Support NeoGAF

[LightofRohan]

All-star? All I see are game journalists.

EDIT: Holy shit:

Yea this is a really odd scenario. It's one of the only times where I feel MOST if not ALL journalists are OK with the ending and most of the fans are not.

This is good though, really shows the disconnect between us and helps evaluate it more.

 

[Lime]

I'm still very, very shocked by this. PRetty much no one on that side seem to even understand why people are upset. The best I think is Jeff Gerstmann. He said on the bombcast something to the effect of not really liking the ending and how Shepard shitting in his hand and throwing it at the camera would have been more honest.

Is there really some grand Bioware/EA conspiracy with the media forcing them to dismiss peoples claims of the ending sucking? Or do they really just not get it and can't even take 5 mins to do some skimming on why people don't like the endings?

I think Y2Kev touched upon this in the recent "lol GameJournalism" thread:

I just see everyone exclaiming MONEYHAT every time you see a bad review or a tortured piece of praise for something obviously unworthy. If ONLY these people were paid shills. They're not.

Some of them are holding out for jobs, some of them are incapable, others are just enthusiasts in it because they like playing games, and others are just uncomfortable with being critical.

We keep missing the forest for the trees. There is foul play, but we've projected a tiny amount of it onto a large swath of the press for no reason. The reality is that they're just bad.

Look what happened with Colin Moriarity at IGN. A Forbes contributor used his own piece to show how he was being logically inconsistent and he immediately stormed to twitter to proclaim his butthurt. These are not people engaged in conveying artistic catharsis. These are children.

They simply are incapable of producing any form of knowledge. How they got to the position they are might be symptomatic/indicative of the sick media system surrounding contemporary digital games.

 

[Melchiah]

So how many scifi series in media ended in a satisfactory way? There must be a reason why I wasn't 'surprised' by the ending....

Babylon 5, with its five seasons lasting storyline. There were some lower points (the 1st season, and the firsth half of the 5th season), but it definitely ended in a satisfactory way, and offered the needed closure unlike ME3.

Mass Effect series owes a great deal to B5 series (Reapers/Shadows, Turian-human/Minbari-human first contact war, Krogans/Narn...), unfortunately the one thing they didn't copy was how it all was ended.

 

[Banana Kid]

There have been plenty of journalists who've come out and said they don't like the ending. They all seem to be against the idea of changing it, though.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Mass Effect's humanist bent and man-machine relationships

Kevin: A lot of people complain about the final ship landing, and how similar the very last moments are to each other. But when I got to the end what I see is EDI and Joker coming out of the Normandy. I really liked that moment, because I believed in this weird romance all through the game.

Arthur: I picked [control of the reapers] because I finally told Liara "I love you." I had finally made that Shepard's relationship.

Adam: It's a deeply humanistic franchise, and what they did with the end really is the ultimate statement of what their underlying philosophy is.

Kevin: Part of the reason I (chose unification) was I was still mourning the loss of Tali. I chose the Geth. There's that moment where she takes off her mask and falls off the cliff. When I got to the end, I almost felt like if I don't choose synthesis, then I've lost Tali for nothing.

barf

 

[Lime]

barf

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I picked [control of the reapers] because I finally told Liara "I love you." I had finally made that Shepard's relationship.

Part of the reason I (chose unification) was I was still mourning the loss of Tali. I chose the Geth. There's that moment where she takes off her mask and falls off the cliff. When I got to the end, I almost felt like if I don't choose synthesis, then I've lost Tali for nothing.

WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN

 

[Massa]

There have been plenty of journalists who've come out and said they don't like the ending. They all seem to be against the idea of changing it, though.

Yes. And there have been a lot of batshit insane people going completely insane over the internet, and a lot of what these journalists are replying to refers to that, I would assume.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

Something like this?

Yeah, I know, my PS skills aren't that great. But I took a stock photo, just like BioWare does! I'm learning!

Perfect!

 

[Kabuki Quantum Lover]

I read the article. I'm not impressed with their answers at all.

EDIT:

It seemed like a pretty consistent thematic thing, that you're haunted by this ghost representative of the people you can't save, and the things you can't change. And at the ending, it's in your face as this thing you can't change. From a literary perspective, i think that that's slick.

If I shook my head a little more violently, it'd fall right off.

 

[chickdigger802]

Woa, I had no idea Mordin could live. Damn this game is amazing... every new thing I learn, makes me more baffled on the ending. It really shows that it was a hidden process.

