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Lost progress woes (in Persona 5)

dramatis

Member
I don't​ understand this point. All the enemies respawn. What real "progress" are you saving when you have to fight them all again, taking you the same time and resources to get back where you were? Yeah, you've the EXP you earned, but by the same token, you'd be going back to the previous safe room time after time because you'd always hit a point where it's a risk to continue.

Feeling the OP, though, since yesterday. Got to the last area, and my MC died twice in different spots, making me lose a collective hour of my already-short weekend. I went and played FFXIV for three hours as a way to cool off because I was so mad. There wasn't a safe room for about 45 minutes into the dungeon, so there was no way to save up to that point.

Great game (besides a bunch of story issues), but especially being late-game, that sours my overall impression of it. And I don't care how shit Nocturne was; that doesn't improve my outlook.
I don't know if it's just the way I played, but you can use hiding spots to run around enemies and skip them. In Mementos if you're in the car and you drive quickly past their back they don't even notice you.

I played on Normal difficulty, and I didn't finish P3 or P4, but I thought P5 was incredibly lenient on save rooms and difficulty. I would check the network to see what other people did and see an average level that was 10 levels above mine, but the dungeons and Mementos remained easy. I didn't do the "fuse something that resists death" thing, I fused according to arcana because I wanted bonus points hanging out with confidants, so a lot of my personas went unused. The upside is that I literally had random abilities that I might have needed in battle on 10 different personas or something I suppose.

My point is, it's kind of baffling to me how much trouble people are having playing the game, unless they're on Hard difficulty?

I feel like the modern environment of auto-saving has made players forget that progress used to have its own risk/reward. Players want to feel challenged so they pick a higher difficulty level, but then get annoyed by the pacing of the game. I think if the game offers different difficulty levels, and you feel like you're wasting time dying, wouldn't it be feasible to set your difficulty lower?
 
Good luck OP. You've insulted the game which must not be criticized.


That one part of the game has wasted a lot of my time as well.
Particularly because the spacing between safe rooms time-wise is much farther than the beginning of floors in Personas 3 and 4.

And it's not even that the game is hard. This is a small minority of fight, and somewhat random at that. But the amount of time it takes to progress somewhere with a save point is high compared to how often they randomly oneshot the protagonist.

Worst part is that they can tell this is a problem, and even added a retry button onto boss fights, but just those.

The fix isn't to add retry buttons to every battle, though. It's to take out that rule which doesn't make much sense in the context of turn based battle in a party-based RPG. The protagonist should be able to be revived. The challenge of killing enemies doesn't need to be lessened (if anything it's waaay easier than most other SMT games). The save structure doesn't even need to be updated from it's 1990's-like state. Just the arbitrary "you can revive anyone but that guy" rule.

But don't think too critically OP. You'll be told "try playing on easy" or other ways to avoid real discourse. We've have 2 threads on this that I can remember already.
 
Do people really feel the amount of safe rooms in Palace 3 or 4 are reasonable? Even in 2 you have to go through long ass areas before arriving at one, not counting the time you lose trying to solve trial-and-error room puzzles.
Palace 3 has around 5 safe rooms. Most of the enemies early in the dungeon are weak against Nuke, Elec and Ice. You'd only have to worry about Oni who has no weaknesses but can just get tarunda'd or rakunda'd and hit hard with magic spells. Palace 4 has a safe room before every new area in the main hall, and the final room has a safe room before the miniboss. The only regular enemy you have to worry about in that Palace is Anubis who has no weaknesses and can use hama spells which are still avaoidable if you inflict rage on him or just use a bless resist Persona. I don't recall any long areas in Palace 2 nor any trial and error puzzles.

