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[Amir0x]

He still loves his children very much, much more than Betty that's for sure.

Even Betty showed up his parenting skills when he forgot to pick up his children.

Really, there is no proof that he loves his kids more or less than Betty. Betty is a child herself, but she is still doing the essential day-to-day for the kids, cold as she is, whereas Don is an absentee father 99.9% of the time and on top of not showing any emotional attachment, he can't even perform his basic duties.

This idea MAD MEN fans have that Don is somehow a better parent or has more "love" for his kids is borne out of the irrational hatred people have for January Jones and the scenes she has as Betty, because so many people who watch the show want her written out (because they're dumb).

As the show is written, Don is no better than Betty as a parent. Occasionally saying "I need to spend more time with my kids" to one his marks does not a good/caring parent make. They're both abysmal.

 

[mrklaw]

quick question - this has started on the BBC (last night) but I didn't catch up with the previous seasons. Can I jump in, or should I watch from the beginning?

 

[water_wendi]

quick question - this has started on the BBC (last night) but I didn't catch up with the previous seasons. Can I jump in, or should I watch from the beginning?

The beginning. This isnt CSI.

 

[Salazar]

http://acephalous.typepad.com/acephalous/2010/09/mad-men-in-the-suitcase.html

Scott Kauffman's analysis of "The Suitcase". He is spot-on about a couple of things.

 

[giga]

quick question - this has started on the BBC (last night) but I didn't catch up with the previous seasons. Can I jump in, or should I watch from the beginning?

Beginning. It's meaningless if you aren't familiar with the developments from the past seasons.

 

[hamchan]

Even Betty showed up his parenting skills when he forgot to pick up his children.

Really, there is no proof that he loves his kids more or less than Betty. Betty is a child herself, but she is still doing the essential day-to-day for the kids, cold as she is, whereas Don is an absentee father 99.9% of the time and on top of not showing any emotional attachment, he can't even perform his basic duties.

This idea MAD MEN fans have that Don is somehow a better parent or has more "love" for his kids is borne out of the irrational hatred people have for January Jones and the scenes she has as Betty, because so many people who watch the show want her written out (because they're dumb).

As the show is written, Don is no better than Betty as a parent. Occasionally saying "I need to spend more time with my kids" to one his marks does not a good/caring parent make. They're both abysmal.

I know he's an abysmal parent, I didn't say he wasn't.

I do remember him this season saying something to the effect like "I love my kids but when I have time with them I don't take care of them properly but when they leave I immediately start missing them", something similar to that.

I just feel much more love from him than from Betty and I think the kids can feel that too. I think that's the reason why they hate Betty yet love Don. He's currently a bad parent but when his life starts going back up, which it eventually will, I have hope that he'll start being a better parent too.

 

[mrklaw]

ok, thanks.

 

[Amir0x]

I know he's an abysmal parent, I didn't say he wasn't.

I do remember him this season saying something to the effect like "I love my kids but when I have time with them I don't take care of them properly but when they leave I immediately start missing them", something similar to that.

Like I said...

Occasionally saying "I need to spend more time with my kids" to one his marks does not a good/caring parent make.

...to boot, actions speak WAY louder than words. Don may want to spend more time with his kids, but Betty is ACTUALLY spending more time with the kids. Even the cold, distant Betty still feeds them, clothes them, brings them to school and deals with parents, homework and any other activities.

This is far more in action than Don has ever done, even when he was living there.

Betty is a bad parent. An infant, trapped by her irrational needs and the way she was house broken. But Don is a worse parent.

I just feel much more love from him than from Betty and I think the kids can feel that too. I think that's the reason why they hate Betty yet love Don. He's currently a bad parent but when his life starts going back up, which it eventually will, I have hope that he'll start being a better parent too.

The kids are kids. They think Betty took Don away from them.

 

[hamchan]

...to boot, actions speak WAY louder than words. Don may want to spend more time with his kids, but Betty is ACTUALLY spending more time with the kids. Even the cold, distant Betty still feeds them, clothes them, brings them to school and deals with parents, homework and any other activities.

