InsaneTiger
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LTTP: Tomb Raider DE | A 3k word post because I love this game (Untagged Spoilers)
- Thread starter Garrett Hawke
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Turin Turambar
Member
A game that I can't say it's bad, it's very well produced, both in production values and in polished controls and action.
But it's also at the same time the maximum exponent of AAA school of design. It's super bland. Zero originality, zero interesting or engrossing gameplay. All very polished to players can't get lost, can't get stuck, etc. It was clearly designed by committee, a committee that looked at how other AAA games were done and did just one more. All in the name of not doing a game, but doing something very low risk to secure their investment.
So the game turned out to be another third person cover shooter, with cinematic feeling and cool cutscenes, QTE moments, with some of (easy) stealth elements with instant takedowns (which were, like, totally sick bro) and half-blind guards (like other AAA action games), with some RPG elements (every game now have to have a progress system!) and a bit of crafting in the equipment (same), and a few collectibles. There were a few areas where you had a tiny bit of freedom but felt perfunctory, just done to have the bare minimum exploration parts in the game, three tombs that were done in 2 minutes and a pair of "puzzles" that were trivial.
There isn't even one area where it tries to be unique, where it tries to establish its own identity, a gimmick where it can say "and this it's Tomb Raider and not any other game".
Unmemorable.
But it's also at the same time the maximum exponent of AAA school of design. It's super bland. Zero originality, zero interesting or engrossing gameplay. All very polished to players can't get lost, can't get stuck, etc. It was clearly designed by committee, a committee that looked at how other AAA games were done and did just one more. All in the name of not doing a game, but doing something very low risk to secure their investment.
So the game turned out to be another third person cover shooter, with cinematic feeling and cool cutscenes, QTE moments, with some of (easy) stealth elements with instant takedowns (which were, like, totally sick bro) and half-blind guards (like other AAA action games), with some RPG elements (every game now have to have a progress system!) and a bit of crafting in the equipment (same), and a few collectibles. There were a few areas where you had a tiny bit of freedom but felt perfunctory, just done to have the bare minimum exploration parts in the game, three tombs that were done in 2 minutes and a pair of "puzzles" that were trivial.
There isn't even one area where it tries to be unique, where it tries to establish its own identity, a gimmick where it can say "and this it's Tomb Raider and not any other game".
Unmemorable.
Eh, I disagree. I did enjoy it but it left me with nothing if not disappointment for what I consider a huge missed opportunity.
TR has been discussed 50 times already and some of the other gaffers already said what I think as well, but maybe I'll explain myself when I'm home. I tell you already that I save nothing about story and characters relationship and I think that the bow was badly implemented, as it's too simple too use, fast, powerful and there are too many arrows, which is a direct consequence of another mistake (imho): hundreds of almost brainless people to kill. They did it because they wanted a fun TPS (they did).. but at the same time they took Lara's arc seriously (it's actually pathetic), two things that cannot be developed together. Too many mistakes, really, and a missed opportunity as I was saying.
TR has been discussed 50 times already and some of the other gaffers already said what I think as well, but maybe I'll explain myself when I'm home. I tell you already that I save nothing about story and characters relationship and I think that the bow was badly implemented, as it's too simple too use, fast, powerful and there are too many arrows, which is a direct consequence of another mistake (imho): hundreds of almost brainless people to kill. They did it because they wanted a fun TPS (they did).. but at the same time they took Lara's arc seriously (it's actually pathetic), two things that cannot be developed together. Too many mistakes, really, and a missed opportunity as I was saying.
I disagree. Production was okay, but the game itself was forgettable at best. For being AAA, it was a shit game.
- I thought the story was shit and completely uninteresting. Had to force myself to finish, which only ended up even more dislike for this game.
- Enemies were dumb as fuck.
- New Lara is annoying. The game probably becomes slightly better if you play it on mute.
- Couldn't help but think Uncharted clone, which is funny, seeing all the misinformed people that think Uncharted's inspiration was the original Tomb Raider.
The sequel doesn't look better, either. If anything, it's even more "cinematic" now, and an even worse copy of Uncharted after seeing the 15 minute Uncharted 4 demo. Not even in the same league.
- I thought the story was shit and completely uninteresting. Had to force myself to finish, which only ended up even more dislike for this game.
- Enemies were dumb as fuck.
- New Lara is annoying. The game probably becomes slightly better if you play it on mute.