How do you prepare for crits and 1 more attacks on your MC from enemies that spawn right behind you? I think it's a bit insincere to pretend this game can not end in an unlucky game over to anyone who's "prepared".
Because this game CAN fuck you over, even when you are prepared.
Unless by "prepared" you mean reading a guide that will tell you when surprise enemies spawn and what type they are.
I have never had an enemy just randomly spawn behind me. Luck is a factor in some battles especially when you dont know enemy weaknesses but it is entirely disingenuous to act like you can't avoid a lot of these problems being brought up. There are passive abilites to avoid Crits, hold items to avoid crits, speed master, sukunda and sukukaja to avoid anything, but hey sometimes shit happens. Doesn't mean you're going to seriously lose hours worth of progress unless you were careless in other ways too.

how do I learn to avoid being brainwashed at a point in the game where I have no access to anti-brainwash accessories? It boils down to luck at that point.
It's not fun to be taught to rely on luck.
Well you dont need null brainwash accessories, Fuse someone with null brainwash, take less party members with you, use sukakaja and sukunda
 

Dee Dee

Member
Aren't PS4 save files tied to your PSN account?

It's not automatically syncing to the cloud unless you choose to, and there are valid reasons not to for some people. (crappy bandwidth being one, can't have the Thieves Guild's option on at my home without the boyfriend whining about his internet radio cutting off)
Also, cloud saves are PS+ exclusive, not sure about the one online save state in P5 though.

I don't recall any long areas in Palace 2 nor any trial and error puzzles.

maxresdefault.jpg
 

Kyuur

Member
The only way I can really feel bad for this happening if it was truly random. I had some aggravating deaths with progress lost while playing but each time it was because I messed up: failing to ambush, going for the kill instead of negotiating, failing to switch MC Persona properly, etc. Even when a crit is what did me in I probably could've ended the fight sooner to avoid it even having a chance of taking place.
 

Dee Dee

Member
Technically that isn't trial and error. You can see which paintings aren't switched on, so naturally if you tried to jump to them you'd fail (in the games case it shoves you back to the start).

You can't see which painting you end up in though? Not sure where the technicality comes from of this not being trial and error?
 
It's not a Persona game (yes I am a casual who has only played Persona games) if you don't get an unlucky crit on you or something and you just die and that is that. I had the bad habit of letting status effects wear off on their own and concentrate on damage dealing - thinking I'll kill everything quickly and heal up after - only for it to bite me on the ass with Despair. If that works the same way in P4 then I had forgotten and yeah I lost a good chunk of time in a Palace. Never made that mistake again though.
 
It's not automatically syncing to the cloud unless you choose to, and there are valid reasons not to for some people. (crappy bandwidth being one, can't have the Thieves Guild's option on at my home without the boyfriend whining about his internet radio cutting off)
Also, cloud saves are PS+ exclusive, not sure about the one online save state in P5 though.
That was trial and error? The paintings are doors and there are two switches in the area to activate the empty paintings up top that you need to get to. This shouldnt even take more than two minutes to do even in a fresh playthrough.
 
yea its really annoying when you die and they basically reset u back to the last saved point. what makes me even angrier is how the game makes it look like a choice, "are you sure you want to go back, you'll lose all your progress up to that point?" as if i have a damn choice. palace 6's checkpoints were pretty far apart. i just started palace 7, apparently its even worse in this one from what i'm told.
Technically that isn't trial and error. You can see which paintings aren't switched on, so naturally if you tried to jump to them you'd fail (in the games case it shoves you back to the start).

i didn't have a problem with that part but wtf are you going on about? that part is most definitely trial and error.
 

Dee Dee

Member
You kind of can just based off where the exits in the paintings are.


I'm not sure I follow...
It's also not like they ever give you a good overview over this area either that you can zoom out for reference.

But you're basically saying it's perfectly easy to go through this part on first try if you watch close enough? Fair enough.
 
I don't understand how anyone can lose more than twenty minutes of progress with how many safe rooms there are available. It boggles my mind at how careless some of you are.

And people wonder why there is so much handholding in today's game design. Apparently, remembering to save in the safe room is too much responsibility for some people. I mean Jesus it's the safe room. The game basically spells it out for you.

