Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Fun fact: format diversity doesn't automatically mean fun.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Magic: the Gathering |OT9| Kaladesh - Cruisin' Down the Street in my 6/4
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
- Start date
- Status
Fun fact: format diversity doesn't automatically mean fun.
Jesus. That's telling.
FreedomFrisbee
Member
Karn and Jhoira was very clearly a knight and princess archetype. The male protecting the female. He is physically structured unambiguously as a male. Xantcha was genderless and was presented as female. Magic has a long history of presenting things that don't have junk but still treating them like they do. Retconning that for marketing points is just dumb.
Recall that one of Karn's earliest stories had to do with him trying to retain his identity with limited memory capacity. He very much did not give a shit about anything but defining who he was.
This is coming from the perspective of someone who owns those books. I'm perfectly aware that we're in a burgeoning new era of canon and can accept it for what it is, but lets not forget the way things actually were in the story.
charlequin
Banned
Yeah, he should add it to his FAQ.
I've asked about it many times on Blogatog and never gotten an answer, which I interpret as he's already decided on the same angle so doesn't want to talk about it.
I think there's an interesting lesson here compared to previous poor Standard environments. When people got sick of standard under Affinity, or Caw-Blade, or whatever, I think the general assumption was that people were sick of not being able to play their preferred style of deck, or of always losing to "the same" deck. The last few Standards (and I think this calls back to a few less prominent Standard problems of the past, like Jitte) suggests that the problem is really just that people don't like losing to the same small list of good cards all the time, even if they're being used in decks that play very differently.
In fairness, that's basically his point in that section of the article.
You are not going to understand any of the decisions WotC makes in this field if you assume they're driven by marketing seeking bullet points instead of by creative types pushing the envelope in support of their own values.
Yes charles you hit it right on the head
There's a perceived "hitlist" of cards that people get disgusted at seeing in every standard format nowadays. It's the big cards that people just go
UGH SMUG COP
UGH GIDS
UGH KALITAS
UGH ISHKANAH
UGH EMRAKUL
They're so high profile people know them by name and sight. When they're announced they usually get a visceral reaction.
There's a perceived "hitlist" of cards that people get disgusted at seeing in every standard format nowadays. It's the big cards that people just go
UGH SMUG COP
UGH GIDS
UGH KALITAS
UGH ISHKANAH
UGH EMRAKUL
They're so high profile people know them by name and sight. When they're announced they usually get a visceral reaction.
Wasn't me! I just passed them on.
Smug Copter should be hit now. It's the biggest issue imo.
FreedomFrisbee
Member
You don't think that the current make-up and character types of the Gatewatch are driven by marketing?
Are people really upset about Ishkanah and Kalitas though? Popular does not equate to reviled.
Dragonlord Atarka was popular. Jace, Architect of Thought was widely played. Neither were reviled.
Collected Company, Rally the Ancestors, Thoughtseize, those are the kinds of cards -- yes, Smuggler's Copter too -- that ruin and warp formats.
Yes, I know the reasons. There's a lack of hate, or the format just shook out that way. Doesn't change the fact that they were in the right place at the right time for awful feelings.
Please stop mixing them up.
Dragonlord Atarka was popular. Jace, Architect of Thought was widely played. Neither were reviled.
Collected Company, Rally the Ancestors, Thoughtseize, those are the kinds of cards -- yes, Smuggler's Copter too -- that ruin and warp formats.
Yes, I know the reasons. There's a lack of hate, or the format just shook out that way. Doesn't change the fact that they were in the right place at the right time for awful feelings.
Please stop mixing them up.
charlequin
Banned
I certainly don't think it's driven by an attempt to score cred for being "politically correct" given that the Gatewatch is consistently more criticized on that score than the supporting cast.
Yeah but I feel like just anecdotally I hear people complain way, way less about either of these than Copter or Emrakul.
SigmasonicX
Member
In the past, they've talked a lot about including cards that can be good in a variety of decks. I wonder if that may actually be a bad thing, and if cards that are only good in a small amount of decks would actually be preferable.