- Couldn't help but think Uncharted clone, which is funny, seeing all the misinformed people that think Uncharted's inspiration was the original Tomb Raider.
The sequel doesn't look better, either. If anything, it's even more "cinematic" now, and an even worse copy of Uncharted after seeing the 15 minute Uncharted 4 demo. Not even in the same league.
Hoho for breakfast
Member
Fantastic game. Had more fun with it than Uncharted 3 for sure and if the story wasn't garbage it would have given Uncharted 2 a good run for best action/adventure game of the last 5 years.
You mean a game that got great reviews? Get the fuck outta here.
shinobi602
Member
Loved every minute of it. It was one of the best games of 2013 for me. Really excited for ROTR.
GlamFM
Banned
Come on. This thread really, really does not deserve drive by shit posting.
Triggerhappytel
Member
I really like the game. I've been with the series since the beginning and while tonally I'm not fond of the route they went down and I would have liked more exploration, puzzles and actual tombs - and less killing - they made a terrific gameworld which is generally fun to traverse. I don't like that the buildings are made from paper which fall over when Lara breathes on them, the combat is really good albeit not stand-out in any sense and the visuals are tech are really something special (I played the PS4 version). It's an excellent modernisation of a classic brand and although I didn't like the writing very much in the first game I'm hoping they'll do better with RotTR and learn a lot of lessons from this one while expanding on its non-combat gameplay.
Anniversary is my series favourite overall and I consider myself a series fan since the original (although not die-hard), but I think being realistic TR2013 is just about as good as we could have hoped for. I'm hoping that the next one has more survival stuff (but meaningful and not token), some actual proper tombs and a sense of discovery, better writing and less focus on combat. Sadly, the last one is unlikely to happen, but here's hoping for a general step up from TR2013.
Anniversary is my series favourite overall and I consider myself a series fan since the original (although not die-hard), but I think being realistic TR2013 is just about as good as we could have hoped for. I'm hoping that the next one has more survival stuff (but meaningful and not token), some actual proper tombs and a sense of discovery, better writing and less focus on combat. Sadly, the last one is unlikely to happen, but here's hoping for a general step up from TR2013.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I hope there's more meaningful survival and crafting in ROTTR, and yes, more tombs
And hopefully better puzzles. But I think they have a fantastic base to work from and imo it's amazing how CD managed to turn this franchise around.Glad y'all enjoyed it
At least you enjoyed it too
I personally really like what they did with it but I can see there are some valid complaints about it, particularly the disconnect between the narrative vs. Lara's ease of killing people.I can't think of a more bland, stereotypical cast of characters in a game in a long time. Angry black woman, spiritual Samoan dude, geeky kid who secretly loves the girl, crazy Irish drunk, greedy selfish businessman, etc. It was hard to take the story serious and care about any of them. It doesn't hurt the overarching story is incredibly boring as well. The shipwreck setup was cool and had potential but nothing ever came of it. The game as a whole feels like design by committee, it's almost like a "greatest hits" of all the recent trends in AAA games. It throws them all together in a bland and soulless package. Mechanically I think it's really solid and Lara was generally fun to control, but yea, the game is mediocre and ultimately disappointing. TR Anniversary is still the best thing CD has done with TR. Actually, Guardian of Light is, but that's a different beast
I agree OP. Having played the original tomb raider up to the fourth installment and all 3 of CD's original games, i have to think that TR2013(especially PS4DE) is a great change from those games are has a lot of great qualities to it.
Is it perfect? Of course not, but it doesn't really need to be. I also agree with you that the combat of TR is better than the first 3 Uncharted(so far). Naughty Dog seem to have surpassed it with UC4 based on what we've seen, but TR2013 brought so much more to the table in terms of weapon and character customization, melee combat and how the weapons actually in general that made going back to UC pretty by the numbers in terms of third person shooting aspect
Is it perfect? Of course not, but it doesn't really need to be. I also agree with you that the combat of TR is better than the first 3 Uncharted(so far). Naughty Dog seem to have surpassed it with UC4 based on what we've seen, but TR2013 brought so much more to the table in terms of weapon and character customization, melee combat and how the weapons actually in general that made going back to UC pretty by the numbers in terms of third person shooting aspect
toastyToast
Member
It's a good game in the sense that there's nothing wrong with it. Crystal took the greatest hits of modern game design and threw it in a blender. Game worked fantastically. For what it's supposed to be I couldn't help but find it off-putting. I'm not a major Tomb Raider aficionado but I mean, when I sit down with a god damn Tomb Raider game I have a certain set of expectations. If I wanted to run around collecting shit and/or smashing dudes heads I'd play the myriad games that I can also do that in. The tombs are dismal. Two minute blindingly obvious romps are not tombs in what they should be to be to Tomb Raider. They're even hidden (terribly but still)..