Also, I always get a good eye roll and chuckle when I read the "game doesn't respect my time" complaint. You're gonna whine about replaying 15 minutes out of a 100+ hr game? Ok.

Play on easy.
 

Zafir

Member
yea its really annoying when you die and they basically reset u back to the last saved point. what makes me even angrier is how the game makes it look like a choice, "are you sure you want to go back, you'll lose all your progress up to that point?" as if i have a damn choice. palace 6's checkpoints were pretty far apart. i just started palace 7, apparently its even worse in this one from what i'm told.


i didn't have a problem with that part but wtf are you going on about? that part is most definitely trial and error.

It's not. The entrances are in a similar direction to the painting you'll jump to. If that painting was turned off, you get teleport-ed back. There's only one path you can go on at the start until you turn more paintings on, so as long as you don't try going into entrances facing switch off paintings your fine. After you switch on a painting, obviously you go to that painting instead.

I can totally understand not realising that, since you don't get a fantastic view of the entire thing but it isn't totally trial and error. Besides, even if you didn't figure that out, it's literally a minute to run back.
 

Dee Dee

Member
That part shouldn't take you more than 2-3 attemps, we're calling that trial and error now? WIll probably takes like 5 minutes top (minus the batte on the octopus painting).

How about this part?


I felt this Palace had long passages and lots of trial and error room puzzles. It was hard for me to backtrack to a safe room, and I felt some stuff relied on luck to make it through. That is why I said I didn't feel like there were plentiful saving opportunities.
Noob out.
 

Zafir

Member
How about this part?

Madarame_Palace_Screenshot_2017_04_09_17_09_54.png

I felt this Palace had long passages and lots of trial and error room puzzles. It was hard for me to backtrack to a safe room, and I felt some stuff relied on luck to make it through. That is why I said I didn't feel like there were plentiful saving opportunities.
Noob out.

Isn't there only one path through that up until you get to the paintings. The paintings then open a single door for you to go through.

The paintings aren't trial and error either, for what it's worth, but the last painting will probably stump most people since I remember it was a minuscule difference. So minuscule I can't even remember what it was off the top of my mind.

Either way, I actually felt dungeon 2 was fine for shortcuts and saves.

It's actually 7 and
eight
where I thought the shortcuts were either poorly thought out(former) or non existent (in the latters case).
 

Kyuur

Member
How about this part?



I felt this Palace had long passages and lots of trial and error room puzzles. It was hard for me to backtrack to a safe room, and I felt some stuff relied on luck to make it through. That is why I said I didn't feel like there were plentiful saving opportunities.
Noob out.

I could maybe see the painting jumping as trial and error with how loosely everything was connected, but this definitely was not. The Sayuri was a huge part of that arc and not remembering what it looks like would be on you.
 

DVCY201

Member
The last two are the worst. They have seriously long stretches with no safe rooms in between. I just avoided enemies once I got fed up with it.
 

Hektor

Member
Well not really, resource conservation is not affected because you'd keep it even if you retried, or reloaded - that state would be saved and in theory you could still be screwed if you didn't save enough resources for the fight. Risk management is a skill that can only be learned by knowing what the risks are. Which frankly is impossible by telling people to just play on safe mode.

One can argue safe takes literally everything away from the game, so why aren't you asking for that to be removed too?

Plus, it's an option, why are people so against options? If it allows more people to enjoy a game, then that's great. I won't use it, I've been enjoying SMT games perfectly fine for over a decade, but if more people play the game then more can be made and I can then also enjoy them more.

I don't think you quite understood what I meant with the resources.

Every encounter in SMT is supposed to drain your resources i.e. HP and SP more so than they're supposed to kill you. They do so either by attacking you or by having you attacking them more than nessecary, if you give the player the option to reload the fight he can just reroll the fight over and over again until he rolled his desired outcome.

You know which risks you are taking, the risk of losing everything you've achieved since your last save.

These two things in combination are supposed to make you consider wether you, the player who is low on hp, sp and items want to press on or not. You can play it safe, leave the dungeon, heal up and come back another day or enter the risk reward area of pressing on.

