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Mad Men - Season 4 - Sundays on AMC

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Fuck me. That episode was perfection. Peggy and Don's relationship has always been the glue holding the show together for me, so to have an episode devoted to their interactions so intimately made for some of the most gripping television ever. Elisabeth Moss and John Hamm have such undeniable chemistry.

beelzebozo said:
well, to be honest, no, i never disliked him like i dislike him after watching him ream peggy this episode. i won't bother trying to explain why that is, beyond to say that i suppose a lot of the other things i can draw toward stupid lapses in judgment or human weakness or succumbing to temptation, like he had some major emotional problems or something. but him tearing down peggy seemed malicious and needlessly cruel, so yeah, i felt myself turn on him, finally.
I'm with Amir0x in finding it surprising this episode would push you over the edge. I think this was possibly the most sympathetic he has ever been.
 
Don does not take credit for other's work. He was right that Peggy had given him the kernel, and only the Danny incident, which was obviously an exception.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
Trident said:
Don is a terrible human being, but it's pretty clear he's NOT a homophobe. He saw Sal post-coital with some dude, and said nothing about it. He intentionally let Sal keep his dignity, safety, and job. Watch the scene where he fires Sal again. Don makes it pretty clear that he would have slept with a female client to keep her business and that he expects it the same from Sal as well. To deduce, solely from "you people," that he's a homophobe, despite all his past behavior, is really poor character reading.

And his tirade against Peggy this week was one of his most reasonable (albeit still not *actually* reasonable). Credit always goes to the person at top. That's how business works. In law, the trial attorney gets the reputation, even though most of the leg work is done by associates. On TV shows, directors/head writers get the credit even though they don't do the bulk of the writing. Peggy is one of the team members; Don is the leader. He gets the credit. But, like Don said, Peggy is young, and she will get her credit later when she rises up the ranks. That's the system, and Peggy doesn't get an exception.

But he should still say thank you.
i think this is spot on.

As for Don being a terrible human being, arent we all in some way? Its the thing that makes Don Draper not a cartoon. He loses his temper, says the wrong things sometimes, has an ego that borders on the humongous, and makes mistakes but in the end he mostly understands this after the fact and is shamed by it. At his core i think Don is just a guy who has this internal conflict that stems from how he was raised and what hes become. i wouldnt classify him as terrible, just human.

One of the things this episode did was cement the fact that he views Peggy very much as himself. The blow-up at her wasnt some kind of sexist cliche that it first appears. The truth is that if Peggy was a male character he would have said the exact same thing. And its also made clear that he respects her when Peggy informs him that the office thinks she slept with him to get the job. Its plain on his face that he never even considered that because to him that is an alien concept.. not because shes "average" looking as they talk about later in the episode, but because she really does has the talent and skill.

The relationship between Don and Peggy is one of the best in any medium. There is a lot of tension from the work they do and their "Master/Protege" pecking order but going back all the way to abortion there is a an understanding and tenderness there as well. Peggys "Thats not true" response to Dons description of who he lost wasnt just an empty kind word.
 
What a fantastic episode to catch up on. It took a while for the show to click for me but season 3 and 4 (so far) have really made me fall in love. With Peggy, especially. <3

beelzebozo said:
wow, i think i really dislike don now?
Really? Really? This is the first episode in quite a long time where I've felt anything for him other than vitrolic hate. He was riding Peggy because he was trying to keep himself occupied with work so he wouldn't have to face the death of his remaining connection to his former life. He didn't even know it was her birthday. The end of the episode felt like a turning point for his character and is possibly a wake up call for all the horrible shit he's done. I think we'll be seeing a different Don Draper from here on out....Maybe.

And, wow, I managed to write a whole paragraph defending Don Draper without throwing up.

water_wendi said:
As for Don being a terrible human being, arent we all in some way? Its the thing that makes Don Draper not a cartoon. He loses his temper, says the wrong things sometimes, has an ego that borders on the humongous, and makes mistakes but in the end he mostly understands this after the fact and is shamed by it. At his core i think Don is just a guy who has this internal conflict that stems from how he was raised and what hes become. i wouldnt classify him as terrible, just human.

I dont know about you mate, but I'm not a rampant misogynist, cheating, malicious, manipulative, hypocritical, homophobic, alcoholic douchebag.

Amir0x said:
But yeah if you watched the show for four seasons and don't think Don is a horrendous human being, that says something only about the people who think that, not Don Draper.

Exactly.
 

hamchan

Member
I really can't hold Don's homophobia against him though. Product of the times as they say.

