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Man Edits Wind Waker so 3-Year Old Daughter Doesn't Feel 2nd Class
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Sure. That works quite well if you put those words into his mouth.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I'm sorry, why do you people keep calling him 'Link'? I always called him BUTTS when asked in the games, and by acting like he's suddenly called Link you're completely ruining the narrative of the series for me.
PataHikari
Banned
You don't "get" subtext do you.
Pyrrhus
Member
If it doesn't mean anything, why do you need to make the character a girl to let girls "not feel second class?" You're trying to have it both ways.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Civility ? Hyperbole ? Ad Hominem ?
Oh wow. Missed the edit.
I like how the idea of a parent wanting to make their child feel accepted, included, and happy about their own gender is political as long as that child is a girl.
"Gender roles" aren't comforting to children. I'm not really sure where you're drawing that from. I played with action figures, video games, and stuffed animals as a little girl. My favorite color was red, not pink. I was comfortable enjoying what I liked, and especially so because my parents encouraged me to enjoy the things that made me happy, not the ones that I was "meant" to enjoy or participate in. Parental acceptance is comforting.
Obviously her father is very eager to make her feel accepted, which you seem to think is the act of an extremist or militant. I assumed it was just a loving father, but what do I know. I'm just a wacky feminist.
And maybe they will when she's older. I mean... she's three.
No offense to you specifically (this is all over the thread), but I'm starting to feel like GAF doesn't know a lot of children in this age range. People seem to think she's either likely to be a zombie who doesn't process anything around her or that she is at a place where she could design her own video game or participate in a discussion of gender roles within society. For now, can't they just play a game together?
I like how the idea of a parent wanting to make their child feel accepted, included, and happy about their own gender is political as long as that child is a girl.
"Gender roles" aren't comforting to children. I'm not really sure where you're drawing that from. I played with action figures, video games, and stuffed animals as a little girl. My favorite color was red, not pink. I was comfortable enjoying what I liked, and especially so because my parents encouraged me to enjoy the things that made me happy, not the ones that I was "meant" to enjoy or participate in. Parental acceptance is comforting.
Obviously her father is very eager to make her feel accepted, which you seem to think is the act of an extremist or militant. I assumed it was just a loving father, but what do I know. I'm just a wacky feminist.
And maybe they will when she's older. I mean... she's three.
No offense to you specifically (this is all over the thread), but I'm starting to feel like GAF doesn't know a lot of children in this age range. People seem to think she's either likely to be a zombie who doesn't process anything around her or that she is at a place where she could design her own video game or participate in a discussion of gender roles within society. For now, can't they just play a game together?
chertipros
Member
Hahaha good one
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Do you?
Just going off what I recall of being 3, I watched Bugs Bunny because I was fascinated by any form of animation. I wasn't looking for a strong male role model nor did I note his cross dressing. The content flat out didn't matter. It was animation so it was awesome.
So as I see it, guy did a nice thing for his daughter but I doubt it registers at all to her. He's merely projecting second class citizen stuff on to her.
Irrelevant, but at age 3 I also drove my grandmother nearly insane one day by asking her to draw "a crack" on a chalkboard. She had no idea what I wanted and I grew increasingly upset as she failed to produce "a crack" to my satisfaction. (Undoubtedly this warped me terribly, explaining my awful posts in this thread.)
It's not difficult to see Rubius's outstanding bigotry. I dunno why you guys even bother.
PataHikari
Banned
Why should I be civil to somebody being a sexist prick?
And again, it's not hyperbole. I have not once exaggerated.
Also, guess what, when somebody is being a sexist prick, it's not ad hominem to call them a sexist prick.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Then why aren't we supporting the father who did it FOR Nintendo, for the benefit of his daughter?
Wouldn't overwhelming positive response to this story possibly send a potential message to the makers of the game that could lead to such a change as the kind you said you'd support being implemented?
Hydranockz
Member
Link in WW is the story about a boy specifically. Master Chief in Halo is a man. Samus in Metroid is a woman. I want to stress that the story of WW is about boys on Outset Island. Every other Zelda game doesn't make any real reference to the hero having to be male.