This is far more in action than Don has ever done, even when he was living there.

Betty is a bad parent. An infant, trapped by her irrational needs and the way she was house broken. But Don is a worse parent.

The Dursleys took care of Harry Potter too, doesn't mean they loved him at all. Also I guess it's part of her job to take care of the kids. She's a housewife, of course she'll have more time with them.

Let's just say I have much more hope for Don to become a better parent than for Betty.

 

[water_wendi]

The Dursleys took care of Harry Potter too, doesn't mean they loved him at all. Also I guess it's part of her job to take care of the kids. She's a housewife, of course she'll have more time with them.

Let's just say I have much more hope for Don to become a better parent than for Betty.

i can agree with this.

im seriously trying to remember all the times where Betty was the one mainly taking care of things. i know shes a housewife but she leaves an awful lot up to the houseworker. i mean, Betty didnt even take Sally to the child psychiatrist and had Carla do it instead. It would be nice to think that she is with Bobby helping him with his times tables but i envision Betty suited up and jumping horses instead.

 

[ghstwrld]

What ever happened to baby Gene?

 

[water_wendi]

What ever happened to baby Gene?

Carla. Dont know about Thanksgiving dinner though. Little kids table? :lol

 

[Catalix]

I think we can all agree Carla is the better parent.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I think we can all agree Carla is the better parent.

Strange question, why don't her kids ever interact with the Draper kids? Was that too taboo for the time?

 

[Vyer]

...to boot, actions speak WAY louder than words. Don may want to spend more time with his kids, but Betty is ACTUALLY spending more time with the kids. Even the cold, distant Betty still feeds them, clothes them, brings them to school and deals with parents, homework and any other activities.

This is far more in action than Don has ever done, even when he was living there.

Betty is a bad parent. An infant, trapped by her irrational needs and the way she was house broken. But Don is a worse parent.
.

They are both pretty horrible. But Betty as just as absent even though she's physically present; the maid does all the work.

I don't know what January Jones thing you are talking about (something I've missed from earlier threads?), but I love the actress. If we are just talking about the Betty character, it's hard for me to agree that she is inherently a 'better parent' than Don. They both seem pretty bad.

The show seems to make a point of showing that Don has affection for his children, he just sucks at doing any parenting. Betty seems to suck at parenting, and rarely even shows any love for them.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I love Sad Don Draper. Hit and miss, but some are golden.

http://saddondraper.tumblr.com/post/1088146564/don-don-don-don-don-don-don-don-don

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Regarding the above spoilered speculation things:

Spoiler

I have had, in my head, the following scenario. SCDP grows more and more successful over the year, and then Lucky Strike pulls out, crippling them. Either because of some personal thing, or because they ad spending goes to nil when cigarette ads are pulled from TV. That leaves room for Sal to come back, also provides more drama as SCDP tries to survive losing their golden child, and also throws Roger into a crisis.

I hope it plays out nothing like this above though, as it all seems a bit too "on the nose" as they say. This show usually isn't anywhere nearly this obvious.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

http://acephalous.typepad.com/acephalous/2010/09/mad-men-in-the-suitcase.html

Scott Kauffman's analysis of "The Suitcase". He is spot-on about a couple of things.

Interesting.

I do note that he muses on the fact that the SCDP crowd aren't seeing the fight in person. That's because the fight happened in Maine. I think it was just a bit of a historical nod.

Looks like Don made it ringside, though.

 

[sooperkool]

if peggy ever tells him that pete knocked her up. Don would drop him out of a window. he would also do anything for his daughter.

This had me laughing out loud at work. but its true.

 

[gdt]

Thats so true. I await the day when Peggy tells Don that Pete was the father.

With bated breath.

 

[Learn2read]

After seeing that pic of January Jones in the new Xmen movie, has it ever been mentioned if that's the reason for her lack of screentime this season? It never occurred to me that it wasn't just the natural result of their their characters' separation and reflected real-world scheduling.