I've gotten into it a number of times already but ultimately my disappointment verging on aggravation with the game is a horrid lack of identity when the game was perfectly set up with its own. You're even given the impression that it's a survival game early on but then it becomes Farcry moments later. The game is bipolar and what it became I don't give a fuck about.
I've gotten into it a number of times already but ultimately my disappointment verging on aggravation with the game is a horrid lack of identity when the game was perfectly set up with its own. You're even given the impression that it's a survival game early on but then it becomes Farcry moments later. The game is bipolar and what it became I don't give a fuck about.
I agree 100%. I can't deny the polish but it's just... so bland. At the end I had some fun with it because overall is a well made game but it's just so uninspired, compared to the old TR (It's true that they did made too much TR too fast).
I understand why people tend to compare the new Tomb Raider with the Uncharted series. The former is repetitiously deemed as a "poor man's Uncharted" by a lot of people thanks to its sub-par use of characters, set-pieces and other cinematic flourishes mastered and popularized by the latter. What I don't understand is why that conversation extends to both games' gameplay systems and design.
It's clear the intent of Naughty Dog when it develops the Uncharted games: fast-paced, film-like games that evoke the sense of action, adventure and character that runs through Indiana Jones' pulp vein. It's all momentum-based, with nary a minute to stop by to read books, inspect artifacts and "make camp" for the night. On the contrary, Crystal Dynamics' focus should be in the exploration and puzzle-solving aspects that belong to the legacy it's handling. It should involve backtracking, a more palpable sense of growth in abilities for the lead character and a lot of artifact-inspecting and lore-building.
Dissing Uncharted because it lacks all the things it doesn't need simply because "Tomb Raider has them" is not fair. What is fair is criticizing Tomb Raider for doing all the things it doesn't need to, badly. I don't know if this ended up communicating what I wanted to communicate, but there it is. Hopefully it did.
EDIT: Oh, and great thread, OP. Although I don't necessarily agree with you in most points, I did enjoy the 9 hours or so I played of the game. I'll have to dip back before Rise of the Tomb Raider comes out to finish it.
It's clear the intent of Naughty Dog when it develops the Uncharted games: fast-paced, film-like games that evoke the sense of action, adventure and character that runs through Indiana Jones' pulp vein. It's all momentum-based, with nary a minute to stop by to read books, inspect artifacts and "make camp" for the night. On the contrary, Crystal Dynamics' focus should be in the exploration and puzzle-solving aspects that belong to the legacy it's handling. It should involve backtracking, a more palpable sense of growth in abilities for the lead character and a lot of artifact-inspecting and lore-building.
Dissing Uncharted because it lacks all the things it doesn't need simply because "Tomb Raider has them" is not fair. What is fair is criticizing Tomb Raider for doing all the things it doesn't need to, badly. I don't know if this ended up communicating what I wanted to communicate, but there it is. Hopefully it did.
EDIT: Oh, and great thread, OP. Although I don't necessarily agree with you in most points, I did enjoy the 9 hours or so I played of the game. I'll have to dip back before Rise of the Tomb Raider comes out to finish it.
Kralamoonard
Member
I agree OP. I loved it and felt the gameplay was very enjoyable with some really nice level design. I also liked the mechanics, and the hub areas with the upgrade system. Even playing it on last gen (PS3), the gameplay felt super solid and satisfying
The things I didn't like were the shoddy story, poor writing, support characters, voice acting and characterisation. That's why I always feel like I'll prefer Uncharted; despite both being great games and of my favourite games last gen, the characters in Uncharted actually have life to them and are very well acted/written. They feel real.
Of course I also disagree with people saying Uncharted's gameplay is weaker; I feel Uncharted's gameplay suits it very well in what it sets out to do. For example a level design similar to that of TR (i.e. open world hub areas) wouldn't suit Uncharted very well as being a non-stop action Indiana Jones type game. Similarly I think Uncharted's level design and gameplay wouldn't suit TR 2013 and so both are unique (and work well) in their own right.
Anyhow, a great read OP. Glad to see you enjoyed it and I like the effort that went into making the LTTP.
particularly dem headshots with the bow.