I'm sure history will look back at us in 50 years time and declare us to be horrible people for ruining the environment.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
The Storyteller said:
I dont know about you mate, but I'm not a rampant misogynist, cheating, malicious, manipulative, hypocritical, homophobic, alcoholic douchebag.
You forgot coward (the Korean War switch) and family deserter (abandoning his brother). If i was watching the show and these traits were the only things i took away from Don Draper id probably stop because it would be like watching what amounts to a cartoon villain like Snidely Whiplash or Dick Dastardly. im not denying that those traits arent present in Don (malicious however i outright disagree with.. the only thing imo that borders on malice was when he snubbed his brother which led to Adams suicide.. which Don had changed his mind about and went to reconcile with even though it was too late) but those parts are half of the man as far as i see it.

About misogyny.. this is the trait that a lot of people put to Don that i dont really understand. What scenarios have shown that Don hates women? The most damning evidence for this is perhaps from Don listening in on Bettys psychiatrist conversations but given what we've come to understand about her its almost justified. Whether its from her sheltered life as a rich kid we dont really know but Betty is on the emotional level of a child.

There is also the issue of Peggy which Don was the only one in the office (even among the females) to take her talent seriously and give her a chance. i sincerely doubt that someone who was truly a misogynist would even fathom such an opportunity for a young woman to join an almost exclusive boys club.

Womanizer would be the label i would apply to Don over misogynist. The guy really lets his penis get the best of him.
 
I was pretty much throwing around as many adjectives as I could think of, so i'll have to think about the malicious one and get back to you.

I'll stand by misogynist, purely because coming up with an equal to womanizer when describing women who are like Don, would probably equate to slut. Which obviously does not have the same connotations. On top of that, he has constantly treated women he has slept with, like objects (shit). Allison is an obvious example, also in season 2 when he grabbed that women by the hair and forced himself on her. I dont think he hates women, but he certainly doesn't respect (most of) them.

anaron said:
Storyteller is finally on board! :)


:D
 

LCfiner

Member
Honestly, I think those pegging Don as a misogynist are thinking a little too narrowly.

he's a misanthropist. He doesn't really respect anyone whom he thinks is beneath him or is weak willed. he uses people, male and female, all the time. Anna was one of the few people he treated well and cared for ahead of himself.

The crazy thing is that, despite his prickishness, I still find myself feeling sympathetic toward the man. I can't help it. He's an asshole who's made his own personal mess but he has a quality that keeps me rooting for him and hoping that he'll find his way and succeed.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
LCfiner said:
The crazy thing is that, despite his prickishness, I still find myself feeling sympathetic toward the man. I can't help it. He's an asshole who's made his own personal mess but he has a quality that keeps me rooting for him and hoping that he'll find his way and succeed.
i think a big part of this comes from the fact that we as the audience can see he is genuine when he wants to change himself for the better. If it were just words someone told us in real life we wouldnt believe them but Don Draper as a character we know these things. When he wants to go back to Betty after his California adventures we know that feeling is genuine. When his third child is born and he is talking with the other father in the waiting room we know that Don truly agrees with him about being a better man. We know he realizes the mistake of shrugging off his brother albeit too late.

All of this makes him sympathetic where we want to see him succeed at doing the right thing. At least thats how i view it.
 

Amir0x

Banned
water_wendi said:
You forgot coward (the Korean War switch) and family deserter (abandoning his brother). If i was watching the show and these traits were the only things i took away from Don Draper id probably stop because it would be like watching what amounts to a cartoon villain like Snidely Whiplash or Dick Dastardly. im not denying that those traits arent present in Don (malicious however i outright disagree with.. the only thing imo that borders on malice was when he snubbed his brother which led to Adams suicide.. which Don had changed his mind about and went to reconcile with even though it was too late) but those parts are half of the man as far as i see it.

About misogyny.. this is the trait that a lot of people put to Don that i dont really understand. What scenarios have shown that Don hates women? The most damning evidence for this is perhaps from Don listening in on Bettys psychiatrist conversations but given what we've come to understand about her its almost justified. Whether its from her sheltered life as a rich kid we dont really know but Betty is on the emotional level of a child.

There is also the issue of Peggy which Don was the only one in the office (even among the females) to take her talent seriously and give her a chance. i sincerely doubt that someone who was truly a misogynist would even fathom such an opportunity for a young woman to join an almost exclusive boys club.

Womanizer would be the label i would apply to Don over misogynist. The guy really lets his penis get the best of him.

I mean there have been countless times when the way he has treated a female has been obscene. I can't even remember every single occassion.

When he finger bangs that comedian's wife as a show of dominance over her, and then treats her like a fucking whore when she doesn't shut up in bed?