If you press on, you risk dying and having to reload from the last safe point (which is given the abundance of saferooms already hardly a risk, but apparently some people in here are not able to use them) but you can obtain the reward of not having to leave and come back, ultimately saving you a day worth of ingame time as well as the money you would've wasted on healing.

It's kinda funny that you mention the removal of saferooms, because in fact they're already an acknowledgement of the more casual audience that is playing it for the friendos more so than the actual dungeon crawling.

They're one of the major reasons why persona 5 is so, so much easier than the past games let alone nocturne, as you barely ever end up being forced to make hard decisions and suffer their hard consequences.

And unlike what some people say, options don't exist in a vacuum. They have to be accounted and be designed for. If you give the player an option you have to design your game around it for it to stay an engaging experience, which will inevitably also affect the experience of those that don't use them.

Play nocturne on an emulator with save function and see how much of a cakewalk it becomes. That is something the developers would need to consider when designing the game if it were an official feature, for example by raising the difficulty in other areas such as the individual fights, but if you do that, this game that is already hard for people who play it normally becomes even harder.

Of course you could say "then why don't they make different difficulty level for different options" and the simple answer would be that this would cost a lot more money and end with every individual difficulty option being less thoughtful designed the more you got of them.

And completely unrelated to anything of the above, if you really can't stand having to redo some parts of a game because of dying, maybe you're not enjoying the actual gameplay as much as you think you are. Just a thing to consider for people that think dying in a game is a waste of time.
 

Dee Dee

Member
I could maybe see the painting jumping as trial and error with how loosely everything was connected, but this definitely was not. The Sayuri was a huge part of that arc and not remembering what it looks like would be on you.

It's mostly the navigating through this, the painting part wasn't hard. There were dead ends and you revisited a lot of it. The navigating this took long when you were entering it the first time. I get how people say that the second time you visit an area you cut of half the time. Going through this with the last safe room coming before the painting section just before this, I just wanted to illustrate what I meant by saying that backtracking to a safe room after spending probably 50min through the painting section and this including all boss fights it pretty dumb over just letting you save for example at the beginning of this area again.
 

Yopis

Member
And people wonder why there is so much handholding in today's game design. Apparently, remembering to save in the safe room is too much responsibility for some people. I mean Jesus it's the safe room. The game basically spells it out for you.

Also, I always get a good eye roll and chuckle when I read the "game doesn't respect my time" complaint. You're gonna whine about replaying 15 minutes out of a 100+ hr game? Ok.

Play on easy.


Yeah it's sad and never the players fault. Just make everything with no deaths allowed. Shower the player with praise the whole way also. I agree just play on easy and pretend your on hardest difficulty.
 

Zafir

Member
I don't think you quite understood what I meant with the resources.

Every encounter in SMT is supposed to drain your resources i.e. HP and SP more so than they're supposed to kill you. They do so either by attacking you or by having you attacking them more than nessecary, if you give the player the option to reload the fight he can just reroll the fight over and over again until he rolled his desired outcome.

You know which risks you are taking, the risk of losing everything you've achieved since your last save.

These two things in combination are supposed to make you consider wether you, the player who is low on hp, sp and items want to press on or not. You can play it safe, leave the dungeon, heal up and come back another day or enter the risk reward area of pressing on.

If you press on, you risk dying and having to reload from the last safe point (which is given the abundance of saferooms already hardly a risk, but apparently some people in here are not able to use them) but you can obtain the reward of not having to leave and come back, ultimately saving you a day worth of ingame time as well as the money you would've wasted on healing.

It's kinda funny that you mention the removal of saferooms, because in fact they're already an acknowledgement of the more casual audience that is playing it for the friendos more so than the actual dungeon crawling.

They're one of the major reasons why persona 5 is so, so much easier than the past games let alone nocturne, as you barely ever end up being forced to make hard decisions and suffer their hard consequences.