The things I didn't like were the shoddy story, poor writing, support characters, voice acting and characterisation. That's why I always feel like I'll prefer Uncharted; despite both being great games and of my favourite games last gen, the characters in Uncharted actually have life to them and are very well acted/written. They feel real.
Of course I also disagree with people saying Uncharted's gameplay is weaker; I feel Uncharted's gameplay suits it very well in what it sets out to do. For example a level design similar to that of TR (i.e. open world hub areas) wouldn't suit Uncharted very well as being a non-stop action Indiana Jones type game. Similarly I think Uncharted's level design and gameplay wouldn't suit TR 2013 and so both are unique (and work well) in their own right.
Anyhow, a great read OP. Glad to see you enjoyed it and I like the effort that went into making the LTTP.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I didn't mean for it to come across as "dissing Uncharted", sorry :/ I realise that TR came out at least 18 months after Uncharted 3 so of course TR would be more modern. I do have to say though the Uncharted's gunplay is poor - it's merely serviceable imo, but it's not satisfying and on higher difficulties just becomes a chore. I absolutely adore the games though, I just feel that about it.
I'm hoping ROTTR will have more of an emphasis on discovery too, that was one thing that I feel TR could've been better at. That's fair enough, when talking about Uncharted's level design I was more referring to Uncharted 4 which (from what we have seen) seems to have more open level design. Not hub world open, but more open than the shooting corridors of the previous games.
LOL yeah the handicam thing is a bit... well, it would be nice if it was an option.
Kralamoonard
Member
Yeah I get ya! That's why I'm pretty excited considering the PSX Uncharted 4 demo looked much more open than the other Uncharted's and more flexible in gameplay styles and ways you can approach enemies, reminded me a lot like TLoU.
Anyway, forgot to say, great thread nevertheless. I really dig the layout (like the banner thingy lol), effort and design that went into creating the OP. One of the few LTTP that I actually enjoyed reading. Kudos to you, would like to hear more future LTTP as they are readable and well set out.
Dangansona
Member
Yup, I can't imagine how anyone would prefer Tomb Raider to Uncharted for this reason alone.
I also remember feeling pretty good about what I thought would be the ending when all the buildings were on fire and Lara was on the rooftops. Then the game kept going and I became increasingly disinterested.
Heck of a game, and one I had to stop myself from buying third time when it was on sale on the X1 a few weeks back.
They nailed the gunplay, and I really loved the more open areas that were opened by the different tools.
Is it Tomb Raider classic? Hell no, and why I'd really like a new 3d one of those, I still managed to really like the reboot.
(one of my favorite official art pieces)
They nailed the gunplay, and I really loved the more open areas that were opened by the different tools.
Is it Tomb Raider classic? Hell no, and why I'd really like a new 3d one of those, I still managed to really like the reboot.
(one of my favorite official art pieces)
TheChewyWaffles
Member
Beat the game twice, which means I must have really enjoyed it because I rarely beat games at all.
OrlanisWorks
Banned
This is the prettiest LTTP I ever seen evar. Good work on organizing and writing it!
Pretty much agreed. Some parts of Tomb Raider felt shallow, but there were parts that felt genuinely crafted. Controlling Lara was really great and clean, and the combat was fun and good on handling.
Pretty much agreed. Some parts of Tomb Raider felt shallow, but there were parts that felt genuinely crafted. Controlling Lara was really great and clean, and the combat was fun and good on handling.
grandwizard
Member
Lol @ being a 'feminist' game. They transform one of gaming's true badass female leads into a whimpering girl that the strong gamer man player needs to lead by the hand and 'protect', and has three separate men die to save her from X event.
Matches up nicely with transforming the series from one about harsh platforming, exploration and puzzle solving into a basic cover based third person shooter that is 90% combat and 10% the most braindead 3d platforming you can find. HIDDEN TOMB NEARBY.
Matches up nicely with transforming the series from one about harsh platforming, exploration and puzzle solving into a basic cover based third person shooter that is 90% combat and 10% the most braindead 3d platforming you can find. HIDDEN TOMB NEARBY.
Really great LTTP thread.
And I agree. I love this game. Played through it three times and bought my PS4 with the Definitive Edition as my only PS4 game for a while.
Strangely this is one of the few games where I changed my mind later on.