When she sleeps with his secretary, and then also treats her like a common whore by completely ignoring it ever happens and essentially paying for the pleasure with her "bonus"?

The dude is without a doubt in my mind a misogynist as well as a womanizer, but in any case he is a bad dude.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
Amir0x said:
When he finger bangs that comedian's wife as a show of dominance over her, and then treats her like a fucking whore when she doesn't shut up in bed?
There is a reason Don hasnt done something like that to other women. Bobbie Barrett was a very sexually aggressive older woman who knew what she wanted and took what she pleased. It was a power game between them from the start. You have to remember that their sexual relationship started when she showed dominance over him earlier that same episode during the hailstorm ("I dont want to do this" "Doesnt feel that way") and he was returning the favor.

oh7nl0.jpg


When she sleeps with his secretary, and then also treats her like a common whore by completely ignoring it ever happens and essentially paying for the pleasure with her "bonus"?
He was drunk off of his ass, made a huge mistake and tried to get out of it. You are right it was a insensitive thing to do and majorly shitty. We do know a couple things though. Don has tried to keep his sexual exploits from his coworkers. He even hates the lewd locker room talk. When in the office he is generally all business. We also know that he realizes that shitting where he eats was a huge misstep and that Joan got him "exactly what he needed" in reference to his new secretary.

Its funny but now that i think about it has he ever slept with any of his secretaries? The entire office thinks he goes after every woman in the office (including Peggy) but we know thats not the case.
 

beelzebozo

Jealous Bastard
Spotless Mind said:
I'm with Amir0x in finding it surprising this episode would push you over the edge. I think this was possibly the most sympathetic he has ever been.

i typed that as a reaction to him reducing peggy to tears; as i expressed it, she was standing in the bathroom crying. it definitely turned that completely on its head almost immediately after. that scene in the diner almost struck me like one of those times when a couple has had this horrible fight, and are so exhausted after that they're ready to just try and forget it, and duck out to the waffle house to eat hash browns and then go home and crash to let those problems fester for another day.

whatever the case, i won't deny and never have that don has done some absolutely reprehensible things, but for whatever reason--maybe, as someone mentioned earlier, it's that we get a direct window into his internal struggle and see a real desire for change--i cannot resign myself to completely giving up or turning on him. the reaction i had to his deconstruction of peggy is completely personal, as some part of me is willing to accept when he philanders or ignores people who care about him that these are standard shitty things to which a fundamentally good person is capable of succumbing (not that don is fundamentally a good person, of course). but there is a difference to me between setting someone straight and just being cruel, and that cruelty was even more poignant to me because it was directed at someone who so clearly did not deserve it. as i said, that turned by the end of the episode, with this almost rubber band snapback effect of the two of them bonding in a way that they perhaps never have before, so i'm not sure what to make of him.

anyway, i'm not sure how my reaction to that became this referendum on don draper or on my emotional reaction to the character. i root for him to get it together because i feel he's pretty twisted inside emotionally, and in many respects is shackled by the folkways and mores of his time. it doesn't excuse who he is, but it helps explain it, and that at least gives me a continual source of empathy for him.
 
Don is far too complex of a character to just label. He has a lot of bad traits, and has done plenty of bad things, but he is not simply a bad man. He certainly is redeemable, anyway.

Don treats most everyone like shit, not just woman or gays or his children (which still for whatever reason love to spend time with him even if it means they watch TV while he works). But he treats everyone like an individual. So, I think labeling him a opportunistic misanthrope is more accurate than anything, but in no way comprehensive.

Doing the good and right thing is not easy for anyone, add on Don's upbringing and youth and that only makes it harder.

He has shown he can grow, and even wants to, which is what makes him someone to root for.
 
VistraNorrez said:
Don treats most everyone like shit, not just woman or gays or his children (which still for whatever reason love to spend time with him even if it means they watch TV while he works). But he treats everyone like an individual.
This is it.

Also, he's not Don Draper, he's Dick Whitman pretending to be Don Draper. He puts up a shield by being a dick. The whole first season was about showing you that this is a different guy than he seems in the office with reasons for his behavior, other than the rampant adultery.
 
LCfiner said:
The crazy thing is that, despite his prickishness, I still find myself feeling sympathetic toward the man. I can't help it. He's an asshole who's made his own personal mess but he has a quality that keeps me rooting for him and hoping that he'll find his way and succeed.

I feel it's because even though he assumes this other identity (Draper), he's one of those characters where he knows he can be full of shit, for lack of a better phrase, and is self-aware enough that he is never really in denial about it. That's why I still get behind Draper even despite his mistakes and actions. He's going through these moments in his life that bring him to a downward spiral, and although at times it would appear his increase in drinking might be a way of feeling sorry for himself about it, I get this realization in him that HE realizes he needs to get his shit together and pick himself up. Basically, he tries for himself. It's just that he isn't trying hard enough.