And unlike what some people say, options don't exist in a vacuum. They have to be accounted and be designed for. If you give the player an option you have to design your game around it for it to stay an engaging experience, which will inevitably also affect the experience of those that don't use them.

Play nocturne on an emulator with save function and see how much of a cakewalk it becomes. That is something the developers would need to consider when designing the game if it were an official feature, for example by raising the difficulty in other areas such as the individual fights, but if you do that, this game that is already hard for people who play it normally becomes even harder.

Of course you could say "then why don't they make different difficulty level for different options" and the simple answer would be that this would cost a lot more money and end with every individual difficulty option being less thoughtful designed the more you got of them.

And completely unrelated to anything of the above, if you really can't stand having to redo some parts of a game because of dying, maybe you're not enjoying the actual gameplay as much as you think you are. Just a thing to consider for people that think dying in a game is a waste of time.

I didn't say remove safe rooms, I said remove the safe difficulty which resurrects you if you die. It also makes every enemy ridiculously easy plus gives EXP/Yen multipliers. It literally takes all difficulty out of the game, yet you aren't petitioning for that to be removed.

I also think you're wrong. You could leave the rest of the game the same, and have casual option for people where they can retry any encounter and literally nothing would be need to be changed. It's not like the argument of Skyrim having fast travel causing the entire world to be more open or whatever.

Fire Emblem added a casual option and, shocker, it actually sold better after it. If it sells better, more games can be made and we can still enjoy the game how it was by not using the said difficulty selector. I really don't see what the problem is.
 

Darktalon

Member
If you remove the penalty of dying, you remove 100% of any tension in the dungeon crawling part of the game. It is a concious design decision, and a good design, because it is completly avoidable. You can have the worst luck in the game for the rng parts, and it is still entirely avoidable to die. I have died 3 times, and each time was my fault. You get careless, you dont heal up after every battle, you get ambushed, you leave a persona with weaknesses to the foes you find in the area equipped. Then the game reminds you to not slack off. The punishment is you lose some of your time. If you lost an hour or more, you are not using save rooms appropiately, and you deserve the time lost for not respecting the game. You got ambushed, because you were hasty or careless, and you deserve the time lost for not respecting the game. You got Hama or Mudo cast on the MC, which is 100% avoidable by equipping the correct persona to counter it, you deserve the time lost for not respecting the game.

Stop treating the game as if you deserve to win without ANY effort, or turn the difficulty down to safety.
 

Marcel

Member
I didn't say remove safe rooms, I said remove the safe difficulty which resurrects you if you die. It also makes every enemy ridiculously easy plus gives EXP/Yen multipliers. It literally takes all difficulty out of the game, yet you aren't petitioning for that to be removed.

I also think you're wrong. You could leave the rest of the game the same, and have casual option for people where they can retry any encounter and literally nothing would be need to be changed. It's not like the argument of Skyrim having fast travel causing the entire world to be more open or whatever.

Fire Emblem added a casual option and, shocker, it actually sold better after it. If it sells better, more games can be made and we can still enjoy the game how it was by not using the said difficulty selector. I really don't see what the problem is.

The only game I can think of that added customization of difficulty vs. just an easy/casual mode was Bravely Default and that series is currently in limbo due to poor sales of its sequel. It ultimately never won the casual audience that it was aiming for. Meanwhile Persona 5 is a critical and sales darling in an already well-loved series.

I don't think they will return to the drawing board on something as silly as save rooms when they already lost the series director. There are more important things to worry about in the future.
 
The only game I can think of that added customization of difficulty vs. just an easy/casual mode was Bravely Default and that series is currently in limbo due to poor sales of its sequel. It ultimately never won the casual audience that it was aiming for. Meanwhile Persona 5 is a critical and sales darling in an already well-loved series.

I don't think they will return to the drawing board on something as silly as save rooms when they already lost the series director. There are more important things to worry about in the future.

God that game's marketing was some serious David Cage-level history obscuring.
 