On my first playthrough I was too bummed out that the game is so violent and has hardly any interesting puzzles and doesn't play anything like the old games. Towards the later half I was looking forward to for the game to end. I did enjoy it somewhat though and I like the new Lara (especially in the German version. I think her voice actress does a great job and she sounds less serious all the time which helps the overall tone of the game a bit where the writing isn't too strong)
Month later I did play it a second time without thinking about the old games and see it more as its own game and loved it. The level design is great, gameplay works fine and I still like the new Lara and her new design in the Definitive Edition. One of my favourite games and I'm very excited for Rise of the Tomb Raider.
And I agree. I love this game. Played through it three times and bought my PS4 with the Definitive Edition as my only PS4 game for a while.
Strangely this is one of the few games where I changed my mind later on.
On my first playthrough I was too bummed out that the game is so violent and has hardly any interesting puzzles and doesn't play anything like the old games. Towards the later half I was looking forward to for the game to end. I did enjoy it somewhat though and I like the new Lara (especially in the German version. I think her voice actress does a great job and she sounds less serious all the time which helps the overall tone of the game a bit where the writing isn't too strong)
Month later I did play it a second time without thinking about the old games and see it more as its own game and loved it. The level design is great, gameplay works fine and I still like the new Lara and her new design in the Definitive Edition. One of my favourite games and I'm very excited for Rise of the Tomb Raider.
Gameplay and level design is good (platforming is way better than Uncharted because you can control Lara in the air). Gunplay is not as good though, if it weren't for the bow, combat would be horrible, every single weapon feels cheap and not satisfactory at all, and considering there is a lot of combat in the game, the bow basically saved the whole thing.
I think the story is absolutely unredeemable, sorry. The characters are a complete joke made out of insultingly bad stereotypes and the dialogue is just lazy, definitely the worst aspect of the game. Lara's VA is great though. The puzzles are kinda meh too.
It builds and improves on Uncharted in certain aspects (platforming mainly) but it's miles behind when we talk about the whole package. They really need to work on the story and the characters.
8/10.
I think the story is absolutely unredeemable, sorry. The characters are a complete joke made out of insultingly bad stereotypes and the dialogue is just lazy, definitely the worst aspect of the game. Lara's VA is great though. The puzzles are kinda meh too.
It builds and improves on Uncharted in certain aspects (platforming mainly) but it's miles behind when we talk about the whole package. They really need to work on the story and the characters.
8/10.
Strangelove77
Member
That's official? Fuck.Heck of a game, and one I had to stop myself from buying third time when it was on sale on the X1 a few weeks back.
They nailed the gunplay, and I really loved the more open areas that were opened by the different tools.
Is it Tomb Raider classic? Hell no, and why I'd really like a new 3d one of those, I still managed to really like the reboot.
(one of my favorite official art pieces)
Also, I gotta say that this was a great looking LTTP.
Pretty sure it is.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Thanks a bunch!
I tried to put a bit of effort in That's awesomeHeck of a game, and one I had to stop myself from buying third time when it was on sale on the X1 a few weeks back.
They nailed the gunplay, and I really loved the more open areas that were opened by the different tools.
Is it Tomb Raider classic? Hell no, and why I'd really like a new 3d one of those, I still managed to really like the reboot.
(one of my favorite official art pieces)
Same, I love a lot of games but there are some I can't go back to again, this wasn't one of them
Thanks
I feel like that's a very narrow way of looking at it. The people playing Tomb Raider are going to be coming from all walks of life, and Lara definitely doesn't need "saving". The only empowering thing about old Lara is that she was often in control of the situation - everything else, from her 2D psycho personality to borderline offensive physique was very much a product of it's time, reflecting the immaturity of the industry.
Thanks
and same, the first time I played through I enjoyed it but nowhere near as much as on successive playthroughs. It absolutely stuck with me though.I was going for headshots pretty much all the time - if I wasn't going to get a headshot I wouldn't bother firing, which is probably why I found the weapons more satisfying (as obviously it would have the visual feedback of a headshot). I do agree that the story falls short in some places, but personally I was able to look past that because I loved the game on offer so much.
LOL yeah his accent was a bit immersion breaking, although I haven't noticed him in any other games.
I think both do things better than the other and I agree, they're not really all that easy to compare. I was specifically looking to address that comparison as when I've seen it, it's usually used as a negative against TR, so I wanted to address that. But they're both very different things, different tones, different emphases etc.
Presentation
- Yeah. The game is definitely pretty.