The fact that they went with the pastiest planeswalkers is definitely marketing driven. In no world is introducing a bunch of nonwhite nonmale major characters, including characters that don't conform that traditional genders, and the inclusion of characters with atypical mental states a safer marketing decision than remaining pasty. The decision not to make Kaladesh full-Indian was marketing based, but the decision to go there in the first place was driven by creative desires. Regardless of the quality, the creative crew of Magic is clearly interested in being more inclusive.
The fact that they went with the pastiest planeswalkers is definitely marketing driven. In no world is introducing a bunch of nonwhite nonmale major characters, including characters that don't conform that traditional genders, and the inclusion of characters with atypical mental states a safer marketing decision than remaining pasty. The decision not to make Kaladesh full-Indian was marketing based, but the decision to go there in the first place was driven by creative desires. Regardless of the quality, the creative crew of Magic is clearly interested in being more inclusive.
Sure, but every format has bombs. Again, Atarka was a bomb. Saw lots of play.
They're not as ever-present, format warping, or as hard to deal with as Smuggler's Copter though. You know this.
Yes, but they're still emblematic of a design philosophy about pushing the F out of a few cards each set. They're not as bad, but it's the same core issue,
Also "you have vast amounts of unknown unknowns w/ regards to accidentally pissing people off".
I'm not defending the emphasis on bombs, and do think they need to fix it with answers. That's not in question.
I just don't think people spend nearly as much complaint equity on them as they do Smuggler's Copter or did on Rally or CoCo or Delver or any of the former format boogymen hate cards.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Kalitas isn't that bad.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
The midgame is fine imo, it's either the turn 2 copter or turn 6 to 8 emrakul that's seriously tilting.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The bigger problem is that there's no reason to believe that Aether Revolt is gonna fix fucking anything.
Now that I know Heart of Kiran is there, I'm more than fine with Smug Cop getting hit.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I realized that Pulse of Murasa is actually graveyard hate, the worst kind but you could feasibly use it to turn off delirium in a clutch moment.
Gonna put it in my side for tomorrow for matchups where the life is also relevant. Thinking about putting a blooming marsh in there too for all the black card I'm putting there.
My current list of Chaotic Summonings:
Gonna put it in my side for tomorrow for matchups where the life is also relevant. Thinking about putting a blooming marsh in there too for all the black card I'm putting there.
My current list of Chaotic Summonings:
I wanted to put Essence Extraction into the side to make up for the loss of Nissa's Renewal but it makes the mana a bit too awkward.
Infinite Stars
Member
R&D deliberately fudging the details to avoid admitting they fucked up hard. This is like MaRo saying last fall "BFZ is selling well so people like it"
Maros insistence on mass market cultural awareness as a prerequisite for utilizing existing culture/mythology has me wondering if well ever get sets that take advantage of eastern settings beyond aesthetics again. A real shame.
There isn't a single other creative group/individual I follow that so thoroughly embraces restraining possibility with focus group driven design as wotc does with magic.
There isn't a single other creative group/individual I follow that so thoroughly embraces restraining possibility with focus group driven design as wotc does with magic.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I wonder just how many white people will be on amonkhet.
Infinite Stars
Member
Dear god put a warning label on that crap. I had forgotten that even existed until I saw it.
I do hope that there's significant representation in Amonkhet though, hopefully they don't go with the Exodus problem.
charlequin
Banned
I'm mostly just curious what kind of thing you're imagining here that won't be done under this current paradigm.
SigmasonicX
Member
While Amonkhet will probably have more white people than I'd like, I really really doubt they'll Gods of Egypt it. The art pieces we've seen already demonstrate a mix of skin colors.
Wulfric
Member
I figure Erobo's underworld was full of spooky spirit people. And really I just want her to team up with Dack.
based Seth telling the real truth here.
Get 'em kirb!
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They're in denial about what they can do to fix anything so they just won't and hope new sets will magically solve it for them.
charlequin
Banned
Not really sure why this is your read. He even acknowledges the threats vs. answers imbalance in the article.
SigmasonicX
Member
People are really exaggerating Kaladesh-Standard's problems as long term issues. They are well aware that their development methods in recent years have caused problems, and even if Kaladesh isn't as "ethnic" as it could be, it's still more than most mainstream games, and I'm confident Return to Kaladesh will have more Indian stuff. They haven't shown interest in doing Kamigawa again because even now, after their bits of prodding with Tamiyo and Commander, there really isn't that much interest among customers, and I suspect that we'll see a Return to Kamigawa anyway.
WotC is freaked out about Standard attendance. With good reason, because it's cratered. A bell curve going from 1-5 with a tail from 6-10 is a sign that there's a very good explanation for why it's cratered- people hate the format.
I don't think Amonkhet will fair as poorly as Kaladesh on the representation front. Egyptian mythology is much more well known.
I'll see if I can find some more quotes later as I'm just wrapping at lunch. I'm mostly thinking of comments he's made like this:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/77605247954/could-we-ever-see-a-native-american-culture
The PAX response to a more India centric design: https://twitter.com/elektrotal/status/609226612039548928 (Need to find the actual video to make sure the reasoning was this again; I remember the guy and I remember it being something along those lines, but this is second hand)
It's also a general trend in Maro's discussion on Kamigawa, but I can only find offhand references real quickly, not his full breakdown of the argument. (Which I think I might have heard on a podcast; I'll need to find it again later)
As for what I imagine it means, I simply don't expect we'll ever get top down design done for cultures, or at least aspects of cultures, that aren't featured prominently in Western media. I liked that Kamigawa exposed me to a new mythology and encouraged me to ask why does this particular creature behave like this, and I'd like for future sets to do it again, but it seems like he's explicitly not going to pursue that.
I'll see if I can find some more quotes later as I'm just wrapping at lunch. I'm mostly thinking of comments he's made like this:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/77605247954/could-we-ever-see-a-native-american-culture
The PAX response to a more India centric design: https://twitter.com/elektrotal/status/609226612039548928 (Need to find the actual video to make sure the reasoning was this again; I remember the guy and I remember it being something along those lines, but this is second hand)
It's also a general trend in Maro's discussion on Kamigawa, but I can only find offhand references real quickly, not his full breakdown of the argument. (Which I think I might have heard on a podcast; I'll need to find it again later)
As for what I imagine it means, I simply don't expect we'll ever get top down design done for cultures, or at least aspects of cultures, that aren't featured prominently in Western media. I liked that Kamigawa exposed me to a new mythology and encouraged me to ask why does this particular creature behave like this, and I'd like for future sets to do it again, but it seems like he's explicitly not going to pursue that.
Infinite Stars
Member
Yup, all of these frantic changes made by Wizards in the past 4-6 months reek of panic. They've gone from "Hey isn't modern a fun format to play that's not standard" to "Please Play standard, we'll bribe you with Mythics, we'll change the rotation, we'll write 4+ articles saying that the format is fine, we'll even have LRR(our go to guys for promotion) make a video promoting Standard. Just please love Standard!"
A Bell curve that has the most common answer be somewhere around 2-4 is not anything close to what anyone wants.
And the change to rotation stuck people with Gideon for an extra 6 months!
GoutPatrol
Forgotten in his cell
*sniff*
Poor Rashmi
Awesome, I should be able to get enough points then. What was the competition like? I checked this year's entrants for the U.S. WMCQ and Sam Black as well as Jon Finkel were competing. That sounds like a quick path towards 0-0-7 to me.
Checking back to this late, but eh, there are still alot of regular people who go to these. I just remembered I've actually played in 3, but left after round 2 in the first one to go meet someone. My total record is 7-8. People are going to play good decks but they will still bring their pets, and you will see those if you're not at the top tables. In my first Modern WMCQ I was playing Bogles, and played against Temur Twin, Living End Twin, Elves twice, Goblins, and Shamans. The second one I was playing Burn and went up against Bant Eldrazi twice, U-Turns, Suicide Zoo twice, Burn and GW Hatebears. Especially with Modern, people may not play the best deck but the deck they are most comfortable with.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I'm not talking about that article. I'm talking about the fact that people were suggesting they should ban Smuggler's Copter/Marvel/Ishkanah/etc. But they aren't going to ban anything, because of course they aren't going to ban anything.