 

[ollin]

After seeing that pic of January Jones in the new Xmen movie, has it ever been mentioned if that's the reason for her lack of screentime this season? It never occurred to me that it wasn't just the natural result of their their characters' separation and reflected real-world scheduling.

I'm pretty sure filming for the fourth season is over by now so that wouldn't be the reason.

 

[gdt]

XMen has nothing to do with Betty's low screen time this season.

 

[Talon]

What ever happened to baby Gene?

We saw him playing with his toys in "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword." He's 1 and a half now.

 

[Wads]

Ads seen this season:

http://blogs.amctv.com/photo-galleries/sterling-cooper-draper-pryce-portfolio/jantzen.php

Some more in here:

(Here's Don's play-doh ad):

http://blogs.amctv.com/photo-galleries/mad-men-season-4-scrapbook/play-doh.php

:lol

Just saw this. Pretty funny!

 

[Amir0x]

The Dursleys took care of Harry Potter too, doesn't mean they loved him at all. Also I guess it's part of her job to take care of the kids. She's a housewife, of course she'll have more time with them.

Let's just say I have much more hope for Don to become a better parent than for Betty.

Betty may be the Dursley's, and Don is still yet WORSE than the Dursley's. That's the point. They're both terrible parents, but Don is unarguably worse.

I cannot conceive of a single argument at all to favor Don as a parent. He does literally nothing at all, is emotionally detached to the extreme and only occasionally bobs his head sagely in the knowledge he should do more. Only he never, ever does. Ever.

Example of the ridiculous double standard of MAD MEN viewers:

im seriously trying to remember all the times where Betty was the one mainly taking care of things. i know shes a housewife but she leaves an awful lot up to the houseworker. i mean, Betty didnt even take Sally to the child psychiatrist and had Carla do it instead. It would be nice to think that she is with Bobby helping him with his times tables but i envision Betty suited up and jumping horses instead.

For some reason, Betty gets slammed for not taking Sally to the psychiatrist - yet neither did Don. And neither did Don do absolutely anything else, ever. Betty actually does do things for the kids, even if she also lets the housekeeper shoulder much of the burden.

The biggest thing Don did for the kids was buy them a dog, and that was only after he literally ABANDONED HIS OWN DAUGHTERS BIRTHDAY PARTY TO GET DRUNK.

I mean, seriously? Are we even entertaining the idea that Don is a better parent?

Betty is a terrible parent, but Don is worse.

 

[Snuggles]

Speaking of Betty, I miss her. She hasn't had much to do this season aside from occasionally popping in to nag at Donny.
This season has been great aside from the lack of January Jones, I love her so much. Someday she will be my wife.

 

[dave is ok]

Betty is a worse parent than Don. Saying otherwise is foolish.

Don is far from a great dad, but come on - he's never locked the kids in the closet or hit them.

 

[maharg]

Don isn't really a parent at all. That doesn't make him a worse one, but his value in the kids' lives is virtually nil (or the extent of his positive influence is being so absent that he by default seems like a better parent than the one who's actually there and has to discipline them).

 

[Amir0x]

Betty is a worse parent than Don. Saying otherwise is foolish.

Don is far from a great dad, but come on - he's never locked the kids in the closet or hit them.

wow she slapped her kid, how horrible!? Betty fucking caught her nine year old SMOKING CIGARETTES. Whether it was an overreaction or not, the point is Betty tried to discipline her at all. There was action, effort. Don does nothing, participates in nothing, meanwhile Betty often cooked and cleaned (for example, one time her father scolded her for doing the dishes "because that's what the maid is for") and got the kids ready for school, events and often took them out.

Yet Betty IS a terrible parent. But the idea that Don is better is hilarious. Don has done absolutely NOTHING, EVER, NOT EVEN ONCE. The only thing he's ever done is abandon his daughters birthday party (TO GET DRUNK), forget to pick the kids up, do every form of lie, cheat and bullshit to destroy the marriage, grab's Betty and calls her a whore which woke the baby up (who was in the same fucking room!), ignore her daughter's performance to drool over her teacher and then proceed to have an elicit affair with her, the list goes on.

There is no argument to support that Don is a better parent. MAD MEN viewers are either blind or have the most terrible double standard either: the idea that a mother who is more involved but does some things wrong is worse than a MAN who does nothing. It's fucking 1950s mentality, that it's a wife's job to raise the kid, and it's not so bad when a MAN does nothing

 

[Snuggles]

Don isn't really a parent at all. That doesn't make him a worse one, but his value in the kids' lives is virtually nil (or the extent of his positive influence is being so absent that he by default seems like a better parent than the one who's actually there and has to discipline them).

Yeah, this is what I was gonna say. It's a stretch just to call him a parent, he's an absentee father. At least Betty is still taking care of the children, her questionable parenting is at least partially due to the fact that she's a frustrated single parent who probably resents the fact that their father was unwilling to help raise the children. She's not a perfect but I'm pro-Betty all the way.

Still love Don, though, who couldn't?

 

[Stallion Free]

It's fucking 1950s mentality, that it's a wife's job to raise the kid, and it's not so bad when a MAN does nothing

The show is really immersive, we can't help getting sucked into the belief's from the time :lol

 

[CajoleJuice]

I like how the post from maharg says the same thing as Amirox's without going insane.

 

[anaron]

Yeah I've often found the fanbase incredibly stilted when it comes to the parenting of Don and Betty. Don is always excused from anything because he's shown more obvious affection for his children whilst you know, NEVER BEING AROUND FOR THEM.

Still love Don, though, who couldn't?

*raises hand*

 

[Snuggles]

I like how the post from maharg says the same thing as Amirox's without going insane.

I appreciate his enthusiasm.

 

[Talon]

Yeah I've often found the fanbase incredibly stilted when it comes to the parenting of Don and Betty. Don is always excused from anything because he's shown more obvious affection for his children whilst you know, NEVER BEING AROUND FOR THEM.

The road to failure is paved with good intentions.

See: Don in the waiting room during Gene's birth.

 

[dave is ok]

wow she slapped her kid, how horrible!? Betty fucking caught her nine year old SMOKING CIGARETTES. Whether it was an overreaction or not, the point is Betty tried to discipline her at all. There was action, effort. Don does nothing, participates in nothing, meanwhile Betty often cooked and cleaned (for example, one time her father scolded her for doing the dishes "because that's what the maid is for") and got the kids ready for school, events and often took them out.

Yet Betty IS a terrible parent. But the idea that Don is better is hilarious. Don has done absolutely NOTHING, EVER, NOT EVEN ONCE. The only thing he's ever done is abandon his daughters birthday party (TO GET DRUNK), forget to pick the kids up, do every form of lie, cheat and bullshit to destroy the marriage, grab's Betty and calls her a whore which woke the baby up (who was in the same fucking room!), ignore her daughter's performance to drool over her teacher and then proceed to have an elicit affair with her, the list goes on.

This just isn't true. The cooking/cleaning was just a woman's job in 1960 - it's not like Don is being negligent, his job was to work and provide. The show has made a point to show Don getting into bed with his scared daughter or get up in the middle of the night to feed the baby - while also making a point to show Betty locking Sally in the closet and shoving food into her mouth at a family dinner. It's pretty clear that Weiner wants the audience to believe that Betty is a very bad mom, and Don is better for the kids - in spite of his fucked up lifestyle. The fact they used his forgetting about picking up the kids, or going on a date when he was supposed to be watching him to show us how bad his drinking/depression has gotten only reinforces this.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

The biggest thing Don did for the kids was buy them a dog, and that was only after he literally ABANDONED HIS OWN DAUGHTERS BIRTHDAY PARTY TO NEARLY ATTEMPT SUICIDE.

The double standard may arise from the fact that it's Betty's primary job to be a parent, not Don's. In this culture, he has less of a burden. Yes, he's still bad at it, but Betty being bad at it has worse repercussions.