Gameplay
- Lara is very smooth to control, yet you have much less to control. Backflips, sideflips, crawling, walking slowly to avoid damaging hazards: all gone. You run, you jump. That's it. The game automates most of everything so you have to try really hard to fail. The Core games were clunky, but they were also incredibly precise and 99% of anything that went wrong was the player's fault because the player was in complete control.
- Combat is obviously improved mechanically from the old games. However, there is way too much of it and it's incredibly repetitive, which overall makes it worse. In the old games, the Core games, combat wasn't a focus. It was still bad, yes, but I didn't sigh in boredom because I had to do long drawn out segments where the game just asked me to shoot people over and over. Combat should be like a garnish to the meal, not the meal itself.
"Platforming"
- I'm very hesitant to call what this game does platforming. I mean, at the very basic level there are platforms and you do jump on them... but it's so automated and, well, insulting. As I said before, they removed most of Lara's movement options, which alone cut a ton of platforming possibilities. The level design is designed so that paths are very obvious and that you can't get lost and movement along the paths is so automated that there is never a sense that any kind of skill is being applied. You don't have to think carefully about where to go, you don't have to choose what kind of jump to make, you don't have to aim your jumps, and you don't have to time your jumps. The game will extend or shorten your jumps automatically as necessary to ensure you'll stick the landing. Considering that platforming was the meat and potatoes of Tomb Raider this is incredibly disappointing to say the least. The "traditional" style platforming is insipid. In the old games you were placed in big open areas where you had to look around and figure out where to go and getting to your destination was fraught with challenge. The reboot feels like following a nature trail in comparison. It's really no different from the actiony set-piece stuff. That just adds a time limit to your jumps, but the path is just as linear, simple, and automated. When the comparison gifs you mention are posted they are comparing how the games handled action. In the old games you had time limits to complete challenging sequences that you had full control of. The reboot's idea of action is to put you on rails and turn down the challenge while focusing on things exploding around you. The old games had running and jumping at the right time. The reboot has running and pressing jump whenever because it doesn't matter much.
Puzzles
- The other major part of a Tomb Raider game that is largely absent here. The puzzles are decent but simple and most of them are optional. The very few parts where the game asked me to think, like in that sequence with the broken elevator, felt very Tomb Raidery, but there were only like 4 times in the whole game where they asked me to do that to progress the game. The whole game should be filled with that kind of stuff.
Story
- It had a lot of potential. The setting is interesting and the basic idea is good. The problem is it was executed terribly. The lore with the ancient Japanese temples and Japanese WW2 bases was great, as well as all of the potential for various shipwrecks across history, but unfortunately the cult's shanty influence was ubiquitous. It's weird you talk about story here but focus mostly on the optional lore and stuff. The supporting cast is just all around bad and wasting time. The premise of the game being an origin story is hampered by Lara being a military expert and superhuman climber with no development. The survival angle is hampered by Lara killing 400 people and never having to manage resources. She has multiple opportunities to kill Mathias but doesn't because plot, and she gets captured like 3 times in the game. One of the biggest letdowns by far is how the game builds up the oni as this horrible supernatural threat that defeated the Japanese military, kept the mysterious Trinity organization at bay, and couldn't be dealt with by a cult hundreds of men strong and then when you finally have to deal with them head-on they are no more of a threat than any of the humans you have faced throughout the game.
- The game does not end with Lara realizing she needs to isolate herself. It ends with her excitedly planning her next adventure. One reason this game is really bad as an origin story is it doesn't present a situation or characterization that would make Lara go "I want to do that again!" yet that's what she does. The journal she's looking at the end is a reference to Roanoke, an early island colony in North Carolina where everyone mysteriously disappeared; possibly slaughtered by the local natives.
First Kill
- I don't think people have a problem with the deer kill. When people complain about this they are typically complaining about how she kills her first human, has a small reaction to it, and then immediately becomes Rambo in gameplay. After brutally killing like a dozen more guys and performing climbing feats beyond human ability, she doubts that she can do the things she already did a lot of and has to be reassured by her mentor. A lot of people wonder why she can't just find strength on her own like Lara was in the past. And then, of course, she goes on a killing spree where she kills like 400 humans, which is quite excessive. You mention that they could have handled it better by ramping up the amount of humans she encountered, and that's true, but I'd say it'd be overall to the game's benefit if there were VERY few humans in the entire game. Similar to the original Tomb Raider, which had but 5 human enemies, they should have had human encounters be rare and incredibly challenging. It would highlight that Lara is one person against many. One person does not effortlessly kill hundreds of people single-handedly and get to call themselves a survivor.
Level Design
- This something you neglected because it's something the reboot neglected. While the environments are pretty, as I stated before they are designed like nature trails. The real star of the old Tomb Raider games was the level design. Levels were designed for players to have free reign to discover the path forward, navigate challenging platforming sequences and deadly traps, solve puzzles, and find secrets. You felt a real sense of accomplishment getting to a place you were trying to reach. Compare that to something that amazes people in the reboot: the radio tower. You see it in the distance, and after a long easy climb through multiple loading zones you reach it and climb it. All you do is follow the path the game forces you down to reach it while killing guys along the way. It doesn't feel earned.
- Also, while the documents and relics are interesting, they aren't hidden very well, and the rest of the collectables are essentially pixel hunts. The old games had very interesting level design where you could find secret areas through careful observation and performing skillful maneuvers to reach, but in the reboot stuff is just scattered along the ground randomly and the challenge tombs aren't a challenge to find.
Uncharted Raider
- People bring this up because when Uncharted first came out people joked that it was aping Tomb Raider when in fact it was it's own take on the Indiana Jones style pulp adventure genre. The reboot of Tomb Raider, however, is a very blatant attempt to copy Uncharted as well as several other modern AAA games and drowns its own identity.
- The reboot is more of a fake hub style. You trek through about 3 areas more than once, and each time it is with scripted layout changes. The game is actually completely linear, which isn't bad, but it's just not what people think. Even when there should be absolutely no reason you shouldn't be able to go between two areas you have to warp to a campfire if you want to visit areas after the game is done with them.
- You should feel bad for the goons in Tomb Raider. They are shipwreck survivors who have been forced to join a cult through torture and threat of death fighting to survive on an island of magical storms and samurai zombies. Some of them have conversations about how they don't agree with the cult and how they just want to get off the island so they can go home. The game turns all of them into psycho killers when the combat flag is triggered because they only recorded a very limited amount of dialog for combat. If they are terrible people who deserve no sympathy due to the atrocities they committed due to the circumstances they found themselves in then Lara is a terrible person for the atrocities she committed.
Feminism
- While the old Lara was certainly treated as a sex symbol in marketing, her sex wasn't important in the games. She was a strong, determined character that happened to be female. Conversely, Lara's sex is called attention to repeatedly in the reboot. She gets captured for sacrifice repeatedly and almost raped because she is female. The game was designed to make you want to protect Lara in the words of the developer. Lara goes through development that her previous female self and contemporary male characters didn't need to establish themselves as strong. She's sexualized in a more modern way by having her repeatedly be injured and covered in blood.
This video starts out wondering what people saw in Lara since the game had platforming bits, puzzle bits, and shooting bits and did none of them well or genre-defining.
The star of Tomb Raider wasn't Lara; it was the level design and gameplay. There were not different sections of the different gameplay elements. It was all integrated. Tomb Raider was a pioneer of 3D platforming. It released in 1996 a few months after Super Mario 64. While Nintendo opted to deal with the challenges of navigating 3D space by making Mario into a more adventure-style game, Tomb Raider handled the issue by making movement extremely precise. Jump distances were easy to measure and mastery of Lara's movement meant you could make daring leaps with confidence. With standing jumps, running jumps, backflips, sideflips, and other moves at your disposal and level design that took full advantage of these abilities Tomb Raider was a premier platforming experience. The puzzles existed to give the platforming purpose. You have to navigate the levels in different ways to solve the puzzles and find the secrets. Combat existed mostly to inflict health damage. There weren't combat sections and levels weren't designed around combat. Basically combat gave you a reason to find more powerful weapons and healing items, since they made the enemies go away faster and allowed you to recover health respectively. This made the secret items much more satisfying to find.
The problems with Crystal Dynamic's previous TR are the same problems that are amplified in the reboot: too much combat and magnetic glowing white ledge platforming. Instead of fixing those problems and making the gameplay better they made the platforming even less skill-based than it was before and made shooting the primary gameplay focus.
Garrett Hawke
Member
After reading through this, I have to disagree with most of your points. You seem quite hung up on it's differences when compared to Classic TR, which is fine, but they did exactly what they tried to do which was modernise and streamline the TR experience. They could definitely have added harder puzzles and platforming, and I definitely think they should in ROTTR, but pretty much everything else is an improvement over the older games.