And while we're on the subject of that article, I simply don't believe Stoddard when he claims there are better answers incoming. Naturalize is technically a better answer to Copter and Marvel than anything in the format, but it wouldn't fix anything about the format.
But man it would be great if they did. Heart is a suitable replacement for Copter and I dunno what else you axe if anything. They really just need to print some hate. Curbing some graveyard stuff and maybe some better removal would be helpful
It's the Undertaker/HS issue- if a threat that good is 1cc/2cc, it's going to come down and do work in most situations before your opponent can respond.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Let's not forget you can curve copter, into spell queller, into Gideon.
Which is just a giant ass FU in your face.
Which is just a giant ass FU in your face.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Printing a narrow answer to Copter or even vehicles specifically doesn't do enough; you already can play a 1 mana instant speed answer to Copter if you REALLY hate Copters. There's no such thing as a card that is unanswerable if you're willing to play a card that doesn't do anything but answer it. The problem is that it probably doesn't matter what they added to combat Copter in Aether Revolt because Vehicles are a bad design for constructed and Copter is overpowered in context.
Having Vehicles around that are constructed playable and pushed like Smuggler's Copter means you need to have ways to answer it in all sorts of colors, e.g. Lightning Strike in red, Hero's Downfall in black, Reclamation Sage in Green, Steel Sabotage in blue, etc.
Having Vehicles around that are constructed playable and pushed like Smuggler's Copter means you need to have ways to answer it in all sorts of colors, e.g. Lightning Strike in red, Hero's Downfall in black, Reclamation Sage in Green, Steel Sabotage in blue, etc.
Infinite Stars
Member
It's not even like Gideon is the stupidest pushed card they've made in White. Avacyn straight up wins on that front because she's just stupidly busted.
Imagine a world where Gideon wasn't just an Elspeth knockoff(or had his ultimate changed to -5 so he wasn't an auto 4 of in any white deck), Avacyn didn't wrath the board when she flips, Emrakul wasn't able to be cheated out on Turn 4/ cast on Turn 8, Spell Queller was Exile Spell CMC 3 or less, Copter had a crew cost of 2 instead of one.
Just like, there's a bunch of little stuff that changed cards from good to pushed.
charlequin
Banned
I guess the place I'm going with this is that there are problems with actually doing "top down" design on other real-world cultures beyond the purely mercenary motive. Take the Native American example -- you can't do a top down design for that culture, point-blank, because all the most "resonant" tropes are also the most racist. If anything but a complete top-down approach only counts as "aesthetic" then yeah, there's just no way to reference that culture.
Or take Kamigawa. The biggest issue with the top-down design here is that far and away the most prominent element -- the spirit war -- draws on an aspect of tradition and mythology that's extremely unfamiliar to Americans, and in a way that was actively difficult to parse for people reading and looking at cards. Other stuff was unfamiliar, but Tamiyo demonstrates how something like Moonfolk can succeed even if initially familiar -- it just needs an easy name and visual attached, and a clear theme that people can understand just from the cards. If you try to do a setting like this from the absolute top-down, you have to fill every setting element in from that top-down process, and you're gonna wind up with more spirits than moonfolk in the process.
I don't think anything about their market research keeps them from doing what they've done on some sets in the past, though: attaching a cultural aesthetic to a bottom-up design, then doing a second top-down pass to give that cultural element more heft. After the feedback from Kaladesh I expect them to give that approach a more serious thought in the future.
What kind of bans do you think would actually have a positive effect? I don't think a big 5+ card shotgun approach would actually have a good effect given the current nature of the format.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
All I want is lightning strike. Bam forget turn 3 Lili forget turn 2 copter forget turn 2 Grim Flaherty forget Nahiri ultimate in 3 turns,...
Heck I'd take wild slash, just give me burn that's at least comeeting with copter and some other stuff.
Heck I'd take wild slash, just give me burn that's at least comeeting with copter and some other stuff.
- Status