has to happen: the writers want it to happen, it's in the script!" Some actual, decent arcs would be nice. Not that "well, shit, the island cured my legs, I saw a magical light, had prophetic dreams, and there was that video of a scientist saying that the island had unique properties... but I saw that other video that says it's all BS, so I guess I'll believe that one over everything else and have my crisis of faith, now!" crap.

Also, Lost is not literature. No television show, or even film, is.
I'm not even entirely sure what that's supposed to mean. Those people apparently use "literature" as a compliment. I don't know. It's a format.
If the idea is that it's a loooong story ("with a beginning, a middle and an end", as I often see)... well, yeah, but it's not exactly the first of its kind? Nor the most consistent one, far from it. In that sense, when I see that kind of comment about the Wire (it happens), I guess I'm less "huh?", because each season does "work" as its own story and really feels "planned out" (whether it really was is another matter)...
 

duckroll

Member
You guys have about 80+ posts or so after this one before the thread is locked. Someone should really be making a new thread if you want to continue discussing the series in general since it ended a while ago. It's not like anyone is really just discussing the final episode specifically here. :p
 
Shit just got real

Maybe we can make a "rule" where Erigu cant cross into the new thread and he can spend all his time looking for his loophole.
 

Erigu

Member
duckroll said:
Someone should really be making a new thread if you want to continue discussing the series in general since it ended a while ago. It's not like anyone is really just discussing the final episode specifically here. :p
True.


Drealmcc0y said:
Maybe we can make a "rule" where Erigu cant cross into the new thread and he can spend all his time looking for his loophole.
Yeah, we wouldn't want discussions between opposing points of view, would we?
 

Feep

Banned
On the road to fifteen thousand!

I made a John Locke reference to my students (aged 16, mostly) today and no one got it. = (
 
Erigu said:
I'm not either, sorry if it sounded that way. I like Star Wars, as it happens ('can't say I'm thrilled by the... er... "recent developments", but yeah).


Well, I wouldn't expect Academy Award-worthy performances from characters of a show like that, if that's what bothers you.

No, what annoyed me was... Well, the writing was shit. On so many levels.
I'm not sure how I can get involved in the action when it makes no sense to me. "They can't let the bad guy leave the island, because... I dunno? Because he's a smoke monster, maybe? Is that it? Is he really going to kill everybody, just for the sake of it? Or is it that his escape will somehow cause the end of the world? Oh, wait, he wants to destroy the island, now. That's new. But why?"
I'm not sure how I can root for the characters when their main "motivations" could be summed up by "it has to happen: the writers want it to happen, it's in the script!" Some actual, decent arcs would be nice. Not that "well, shit, the island cured my legs, I saw a magical light, had prophetic dreams, and there was that video of a scientist saying that the island had unique properties... but I saw that other video that says it's all BS, so I guess I'll believe that one over everything else and have my crisis of faith, now!" crap.


I'm not even entirely sure what that's supposed to mean. Those people apparently use "literature" as a compliment. I don't know. It's a format.
If the idea is that it's a loooong story ("with a beginning, a middle and an end", as I often see)... well, yeah, but it's not exactly the first of its kind? Nor the most consistent one, far from it. In that sense, when I see that kind of comment about the Wire (it happens), I guess I'm less "huh?", because each season does "work" as its own story and really feels "planned out" (whether it really was is another matter)...
I seriously love you. Everything you say is exactly what i think... if i could be assed to write down my criticisms anymore. Don't take notice of them calling you a troll. I appreciate all your comments.

I honestly don't see this sense of sweeping, epic fun you do brandon and you're emphatically wrong on the point of Lost haters disliking the show because of the inherent silliness of much of its premise. I love a heap of genre shows. My favourites right now might happen to be stuff like Mad Men and Breaking Bad, but it has nothing to do with their lack of sci-fi or supernatural elements. Even BB has a kind of quirky writing style and doesn't really push for realism. Doctor Who's latest season is an example of a fun, supremely silly sci fi show done right and that has dramatic elements that resonated for me far more than Lost could have ever hoped to achieve.

This show had such potential to be great, but the creators had their heads so far up their asses and it permeates every single script. It takes itself far too seriously for me to go along for the so-called ride. That and i think it's simply awful on the surface level. The dialogue in this show is laughably awful the majority of the time. It's some of the hokiest melodrama i have ever seen. I mean, it's fine if you like that, but seeing people hold this show on some pedestal of amazing drama makes me cringe, especially when there are so many glaring instances of the writers using the characters as mere plot devices to stall development on anything and the endless vague motivations that never add up to much in the end.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom