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Magic mushrooms lift severe depression in clinical trial
- Thread starter ponpo
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NoblesseOblige
Banned
I don't see it becoming mainstream medicine until you isolate the depression fighting component from the cognitive impairing aspects. And I'm uncertain if that's even possible since my guess is they are one in the same.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Not surprising. That schedule 1 bullshit has probably held back many advances in neuropsychopharmacology.
Other studies on ketamine are also very interesting and positive.
Obviously, the end goal is unraveling the biochemical process for a drug you can take without much of the side effects or trip.
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/ketamine-lifts-depression-byproduct-its-metabolism
Other studies on ketamine are also very interesting and positive.
Obviously, the end goal is unraveling the biochemical process for a drug you can take without much of the side effects or trip.
At least for ketamine there is something.
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/ketamine-lifts-depression-byproduct-its-metabolism
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
Break down what you are saying like I am 5.
There are lots of medicine & treatments already that have "cognitive impairing aspects" and that hasn't prevented them from being generally accepted treatment methods.
SallyIsNow
Banned
Unless they isolate the depression fighting part from the trippy part this won't become a mainstrean alternative to antidepressants.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I don't even know what I'm saying. I'm not a biochemist or anything. I just assume that there is a substance found in the drug which triggers both the depression fighting ability and the hallucination/cognitive impairment. Until that can be separated I don't think it can be mainstream prescribed since you wouldn't want people operating with their perception impaired. But then again maybe if it's in an extremely low enough dose then the negative impacts aren't functionally detrimental, while benefits do present themselves.
Vincent Grayson
Member
Basically, you can't be tripping balls all day, that wouldn't go well.
But if I understand the idea properly, you wouldn't use it like a traditional depression medication (ie, on a regular basis, every day), but rather it's a tool to trigger a therapeutic experience that ideally will allow you to deal with issues plaguing you, and perhaps lead to beating your depression.
At least from my own personal experiences with shrooms, LSD, and ecstasy, it seems like a viable solution. I've dealt with some big stuff over the years by taking a little trip and working through it all during/after. Hell, I credit a good acid trip with changing my entire attitude towards my marriage and making it work again (and improve).
Jzero
Member
It's definitely the mind trip that changes you. It makes you realize that your life isn't really that bad and other people in the world have it much worse that you.
It's a shame the effects aren't permanent though. The depression may come creeping back a year later.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
I can totally see this in a clinical setting like in the study as an intermediary step between drug development for those in need.
I'm glad this research is beginning to gain exposure. Psychedelics have a profound potential, and further research into the pharmaceutical benefits of these compounds could really benefit the mental health community. There's a ridiculous cultural and scientific stigma attached to these substances, so I fully support communities and organisations such as MAPS, Zendo, Erowid and more in educating people about the effects of these drugs.
Vincent Grayson
Member
I like to imagine a future where you hire on a trip guide for your patients who builds music playlists, compiles imagery, etc, all to guide each person on the ideal trip for dealing with what ails them.
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
Turn on, tune in, and drop out.
I guess it's no coincidence that mindfulness meditation is gaining more and more support in the scientific world as well. Sounds to me like both psychedelic drugs and meditation ultimately point towards the same thing - a new way of perceiving yourself and the world around you.
Really interesting development, considering that these things came up and in the 1960s and are now being rediscovered.
Really interesting development, considering that these things came up and in the 1960s and are now being rediscovered.
Snkfanatic
Banned
My first thought was the negative effects on people that are in a bad state of mind at the time of ingestion but I guess they didn't have any bad reactions going by the last quoted line in the OP.
Interesting.
Interesting.
Finn of Ooo
Member
Disclaimer: I am not a scientist or mental health specialist, but I have done mushrooms a few times.
My thoughts are, the perspective shift you get from the experience of the trip allows you to view the root of your depression from a new perspective and aids in the treatment of the root mental (not chemical) cause of the depression. So I agree with you, I think the package as a whole is what's responsible for helping.
StrawberryJam
Member
Give me that shit, pronto.
WorriedCitizen
Member
The "cognitive impairing" aspect (i really wouldn't call it that tho) most likely IS what's fighting the depression tho. Tripping balls on shrooms forces you to face your own devils, allows you to reflect on your own life from an outside perspective and the feeling of "everything is love" on a good trip leaves a lasting impression.
But yea it's probably not gonna be mainstream medicine anytime soon. Just popping them like a pill with depression is a recipe for desaster. This will only work in accord with psychotherapy and strict supervision by an experienced trip guide/doctor.
QuantumZebra
Member
You would be correct.
The experience of "tripping" on mushrooms itself brings a fucking truckload of clarity.
It's hard to explain until you've tried it.
My wife used to be more introverted and judgmental, and honest to god after she tried shrooms (just once) it changed her - permanently. We spent a good 6 hours deconstructing everything we were, thought we were, and thought other people were.
It's an amazing substance, and a damn shame more people won't get to experience it.
I'm not kidding when I say if every person on earth tripped at least once, we would see far fewer violent crimes and prejudiced people in the world.
Precisely.
That would be incredible. I used to just "set the mood" with relaxed lighting and concert DVDs of stuff like Pink Floyd, Porcupine Tree, Audioslave, etc...
--
Side observation: for anyone wondering - LSD brings about the same sort of clarity, but in a more abstract way. Shrooms have a more organic "love" feeling and aftereffect, whereas LSD has a more "alternative way of looking at the world" feeling. Just from my own experience, that is.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I should have said cognitive altering rather than impairing. I used that word because my limited experience with mushrooms has been with those around me taking them, and they had turned from people I could trust to people I had to steal their car keys from because I wasn't able to trust them to drive a vehicle. Personally I've learned to deal with my depression without the need of any substance through thorough introspection, but maybe that's a thing some people require assistance in achieving.
I feel the same way but about philosophy/ethics classes. Since those are when I learned to self-examine and develop a societal level of empathy.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Dr. Nutt is perhaps the most perfectly ironic name for a psychiatrist.
Incidentally, my childhood doctor was Dr. Payne
Fallout-NL
Member
Same here. I'm still 'using' or 'relying on' the immensely positive experience I had with MDMA (ecstasy without speed?) a couple of years ago. I've always struggled with varying levels of depression. But the way it all just seemed to lift for a precious few hours was extremely enlightening indeed.
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
Tripping is not the same as like drinking a beer though, it's exhaustive in a good way. I never needed a guide but I can see why people would.
ThereAreDozensOfUs.gif
In seriousness, this is incredibly interesting. However I do think it needs to be administered incredibly carefully. A bad trip can prove massively harmful to one's mental wellbeing and in the case of severe depression could lead to an increased suicide rate. It's anecdotal and less based in scientific fact; But everything I've heard about a bad trip is... well, bad.
If they can keep these trials clinical and leave the treatment in safe environments where you can be monitered--and better yet they can isolate what causes the "good" instead of the "bad" (because while some depression is always mentally-based, it's the equivalent of saying "just get over it!" if you say that examining your depression from a detached state will always do good) I can see it becoming an incredibly viable method of treatment.
The trick, imo, is in isolating the causes of depression in the first place. Treatment is great for it in the meantime, but using psychadelics strikes me as dangerous unless it's an incredibly careful process.
In seriousness, this is incredibly interesting. However I do think it needs to be administered incredibly carefully. A bad trip can prove massively harmful to one's mental wellbeing and in the case of severe depression could lead to an increased suicide rate. It's anecdotal and less based in scientific fact; But everything I've heard about a bad trip is... well, bad.
If they can keep these trials clinical and leave the treatment in safe environments where you can be monitered--and better yet they can isolate what causes the "good" instead of the "bad" (because while some depression is always mentally-based, it's the equivalent of saying "just get over it!" if you say that examining your depression from a detached state will always do good) I can see it becoming an incredibly viable method of treatment.
The trick, imo, is in isolating the causes of depression in the first place. Treatment is great for it in the meantime, but using psychadelics strikes me as dangerous unless it's an incredibly careful process.
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
What's your opinion about psychedelics Doctor?
That's not my field of expertise but I did listen to him with an open mind.
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
The transformative properties of a mushroom experience can be extremely profound. Personally they increased my level of introspection to an exponential degree. It's something that may not work well for everyone, but with more research I believe the benefits could be wittled down to much more of a science. It pisses me off that more work hasn't been done in this field because of legal and ethical reasons.
Terence Mckenna, let thy word be heard.
Terence Mckenna, let thy word be heard.
Mango Positive
Member
It grows on cow patties. Research the proper appearances, get yourself to a rural livestock field, and get them yourself. Be careful not to pick the wrong ones and poison yourself. Also, wash them vigorously.
This is an incredible sentence and I love it.
Technically magic mushrooms are food poisoning if I remember correctly, but yes if you eat the incorrect style of mushroom growing in the wild you are deader than dead.
QuantumZebra
Member
An old "inside joke" of sorts between my friends is how the entire world could be fixed if every person was taught an ethics/sociology course and given an 8th of mushrooms.
Urban myth. There is a chemical in shrooms that spurs the hours long journey you go on
To explain:
It is essentially the feeling of a prolonged rollercoaster ride - through your entire perception of reality, who you are, and your place in the universe.
Mango Positive
Member
The lab that created and sold LSD in the 40's and 50's made a FORTUNE from the psychiatric applications of LSD. Cary Grant was a big advocate, having been prescribed LSD by his therapist.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Sandoz labs. Most of the LSD if the time was provided by them. It wasn't until they basically caved in to political and legal pressure to stop selling the drug,that "bad" acid from poor quality home labs became a thing.
Where's that wonderful film of that 50s housewife describing her trip?
There we go
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si-jQeWSDKc
There we go
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si-jQeWSDKc
toadsworth
Banned
Haven't there been studies of microdoses that successfully helped people with depression? I feel like that would be the best way for a clinical treatment. Keep the dosage so low that the psychedelic effects are not even present.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
This stuff has been known about for a long time. The ones laughing at him are the ignorant ones.
So did anyone read the study, I wouldn't read too much in to anything since the study only had 12 participants and no control group. Not really enough data to say anything about anything really. Reminds me a lot of the John Oliver Scientific Study Video.
This is super fascinating! However, the guy seems to be asking controlled questions and has an idea of what he's doing (and what to expect from her behavior to a degree). Which is exactly the sort of environment I think this sort of thing would be the most successful in.
Very much hoping for more studies done into this as someone that deals with moderate mental illness.
As I stand right now? I'm genuinely afraid that it would give me several panic attacks and result in me feeling like I'm dying. Sensory overload when I'm not in a place I'm totally comfortable sounds like a super bad time.
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
How does everyone feel about anecdotal thoughts? Taking psychadelics has always been a mind opening experience for me, taking my conciousness to outer space but for the avg person is it a daunting experience?
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
It's a preliminary study.
but there is data from other studies about drugs used for depression.
Like the ketamine results from the NIH that I posted.
They mentioned this in the article
In order to get further funding you need to establish that it deserves some merit.
EnlightenedMint
Member
Hopefully this will help get more funding and research into the use of psychedelics for mental health, MDMA has been getting a lot of attention for its effectiveness for PTSD as well.
the people doing the study pointed out that this is just a preliminary test designed to show that people with depression can take the drug safely and that it has an effect worth studying
L.B. Jeffries
Member
Anecdotal personal story: shrooms changed my life.
I don't mean this in a reverential or even mystical sense, I mean like it was a hard neurochemical reset on the whole brain pan. Like someone took out the Nintendo cartridge in my brain, blew the dust off, and turned the whole thing back on.
I never sought out help prior to this incident. I was never diagnosed or prescribed anything for depression. It was just a kind of morose, cyclical depression that mixed with a couple of other personality issues into one of those unhealthy patterns. Fixating on things, be it games or other activities, overeating, gaining weight, being sad about being fat. Dysfunctional relationships. Just the usual middle class white guy crap.
So one day I go to a Dead show. Not the Grateful Dead, because there's no Jerry, but just the Dead. It's mainly Bob Weir and some other guys. Maybe Phil Lesh was there, I don’t remember. Anyways I eat about a quarter of quaint, Mom & Pop shrooms that give me a nice little blue buzz and has me giggling. This is a low level experience. The kind of thing you do when you're going to trip and be in public because you don't want to be out of your brains but you want things to flow for the music.
So right as Terrapin Station is firing up this goddamn wookie, I mean like hasn't seen a shower in a few days, probably offended by the concept of deoderant, turns around and says, "Hey man, you want some shrooms?"
I am precisely at the point where I should not be in charge of anything or making any decisions. I know this because I said yes and when he extended his hand and showed me a mountain of strange, creepy brown mushrooms I grabbed the entire bunch and shoved them in my mouth. Chewbacca stares at me for a few seconds then says, "Wow man, that was a lot of mushrooms." Then he immediately moves away from me. Like how you move away from somebody who you think might be insane or is dangerous.
Thirty minutes later, my hands start shaking. My stomach is doing backflips. And the slow, sad realization hits that I have just eaten a mountain of shrooms, I'm at a Dead show, and there is no way out of this disaster. I sat down, stuck my head between my legs, and just rocked. I had several friends with me and they asked if I was okay and did I want to go to the hospital. I was lucid enough to point out that there wasn't much fucking point to going to a hospital, since they would tell me exactly what I already knew. I'd eaten too many shrooms, to sit down, and just ride it out.
There were a lot of emotions. Like big, sweeping waves of feeling that were both joy and sadness. Then grimmer, more terrifying feelings. Like a rollercoaster of your brain twisting and contorting into different emotional states but with no context, driving force, or meaning. Then the hallucinations started. Not like, oh there are pink dragons giggling fun. What's going on when you trip is that the divisions between your conscious and unconscious mind, between happy and sad, between friend and foe, are starting to break down.
A lot of it I don't remember well. A lot of are personal details I'm not repeating because they're private. But what I remember most distinctly was when my brain started to impose its own trial on itself. As in, all these different people that looked like me all sat around debating what to do with me. And what they thought was the best course of action. And all these different versions of me, including several girl versions, pointed out all these things I'd forgotten. We talked a very long time.
I think I snapped out of this mental state after about three hours when Bob Weir was doing a solo for 'Lovelight' and I stood up. I was pretty shakey and fried for a few more hours and ate a triple decker at Wendy's followed by sleeping for a very long time. And then I decided it was time to change my life.
I didn't magically become a better person afterwards. But the point at which I broke free from the sad cycle of my personal issues and began the upward climb into what I like to think is a positive, independent entity began that day.
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