This is not the post-80's equal-parenting scenario we have now. Betty is the primary caretaker, and horrible. I'd argue that when Don does have the kids, they are better off if only because they lack the negative influences of Betty. As bad as distant may be, terrifying is worse.

 

[VeryGooster]

The show is really immersive, we can't help getting sucked into the belief's from the time :lol

Seriously. If I was ever reprimanded for having a cigarette and scotch inside an office in 2010, I'd probably be confused for a second and wonder what the problem was. :lol

Also, as far as Don and Betty as parents go, Don is negligent, but Betty is abusive. That's how I see it anyway.

Combined with Betty's really aggravatingly narrow-minded view of how life should be (not just hers), it's some times no surprise we can get behind Don even as a bad parent.

Edit:
Saw this via the Mad Men Twitter:
AMC Blog: 1960s Handbook: Cassius Clay & Sonny Liston

 

[water_wendi]

For some reason, Betty gets slammed for not taking Sally to the psychiatrist - yet neither did Don. And neither did Don do absolutely anything else, ever.

Its hard to get mad at Don for not taking Sally to the psychiatrist because 1) Don didnt want Sally to go see a psychiatrist and, more importantly, 2) Betty has custody.

I mean, seriously? Are we even entertaining the idea that Don is a better parent?

Betty is a terrible parent, but Don is worse.

They are both bad parents but i think Don is the better one solely on the fact that he realizes he is a bad parent whereas Betty seems to wonder why the kids dont act like dolls. Bettys new mother-in-law called it when she pointed out that the kids are in mortal fear of their mother. If things keep going this way i expect a Mommie Dearest "No wire hangers!" moment from Betty next season.

 

[maharg]

AMC Blog: 1960s Handbook: Cassius Clay & Sonny Liston

By the way, here's video of the fight in question. Surprisingly good quality, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzWynvBLJ4I&feature=related

 

[Cornballer]

- USA Today on Blankenship: Randee Heller brings 'Mad Men' secretary to comedic life

 

[VeryGooster]

USA Today on Blankenship

Funny. In her second episode appearance I posted about how sick I was of her already, but even though we're approaching episode eight now, I think she's been used as effectively as possible and I find her funny again.

And yeah, the gag where she announces people already in Don's office. :lol

 

[S1lent]

Put me firmly in the "Don is a better parent than Betty" camp. They are both horrible parents, of course, but Don shows a genuine love for his children that Betty simply does not seem to possess (at least after they grow old enough to speak). And the kids recognize that. One of the biggest examples of this is the episode in which Sally is afraid of baby Gene and Betty just gets angry at her while Don comforts her and sits with her holding the baby. And as someone else mentioned, Don recognizes that he is a shitty parent and knows he should do better. Betty honestly believes she is a great parent and is utterly confused and angered that Sally is acting out.

To join the broader debate about Don's character: He's certainly a bad person, but he is an incredibly sympathetic one as well. For one, his horrible childhood makes you feel for him, and his "self made man" characteristic makes you root for him. I mean, can anyone honestly say they didn't want to do a fist pump when he told Campbell in season one "You've never worked for anything in your life!" as Campbell was attempting to black mail him?

And despite his countless transgressions, the show has also been filled with small scenes in which Don has shown hints of a genuinely good human being--the moment with Sally mentioned above, the time when he chewed out the guys at the office for making fun of Freddy Rumsen's piss incident, when he defended Peggy against Duck in the latest episode, when he was clearly unamused by Roger's black face performance while others around him laughed, his mea culpa to Peggy "I will spend the rest of my life trying to hire you" (though not without self interest there too), etc etc etc. Hell, the very first scene of the show is him treating a black man as an equal, which we of course find nothing heroic about until this draws the ire of the man's employer and we are reminded that this is the 1960s, and that what Don is doing may actually be pretty admirable for the time.