Also I like Adam somewhat, but he tends to always go against the popular opinion and defend it hard. So it's no surprise where he stands on the matter.



I'd agree... what amazing trilogy are you standing by?

I think it's either mordin lives or Wrex dies.

imo, having korgans in this war would be more useful than salarians.

 

[Zomba13]

WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN

The first one means he's speculating a LiaraXReaper Shepard fan fic and the second means Tali would have wanted everyone to become half robots (like the Geth that wiped out her race).

 

[Zeliard]

It's certainly not perfect, but I'd venture it's a hell of a lot better than what we got.

The "humans are special" trope already exists within the ME universe. All this does is repurpose it.

(Don't get too hung up on my phrasing by the way. I seem to remember that the original phrasing was more along the lines of humanity having more variation or something that was a bit better justified)

The "humans are special" trope was actually a bit more limited in ME3. That was one of its positives. The Crucible that ended up key was a blueprint that had been built up over many previous races, fostering that sense of galactic cooperation, even throughout several different cycles. The Catalyst didn't end up being Shepard - thankfully - but rather technology that had always been there.

The Protheans were also continually contrasted with the modern cycle, with the game heavily implying if not outright stating that the major reason the Protheans failed is that they were imperialistic and didn't work with other races to beat the Reapers. And that the reason the modern cycle did stand a chance is because they did just that. It was ultimately a galactic effort - over the course of many cycles - that stopped the Reapers by the end. Though I'm not sure how much of that you get if you never got the Javik DLC (I still maintain that making that DLC is by far the worst thing Bioware/EA did with ME3).

The dark energy ending simply makes it so that humans are uber-special and the key to everything, and it makes the Reapers seem fairly stupid (and still quite knowable indeed). Shepard's importance is fine - he's the main character and his name is "Shepard" so they were never trying to be remotely subtle with the Jesus allusions (nor should his self-sacrifice at the end been a surprise to anybody paying attention). Plus the guy is basically a cyborg after ME2. But for humanity as a whole to be so critical where every other race was an abject failure would be a step too far.

 

[Zen]

There have been plenty of journalists who've come out and said they don't like the ending. They all seem to be against the idea of changing it, though.

They've been few and far between from what I've seen. Examples would be awesome.

 

[Rebel Leader]

The only logical explanation is that the so called journalists have been indoctrinated.

The more I see it, the sadder I am

 

[Massa]

They've been few and far between from what I've seen. Examples would be awesome.

Jeff Gerstmann and the rest of the GB crew, Justin McElroy, Garnett Lee are a few that come to mind.

The four in the VoxGames article are the first I've seen speaking well of the ending actually.

 

[Derrick01]

So how are all you entitled assholes here doing today? Whine a lot?

 

[Rebel Leader]

So how are all you entitled assholes here doing today? Whine a lot?

How dare you be entitled of asking

 

[Sojgat]

Babylon 5, with it's five season lasting storyline. There were some lower points (the 1st season, and the firsth half of the 5th season), but it definitely ended in a satisfactory way, and offered the needed closure unlike ME3.

Mass Effect series owes a great deal to B5 series(Reapers/Shadows, Turian-human/Minbari-human first contact war, Krogans/Narn...), unfortunately the one thing they didn't copy was how it all was ended.

Babylon 5 is one of the lone examples of an epic multipart story being pre planned from the outset, that's part of the reason it works so well. There is payoff for things you see in the very first episode, the complete lack of anything like this in ME3 is part of what hurts the ending so much. On top of everything else it just seems abrupt and out of the blue.

 

[hateradio]

So how are all you entitled assholes here doing today? Whine a lot?

I have Asperger's, how dare you!

 

[GrandHarrier]

So how are all you entitled assholes here doing today? Whine a lot?

Keep your invasive questions to yourself. You working for the Journalists?

 

[Derrick01]

Keep your invasive questions to yourself. You working for the Journalists?

I may or may not have an IGN application in my hands. I am also totally not calling you guys names to win them over either.

 

[Haunted]

barf

 

[Melchiah]

Babylon 5 is one of the lone examples of an epic multipart story being pre planned from the outset, that's part of the reason it works so well. There is payoff for things you see in the very first episode, the complete lack of anything like this in ME3 is part of what hurts the ending so much. On top of everything else it just seems abrupt and out of the blue.

ME is probably the closest any game series have come to B5, but it's beyond comprehension how they could fuck it all up so bad in the last minutes.

 

[Minion101]

I don't think most journalists are attacking people who hate the ending, they are attacking people who are petitioning to change it. Even Jeff Gerstmann finds that idea insane.

 

[Rapstah]

Not even a single mixed review? Even Half-Life 2 has the occasional one. Mass Effect 1 has a couple. Is it too soon for those reviews to be dropping in?

 

[GrandHarrier]

I don't think most journalists are attacking people who hate the ending, they are attacking people who are petitioning to change it. Even Jeff Gerstmann finds that idea insane.

Almost every journalist who claims that changing the ending would be a precedent always, always, ALWAYS forget that it already happened in Fallout 3. For sucks sake. How did they forget that?

 

[RedRedSuit]

Even though the endings are shit, please don't ever use Metacritic user reviews as evidence for anything real. ME3 user reviews were super-low seconds after the game's release before anyone could have conceivably even finished the game. It was just a knee-jerk campaign due to various annoying things like day-one DLC.

 

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

ME is probably the closest any game series have come to B5, but it's beyond comprehension how they could fuck it all up so bad in the last minutes.

In what way?
2 proved they had no idea what to do with a long term narrative.

 

[RedRedSuit]

I don't think most journalists are attacking people who hate the ending, they are attacking people who are petitioning to change it. Even Jeff Gerstmann finds that idea insane.

And I agree. It is insane. It's a crap ending, and it's not wrong to want it changed because it's "entitlement" or any other such bullshit. It's wrong because it's impractical. You can't put humpty-dumpty back together again. It happened.

It is however reasonable that some sort of epilogue or something would at least clear some stuff up. The damage can't be undone, but it can be mitigated.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

mass effect is a deeply humanistic franchise, and what they do with the end (an unfeeling immortal machine god giving you three prebaked options for changing the galaxy on an unfathomable scale with space magic, then never showing the fate of your relationships except implying that they become new Adam and Eves, and then showing that you've become deified centuries later) really is the ultimate statement of what their underlying philosophy is
-adam sessler

 

[Cartman86]

Almost every journalist who claims that changing the ending would be a precedent always, always, ALWAYS forget that it already happened in Fallout 3. For sucks sake. How did they forget that?

I want to see a debate on this with regards to gameplay. Is story different than gameplay? Mass Effect and Assassin's Creed are examples of games that changed directly because of fan and critical opinions in sequels and presumably in development. I personally don't know where I stand on this, because at times I see the good in it (Valve's precision) and other times I see the bad (dumbing down of games etc.)

 

[Minion101]

Almost every journalist who claims that changing the ending would be a precedent always, always, ALWAYS forget that it already happened in Fallout 3. For sucks sake. How did they forget that?

That ending was only changed to allow you to play DLC if you beat the game.

This is a better example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMzpzX2s7T8&feature=player_embedded

 

[Cartman86]

mass effect is a deeply humanistic franchise, and what they with the end (an unfeeling immortal machine god giving you three prebaked options for changing the galaxy on an unfathomable scale with space magic, then never showing the fate of your relationships except implying that they become new Adam and Eves, and then showing that you've become deified centuries later) really is the ultimate statement of what their underlying philosophy is
-adam sessler

oh and almost every Alien race seems to believe in some sort of afterlife to which Shepard's response is always "Yeah sure, or silence."

 

[Haunted]

Even though the endings are shit, please don't ever use Metacritic user reviews as evidence for anything real. ME3 user reviews were super-low seconds after the game's release before anyone could have conceivably even finished the game. It was just a knee-jerk campaign due to various annoying things like day-one DLC.

I don't think I've made a statement either way, you're projecting.

 

[RedRedSuit]

I don't think I've made a statement either way, you're projecting.

OK. My only point is MC user reviews are basically meaningless drivel. That's all.

 

[Massa]

I want to see a debate on this with regards to gameplay. Is story different than gameplay? Mass Effect and Assassin's Creed are examples of games that changed directly because of fan and critical opinions in sequels and presumably in development. I personally don't know where I stand on this, because at times I see the good in it (Valve's precision) and other times I see the bad (dumbing down of games etc.)

Developers that don't read feedback are bad. Valve is great at it, and I believe they're delaying both CS:GO and their dota-style game based on player feedback.

Asking Bioware to change the story of their released game is not the same as asking them to listen to user feedback.

I don't think I've made a statement either way, you're projecting.

So you just randomly posted that image?

 

[Cartman86]

Developers that don't read feedback are bad. Valve is great at it, and I believe they're delaying both CS:GO and their dota-style game based on player feedback.

Asking Bioware to change the story of their released game is not the same as asking them to listen to user feedback.




So you just randomly posted that image?

Would listening to user feedback of ME3's ending and adding explanations, epilogues etc in the DLC be okay? Not that it would make a difference though as the ending is still what it is.

 

[- J - D -]

mass effect is a deeply humanistic franchise, and what they do with the end (an unfeeling immortal machine god giving you three prebaked options for changing the galaxy on an unfathomable scale with space magic, then never showing the fate of your relationships except implying that they become new Adam and Eves, and then showing that you've become deified centuries later) really is the ultimate statement of what their underlying philosophy is
-adam sessler

The Sess said this? Where's it from?

 

[Haunted]

OK. My only point is MC user reviews are basically meaningless drivel. That's all.

I think most of the user reviews are drivel. I also think that most of the professional reviews aren't much better.

So you just randomly posted that image?

Yeah, my hand basically slipped on the keyboard.

It's just a funny image highlighting the difference in perception between critics and the audience.

 

[RedRedSuit]

I think a large majority of the professional reviews are meaningless drivel as well.

Heh. I had a feeling you might say that in response. Well, I disagree. That is hyperbole. But let's not get into that.

 

[rdrr gnr]

It seemed like a pretty consistent thematic thing, that you're haunted by this ghost representative of the people you can't save, and the things you can't change. And at the ending, it's in your face as this thing you can't change. From a literary perspective, i think that that's slick.

No. No. You don't get to say that.

The Sess said this? Where's it from?

Read his G4 review. Hell, just read the excerpt on Metacritic. It's embarrassing.

 

[RDreamer]

I listened to the podcast, and while I think they were being too dismissive of the points you guys are making I'd have to say you guys are also rather dismissive of their points and their feelings on the game.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

The only thing that I thought at the ending, and this is I think is more me than the game design, is I was so wrapped up in what was about to happen I didn't fully realize I had three choices in front of me, and I just walked into the light. And then I did that and realized "I think there was some opportunity, some other choices there, and went back.

how do you

how do you turn your brain off enough in a game that even when the game literally stops and shows you three options and then tells you to pick one, that you don't realize what to do other than "hold up on stick"

 

[Haunted]

how do you

how do you turn your brain off enough in a game that even when the game literally stops and shows you three options and then tells you to pick one, that you don't realize what to do other than "hold up on stick"

He must've been playing Uncharted 3 FFXIII beforehand.

 

[HK-47]

WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN

I heard some sociological and philosophical words once and I decided to try them out

 

[RedRedSuit]

how do you

how do you turn your brain off enough in a game that even when the game literally stops and shows you three options and then tells you to pick one, that you don't realize what to do other than "hold up on stick"

heh

Personally I went to the left one with this weird hope for a further explanation as I approached it. It was such a rip-off of Deus Ex: Human Revolution that I seriously felt that might happen. It didn't....

 

[Massa]

Would listening to user feedback of ME3's ending and adding explanations, epilogues etc in the DLC be okay? Not that it would make a difference though as the ending is still what it is.

I think that depends entirely on execution. For example if it's paid DLC then it fails right out of the gate. If it feels like a different ending to appease fans instead of simply a better execution of the original idea I'll probably not bother with another Bioware game anytime soon.

I was actually going to buy the From Ashes DLC at the start of next month but I'm holding off until this shit gets resolved.

 

[RDreamer]

how do you

how do you turn your brain off enough in a game that even when the game literally stops and shows you three options and then tells you to pick one, that you don't realize what to do other than "hold up on stick"

This I genuinely don't understand either. There were people that posted that same thing here too and it was just as bizarre

 

[aku08]

the unfortunate thing about this is that most gaming media right now are talking about how they hate the petition for the ending change, and don't actually spend more time about what they feel about the ending. that's what i want to know, that's what i'm interested in. but every time they get to the ending part of their discussions, it devolves to 'lol fans are so entitled, fuck 'em lol'.

well, some of them say their gonna do spoiler casts, so hopefully they separate that discussion and actually talk about what they felt about the ending.