I don't​ understand this point. All the enemies respawn. What real "progress" are you saving when you have to fight them all again, taking you the same time and resources to get back where you were? Yeah, you've the EXP you earned, but by the same token, you'd be going back to the previous safe room time after time because you'd always hit a point where it's a risk to continue.

You're saving the progress of any paths you've unlocked. When people say there's 45+ minutes in between safe rooms, part of that is just figuring out where you have to go and fighting enemies along the way to get there. However once you have all the keys you need, going through the same floor again is very simple and you can skip the majority of enemies so the 45 minutes it took you before will only take you 10 minutes or less to navigate. It does not take the same time and resources to get back to where you were.
 

13ruce

Banned
Oh boy i will keep this in mind for when i finally get to play P5 i own it but i have like 50+ games to play now lol....
 
How about this part?



I felt this Palace had long passages and lots of trial and error room puzzles. It was hard for me to backtrack to a safe room, and I felt some stuff relied on luck to make it through. That is why I said I didn't feel like there were plentiful saving opportunities.
Noob out.

What trial and error? All you need to do is an obvious photo hunting and follow the light. Also, seriously, if you're too lazy to backtrack, why don't you use Goho-M?
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
If luck is involved, this is of course bad, but that's not a problem of lost progress being bad design, but just the gameplay itself being badly designed. In principle, I really like if a game is treating failure as failure rather than a grinding opportunity - also I prefer if grinding is impossible anyway - so I cannot fully agree with the original point.
 

HeeHo

Member
I've had insta-deaths in P3 and P4 but I have never had an enemy cast Hamoan or even Mudoon on my MC in P5.

However, to an extent, it can be greatly avoided. I usually don't use Persona's weak to Bless or Curse. Or if I know an enemy uses insta death skills, I will do everything I can to kill them first or ambush them in advance.

But still, bad luck happens. A crit followed by more attacks. I have died in Persona 5 but only during boss fights and one time very close to the save room.
 

Crayon

Member
This is my first Persona game but I'm familiar with this type of gameplay. Going too far too fast and dying and losing progress is important to the games design.
 

BiggNife

Member
The puzzles in Palace 2 are barely puzzles. I didn't know anyone had any real issues with them.

Especially the "puzzle" in the Escher room. All you need to do is look at Sayuri and memorize the most prominent parts of the drawing. If you keep forgetting then just take a picture of the correct painting on your phone and use it as a reference, problem solved.

They're not particularly good puzzles but I didn't think they were all that frustrating.
 

Kindekuma

Banned
The most progress I've lost in P5 was like 10-15 minutes my entire playthough. And that was because I accidentally killed myself in the final boss using a move with severe damage that reflected back lol. Constantly save, get a level or two? Save. Do a shitton of fusions and getting the right moves on personas? Save.
 

Mediking

Member
Lmao literally just happened to me. Everybody was still standing but Joker got killed by some crap... lost my progress D:
 

Titania

Member
2 things.

1) At least it's more difficult to get Hamoan'd or Mudoon'd from what I've played? And that it's better saving wise than P3/4, where you can only save at the start of a randomising dungeon, so if you die you start at your last save.

2) It seems to be a pretty common complaint/issue, my boyfriend lost dozens of hours from stupid deaths in the game, and while he enjoys a challenge, P5's dumb deaths at times just frustrated him to the point of shutting off the game for the day due to it just feeling unfair.
 

PSqueak

Banned
Funny thing, i felt Persona 5 had much more ways to protect your progress from situations like that than Persona 3, specially since it has a tons of safe rooms in the dungeons. the few times i lost progress it wasn't anything i couldn't get back in 20 or so minutes.

I thought this was gonna be more severe, you know, like accidentally saving at riovannes castle in Final fantasy tactics.
 

Lagamorph

Member
It's not so bad with boss fights at least, it lets you just restart the battle.

But I know that pain OP, especially on some of the dungeons where you can easily go an hour or more between Safe Rooms. Even entering a battle with everyone at full health you can still get wiped out by one lucky hit from the enemy and one of your party missing.
 
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