To say that Don's just a dick and we're supposed to hate him is a gross oversimplification, and one that really doesn't do justice to his character at all. That's my two cents.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Put me firmly in the "Don is a better parent than Betty" camp. They are both horrible parents, of course, but Don shows a genuine love for his children that Betty simply does not seem to possess (at least after they grow old enough to speak). And the kids recognize that. One of the biggest examples of this is the episode in which Sally is afraid of baby Gene and Betty just gets angry at her while Don comforts her and sits with her holding the baby. And as someone else mentioned, Don recognizes that he is a shitty parent and knows he should do better. Betty honestly believes she is a great parent and is utterly confused and angered that Sally is acting out.

To join the broader debate about Don's character: He's certainly a bad person, but he is an incredibly sympathetic one as well. For one, his horrible childhood makes you feel for him, and his "self made man" characteristic makes you root for him. I mean, can anyone honestly say they didn't want to do a fist pump when he told Campbell in season one "You've never worked for anything in your life!" as Campbell was attempting to black mail him?

And despite his countless transgressions, the show has also been filled with small scenes in which Don has shown hints of a genuinely good human being--the moment with Sally mentioned above, the time when he chewed out the guys at the office for making fun of Freddy Rumsen's piss incident, when he defended Peggy against Duck in the latest episode, when he was clearly unamused by Roger's black face performance while others around him laughed, his mea culpa to Peggy "I will spend the rest of my life trying to hire you" (though not without self interest there too), etc etc etc. Hell, the very first scene of the show is him treating a black man as an equal, which we of course find nothing heroic about until this draws the ire of the man's employer and we are reminded that this is the 1960s, and that what Don is doing may actually be pretty admirable for the time.

To say that Don's just a dick and we're supposed to hate him is a gross oversimplification, and one that really doesn't do justice to his character at all. That's my two cents.

What a great summary. And it's that conflict between the sympathetic and the slimeball that makes the show go. And makes this season particularly painful.

 

[i_am_ben]

yes, Don is far more sympathetic than Betty and the fact that he is boggles the mind.

 

[hamchan]

Put me firmly in the "Don is a better parent than Betty" camp. They are both horrible parents, of course, but Don shows a genuine love for his children that Betty simply does not seem to possess (at least after they grow old enough to speak). And the kids recognize that. One of the biggest examples of this is the episode in which Sally is afraid of baby Gene and Betty just gets angry at her while Don comforts her and sits with her holding the baby. And as someone else mentioned, Don recognizes that he is a shitty parent and knows he should do better. Betty honestly believes she is a great parent and is utterly confused and angered that Sally is acting out.

To join the broader debate about Don's character: He's certainly a bad person, but he is an incredibly sympathetic one as well. For one, his horrible childhood makes you feel for him, and his "self made man" characteristic makes you root for him. I mean, can anyone honestly say they didn't want to do a fist pump when he told Campbell in season one "You've never worked for anything in your life!" as Campbell was attempting to black mail him?

And despite his countless transgressions, the show has also been filled with small scenes in which Don has shown hints of a genuinely good human being--the moment with Sally mentioned above, the time when he chewed out the guys at the office for making fun of Freddy Rumsen's piss incident, when he defended Peggy against Duck in the latest episode, when he was clearly unamused by Roger's black face performance while others around him laughed, his mea culpa to Peggy "I will spend the rest of my life trying to hire you" (though not without self interest there too), etc etc etc. Hell, the very first scene of the show is him treating a black man as an equal, which we of course find nothing heroic about until this draws the ire of the man's employer and we are reminded that this is the 1960s, and that what Don is doing may actually be pretty admirable for the time.

To say that Don's just a dick and we're supposed to hate him is a gross oversimplification, and one that really doesn't do justice to his character at all. That's my two cents.

Excellent post. What you just typed is also a perfect summation of what makes Don such a fascinating character to watch.

 

[Cornballer]

New episode tonight.

The Summer Man

Spoiler

Peggy and Joan must deal with questionable activities at the office. Miss. Blankenship returns to the office after having surgery on her eyes.

 

[sixteen-bit]

MM definitely takes priority over the VMAs

 

[Sapiens]

New episode tonight.

Ooh, a Miss

Spoiler

Blankenship

episode.