As sad as it was, Anna's death might certainly have been a wake-up call, and in her death he has now found a new companion, a new "Anna" in Peggy, who might come off as hesitant, but I think Don respects that she stays true to herself above all else.
 

Coldsnap

Member
Don response to "She's in a better place" is some of the best acting I've seen on a Television show. That scene was a little too close to home to me, it gave me goosebumps.
 
Coldsnap said:
Don response to "She's in a better place" is some of the best acting I've seen on a Television show. That scene was a little too close to home to me, it gave me goosebumps.
"That's what they say."

:(
 

Snuggles

erotic butter maelstrom
Just caught the new episode last night, and wow that was one of the most emotional episodes of Mad Men yet. Hamm and Mitchell were so good, I almost got misty eyed in the final scene.
Also, I hope that was the goodbye episode for Mark and Duck aka my most hated Mad Men characters. Is Mark played by the same awkward dude as Karl from Lost?
Ah he is, so I officially hate every character I've seen him play.
 

Salsa

Member
Is this thread spoiler tagged ? im scared :p

Anyways, was gonna make a thread but meh, just started season 1. 5 episodes in and wow, simply loving it. Should have gotten into it earlier since it always seemed like my kind of show. So good :D
 

Snuggles

erotic butter maelstrom
No spoiler tags, son. You best get yo ass out of here, no sense in having plot points spoiled for you.

Don just got killed in a brutal drive by shooting this episode, so that's ruined for you.
 

Salsa

Member
Snuggler said:
No spoiler tags, son. You best get yo ass out of here, no sense in having plot points spoiled for you.

Don just got killed in a brutal drive by shooting this episode, so that's ruined for you.

lol thanks, im out


ill be back
 

LM4sure

Banned
Snuggler said:
Just caught the new episode last night, and wow that was one of the most emotional episodes of Mad Men yet. Hamm and Mitchell were so good, I almost got misty eyed in the final scene.
Also, I hope that was the goodbye episode for Mark and Duck aka my most hated Mad Men characters. Is Mark played by the same awkward dude as Karl from Lost?
Ah he is, so I officially hate every character I've seen him play.

You don't like Duck? He's awesome. When he took Don down, that was hilarious! And then Don says uncle. What a wimp! :lol
 

Snuggles

erotic butter maelstrom
LM4sure said:
You don't like Duck? He's awesome. When he took Don down, that was hilarious! And then Don says uncle. What a wimp! :lol

If Don wasn't so shitfaced he would have punched Duck's face in.

I dunno, he's just a snake...the kind of guy that would screw over everyone else to get ahead. I thought it was really gross when he was banging Peggy, she could do better. Plus, I just don't like his face. I'm just glad he's on a downward spiral.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Snuggler said:
If Don wasn't so shitfaced he would have punched Duck's face in.

I dunno, he's just a snake...the kind of guy that would screw over everyone else to get ahead. I thought it was really gross when he was banging Peggy, she could do better. Plus, I just don't like his face. I'm just glad he's on a downward spiral.

would he have? Duck really did go to Okinawa and have real combat experience, whereas Don fled Korea.

I think he would have got beat either way, but the crucial point was that he gave in not as some sign of weakness, but rather out of respect for Peggy imo.
 
What're the rules for potential actors returning as spoilers?

Can I spoiler tag something like that or just leave it out of the topic entirely?
 
Cornballer said:
There's one casting note that's more or less confirmed. Spoiler tags would probably be best for that sort of thing. Here's a link. *casting spoilers*

This is what I'm talking about.

The return of my favorite character on the show, more so than Don. I'm so fucking excited
 

Mindlog

Member
Cornballer said:
There's one casting note that's more or less confirmed. Spoiler tags would probably be best for that sort of thing. *casting spoilers*

I can't wait. The show just keeps on giving. It's getting ridiculous at this point :lol
 

Spire

Subconscious Brolonging
chaoticprout said:
This is what I'm talking about.

The return of my favorite character on the show, more so than Don. I'm so fucking excited

The off balance washing machine?
 

Amir0x

Banned
ghstwrld said:
:lol

He can't even spend time with her.

seriously. He might make a colorful peacock-esque display of protecting his daughter, but I don't think he actually knows how to do anything for his kids.
 

hamchan

Member
Amir0x said:
seriously. He might make a colorful peacock-esque display of protecting his daughter, but I don't think he actually knows how to do anything for his kids.

He still loves his children very much, much more than Betty that's for sure.
 
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