Lara has less control options because the jump and roll buttons are enough for everything. The older TR games controlled like that not because they were intended to be like that, but rather because they were designed like that around the limitations of the hardware and the relative inexperience in navigating 3D worlds. The Classic TR scheme of having multiple different types of jumps, rolls etc fits those games because they were designed around that. TR 2013 was supposed to streamline a lot of that and it does it - it might not be what you would consider an improvement but it is certainly more "modern", and I have hope that in ROTTR they will take the modern control scheme and properly use it to challenge us.
Out of interest, what do you think of the Uncharted games? You mentioned them briefly but I'd like to know your opinion on them, as many of your issues seem to be with design traits shared with that franchise.
(one of my favorite official art pieces)
Damn I love this, almost forgot they made it.
Golgo 13
The Man With The Golden Dong
Impressive write-up. I really enjoyed the game when I played it on the 360, and I definitely look forward to the sequel coming later this year. I like the approach they took to Lara in making her a fleshed out human being with fears, courage, humor, sympathy, and inner-strength. It feels good to be excited about Tomb Raider again
visiblemode
Member
It really is an awesome game. Never understood how some people hated it so much.
I really, really hope the sequel does it justice. So far the footage looks ok, but since I love the first one so much I was so ready to be like "OMG!" So far though, is kinda more of the same...which, to be fair, isn't a bad thing, but I want it to blow the first one away.
I really, really hope the sequel does it justice. So far the footage looks ok, but since I love the first one so much I was so ready to be like "OMG!" So far though, is kinda more of the same...which, to be fair, isn't a bad thing, but I want it to blow the first one away.
OrlanisWorks
Banned
RagnarokX said:
I see that you still don't quite get it. You have to take it as it is: these people are trying to kill her and their goal is to kill her and all of her mates. Her goal is to save her friend, as well as the others of their shipwreck, all along the way with these goons following orders to find and end Lara. You are comparing apples (Lara) to oranges (the island goons).
grandwizard
Member
Agreed 100%. Every step they take forward with the reboot they took two steps back in design. A reboot that freshened up the series while still respecting it's strengths in platforming, puzzles, and challenge would have been amazing. Unfortunately they took the easy and safe way and turned it into a cover based shooter full of modern design tropes that are in every AAA game these days.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Same
I really enjoyed the older games, but I didn't love them like I did this one.I'm pretty optimistic, the new locations look absolutely awesome and to be fair the stuff they've shown properly in gameplay demos has been quite same-y in terms of visuals to Yamatai, which might be why you feel it looks to be just more of the same
Tbh I didn't find her unlikeable but she was a bit of a stereotype (the angry black woman), but I could see her motivation (she lost Roth and she just wanted to get back to her child).
Yeah, pretty much. Lara is never malicious in the way that these goons are - the furthest she takes it is shouting "I'm coming for you all" or something like that right after they've tried to kill her for the 50th time.
Tremendous OP. Glad to see someone really highlight all the positives in depth. It really was a great adventure and one I continually get friends to try who haven't played through it. I think you nailed all of the criticisms with well thought out explanations. Very refreshing to not just hear the usual pointless drivel of simpleton descriptions such as "trash", "garbage", "sucks", etc...
Clockwork5
Member
Great game. Fun through the last minute. Story was ok but everything about the gameplay and design was stellar. Still about the best looking game on the PS4.
Beerman462
Member
Played through it 2 or 3 times and it's great. Can't wait for the sequel.
Thanks I enjoyed reading that. There are perhaps many valid complaints about the story, but personally I enjoyed Lara's development during the game. She was simply a very relateable character to me. It's a story of someone dealing with a challenging situation and trying to find the confidence in oneself to overcome it. The moment where Lara transitions from a scared girl stuck on a strange island to a confident badass ready to handle the situation at hand (however crazy it might be) definitely is one of the more empowering moments of a game to me. Granted that transition could've been developed a bit more gradually, but I still enjoyed that aspect of the game quite a bit.
Huggers
Member
Really good OP. Have to say though I found Tomb Raider DE incredibly forgettable. It starts off well but becomes monotonous and is too long. I would have much preferred a game based on puzzle solving and tomb explorstion/mystery etc. But I guess that would have struggled more sales wise. It all felt a little soul less to me. Will likely skip the sequel entirely. Especially as I don't have an Xbox yet
TheVampire
Banned
Fancy thread.