Why should any of those things have to be changed? Why can't you say; "Ok, those are there and now here is my story of something that hasn't been told about and which many of this demographic can identify with"? Can't the two exist side by side?
Why should any of those things have to be changed? Why can't you say; "Ok, those are there and now here is my story of something that hasn't been told about and which many of this demographic can identify with"? Can't the two exist side by side?
Nobody said that it doesn't mean anything. It very clearly means something to the father, or he wouldn't have done it. If it increases their enjoyment of playing the game together, it means something to them as a family. One day when she's older and is reminded of this, it will probably mean a lot to know her dad loved her enough to want to engage with her using one of his hobbies in a very personalized way. It's sweet. Sweet gestures from parents mean something.
Why it means something negative to strangers on the internet who will never be forced to experience the game that way, I wouldn't be able to tell you.
And as far as the idea of increasing female characters overall, I'm not sure how that is having it both ways. Unless you mean equal experiences. That I'd be very cool with having both ways. I mean, if the player can choose between a male or female version of a character who is primarily intended as an avatar/cipher for the player, in what way does that take the male version away from boys?
Unless we're assuming female Link would have cooties.
Oh my god, does she have cooties?
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Moral High Ground? Not being in the same argumentative level?
KirbYuuYuu
Member
Because they currently don't exist side by side.
MisterHero
Super Member
There are constraints with presenting a story in a videogame. Much like Link's left-handedness being flipped for Twilight Princess Wii, introducing a new POV could require large alterations or creating extra, alternative versions of cutscenes. Regarding Link's handedness, Nintendo was lucky they just had to flip everything. If it were an budget-friendly decision, it's more likely.
Xenoblade is pretty good about this. It sticks to the story but acknowledges your choice of a character. Teammates talk and react to your character during battle and NPC chatting rather than the player using the character. There is a bit of extra characterization found through this dialogue.
I don't know if it was caught earlier, but I mentioned the Satellaview system (including BS Zelda?) included gender choice. At the time, it was a simple choice of sprites.
Explain to me how I'm a sexist prick for having my opinion about wanting Zelda to be a more developed character than a damsel in distress and get games where she is the hero?
Seriously, I really want to see what you will put in my mouth on this one.
Hydranockz
Member
Exactly. Is the solution to take one story and adapt it for as many people as possible or is it to make more stories?
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
You're directly attacking the messenger rather than the message. That's kinda the definition.
There is nothing in Wind Waker's story that would require Link to be a boy. The line about boys dressing in green when they come of age could easily be changed to children without any significant change to the overall narrative. Hell Skyward Swords had female knights, so the idea isn't far fetched.
Pyrrhus
Member
Please stop with this sophistry. This is exactly the sort of thing I was referring to earlier. I never said anything to denigrate feminism. I believe in equal rights, equal pay, and reproductive rights for women. It doesn't mean I have crawl up Andrea Dworkin's ass in order be a feminist.
AtomskEater
Member
I'm kinda confused as to whether you're suggesting this guy should have made an entire game for his kid or just posing a larger question about the diversity of game protagonists/characters? I think in a perfect world you might get a combination of both.
To explain, I think games where you can create a character and personalize them (one story with many adaptations) and stories told from very specific and varied POVs would be the best way to do it.
Except that if we think like that, Katniss does not need to be a girl in The Hunger Games. Samus does not need to be a Women. Gruntilda does not need to be a Women. Venom does not need to be a transgender. But they are for a narrative. You do not change a sex of a character like that. Only the Author can do that.
faceless007
Member
He's not adapting it for as many people as possible, he's adapting it for his daughter.
Why is this so threatening?
KirbYuuYuu
Member
And yet we live in a world where we mod games regardless of the author/creators intent, along with alter it for some reason of our liking. The most important thing to realize is that it does NOT impact what already exists because any changes made that wasn't the authors is non-canon.
Seriously, have you never heard of fanfiction or game mods?
The point of the thread is not really about what the father did. He did what he did, and there is no way to stop it. Hell I even think its sweet what he did.
The point is rather, do we need more female protagonist and is a solution to cut the male protagonists to favor female protagonist. Like, to make Link a Female for the next game.
While we need more female protagonist, cutting the male protagonist is not a solution. We either push for new IP, or we push for more of the female protagonist IP like Eternal Darkness, Tomb Raider, Princess Peach, Bayonetta, Okami and ect.
Hydranockz
Member
I understand this, but what happens if the next Metroid let's you be either a man or a woman? My point specifically is that then the story isn't about a defined person anymore, it's about the player. Instead of the player being the instrument, the player is the conductor so to speak. This isn't bad in any way but surely an artist should be allowed to tell the story as they want to.
The devs want you to play as a woman in Portal or Beyond Good & Evil. Similarly the tale of Master Chief is that of a man, just as the devs wanted it. The argument can totally exist whereby there are no stories being told for little girls to identify with, which is entirely true and the crux of this whole thread in my mind.
As a terrible analogy, I don't think enough metal gets played on Irish radio stations. My solution isn't to get the artists who are curretly on radio to change their style to accomodate my tastes. My solution would be to find a new radio station or ask them to play heavier stuff. Not a perfect analogy but none of mine ever are. I just think there should be that genre of music available for me to enjoy on the radio. I think girls just want to have any genre of games they can identify with because currently none exist. At least with metal there are ways outside of radio to listen to music. What must it be like when you're a girl that wants to identify with games that simply don't exist?
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Has link ever outright said he was a dude?
Im pretty sure everyone just forced this gender on, yeah sure sometimes link can look masculine but seriously, im sure given the chance Links gender would be revealed.
Im pretty sure everyone just forced this gender on, yeah sure sometimes link can look masculine but seriously, im sure given the chance Links gender would be revealed.
AtomskEater
Member
I'm not entirely sure why "cutting/altering male protagonists is not the way" even became a topic of conversation. This occurrence is just one person altering text in a game that only one other person will likely ever see, because there is a lack of games that fit a specific criteria. This is not Miyamoto announcing that Link will be a girl for the next game, and it changes nothing in the canon lore of the series. The father likely doesn't have the time/money/resources/knowhow to create games from scratch. I agree that it would be wonderful if game developers made a wide variety of tales from different perspectives and cultures, but that isn't what happens most of the time, and that's what prompted this guy to change pronouns in the first place.
It just seems like a question better posited in its own thread.
Except the plot of those stories hinge on their characters being women. The love triangle in Hunger Games would have to be redone if Katniss was male. Metroids entire plot is dependent on the twist of Samus actually being a woman.
Link on the other hand is a cipher. He has no real personality traits beyond being heroic. He doesn't even have a name. This is so players can more easily put themselves into the role of the hero. Nothing would really change if he were a girl. The story would merely go from an older brother trying to rescue his sister to an older sister trying to do the same thing.
Typo? If so, best typo.
All the Manuals says he's a male. And many games tell him that he's a man. "Little fairy boy" for example.
Aquamarine
Member
What happens if you change them? Will the Author Police come and lock you up?
People change and adapt stories all the time. There's nothing wrong with that. Sure, if you change a story, it becomes something different, but it's still a perfectly valid piece of fiction in its own right.
These are stories, not science. We can change them to whatever we want.
I don't think new IPs are necessary at all, though it does depend on the nature of the IP admittedly as some like FF are far more malleable. Still, you don't even need to turn Link into a girl, you can just make an entry that stars Zelda (which half the people without series knowledge sort of expect anyway just on the name), or perhaps just kill the "save the princess" dynamic entirely for one where you play as the two adventuring together, which has the boon of making gameplay more dynamic. You don't even really need to change the basic premise of the series story, maybe a revival of Ganon manages to steal away the Triforces without getting (or at least keeping) either of them, and they need to reclaim them ASAP.
Well, this seems to be a change in position from your earlier statements, where the father was somehow pushing for female dominance over guys.
Hydranockz
Member
I never said it was threatening. I said earlier that, simply put, he shouldn't have had to do it at all. There should be more games out there that are suitable. The fact that he has done it is proof that the lack of such games is a problem.
I just don't think his clearly unique solution is going to solve the issue. He damn well drew attention to it and that's perfect. I just don't see his method as an overall solution to the industry. I think what he did should be commended becuase of how it will affect his girl should she really enjoy the game a lot more.
There are two things I think that are factors here.
If there are 10 apples in a basket and 8 of them are totally red and 2 of them are totally green. If I wanted an equal number of both I could either;
a) Replace 3 red apples with green ones.
- or -
b) Add 6 green apples to the basket.
That's just my way of illustrating this. It's not perfect.
These first posters are really nailing it lately.
I'm sorry, was I the one who entered a thread by throwing around "you militants," and telling people that their viewpoints were not welcome so they should leave? Somehow I don't think that was me. (You might not know that, though, since you've chosen not to engage with my actual responses to your arguments as you would apparently rather argue semantics.) I suppose you have a point in that your antagonism toward others in the thread has been very direct.
And you're right, you didn't say the word feminism.
You said that inclusiveness for women is making something "retrofitted to your politics" and that such a parent is shoving "all this socio-political shit into the picture." But yeah, you didn't say feminism. Just militants with socio-political shit. Would you care to clarify what that means if not inclusiveness for women as the father himself suggests is his intention? It's somewhat unclear.
faceless007
Member
Exactly. How is this any different from every piece of fan fiction or fan art for anything ever? There are countless Zelda stories, Zelda artworks in a different style, Zelda mods, and fan-made creations that all do something different with the world than the creators intended. They change characters, change relationships, change the entire world of the game, and no one accuses them of destroying the original artist's vision. How is this any different?
Except for the love story with Zelda, in particular Skyward Sword.
Also, Katniss could easily be a boy with a Love Triangle of two girls. Switch Katniss and Peeta and change Gale to be a more Tomboyish girl and bam.
Metroid Plot twist is a 4th wall twist. The whole narrative is about a human being trained by an alien species. The plot could be change to be a guy anytime.
Any story can be changed to make a male a female or a female a male.
In addition to what people said, he definitely looks like a guy in the original's artwork, and more definitively in the sequel's artwork. Possibly moreso than newer incarnations, even with that weird no pants thing in the original.
AtomskEater
Member
Okay, I think I get what you're saying now, and it seems like a reasonable viewpoint.
I got teased enough for thinking the male hero's name is Zelda as a kid, I can't imagine how thinking that Link is a girl would go down. Setting your kid up for future pain, sir.
Twilight Princess' Link has taken off his shirt. And games have made numerous references to his being male. God, is this the new Sheik?
Twilight Princess' Link has taken off his shirt. And games have made numerous references to his being male. God, is this the new Sheik?
I don't know. Looks pretty manly to me.
I like how female toon Link looks the same as male Link other than a change in posture.
Except that for people who are invested in those stories, this is a blow. A story is set. Its written and published. After that everything is locked down and cannot be altered. I dont mind fanfictions, mods or what ever. I really dont care as they dont exist in the reality of the world. But the rules are the rules. Link a Male. Zelda is Female. Tingle is Creepy and Chickens are Deadly. There is not 4 triforce.
I'm a fact kind of guy, I dont botter with fanfiction and try to stay in the cannon.
ok can we all admit
that female dominance is not something that exists
jesus christ
like this whole women pushing to be better than men narrative
IT DOESNT FUCKING WORK THAT WAY
what I was saying a few pages before is that this action is precisely admirable because it seeks to disturb the canon. The canon is messed up! It has problems!
that female dominance is not something that exists
jesus christ
like this whole women pushing to be better than men narrative
IT DOESNT FUCKING WORK THAT WAY
what I was saying a few pages before is that this action is precisely admirable because it seeks to disturb the canon. The canon is messed up! It has problems!
faceless007
Member
Then I'm not really sure what your disagreement is because I don't think anyone has suggested that it is.
The dad added apples to the basket. As evidenced by the fact that everyone still owns their original, male copy of the game, and what the father did won't affect the way a single other person gets to experience Zelda.