• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Meanwhile in The Netherlands; Blackface tradition returns for another celebration

Status
Not open for further replies.

Audioboxer

Member
My kid just wants the party; sinterklaas is here to stay; but they are changing the Pieten (which is a good thing).

Yesterday I saw only happy children (which sinterklaas is aimed at.. every color). It was unity...

Please, dont kill this awesome children party. Just change zwarte piet and be done.

No one is asking to take away Christmas celebrations. Heck I'm not religious and I love Christmas. Visiting Christmas markets in the UK is awesome ~ http://www.edinburghschristmas.com/whats-on/european-christmas-market

So yeah, many countries do tons of great stuff around Christmas. It's suppose to be inclusive and diverse though, not racist. Skin colour isn't a costume.
 
No one is asking to take away Christmas celebrations. Heck I'm not religious and I love Christmas. Visiting Christmas markets in the UK is awesome ~ http://www.edinburghschristmas.com/whats-on/european-christmas-market

So yeah, many countries do tons of great stuff around Christmas. It's suppose to be inclusive and diverse though, not racist. Skin colour isn't a costume.
Agree.

Skin colour is not a costume, but it would be nice if this was discussed just in a normal way not in front of the children (who do not see the color, just the happy party).

Discuss this in the summer and show the results in november to the kids. Dont shout, scream and threat in front of kids that aren't seeing the problem.Adults are fucking terrible sometimes...

This party needs to change; most people see it, that's a good thing. Now time it correctly and start solving it for next year.
 

-MB-

Member
Agree.

Skin colour is not a costume, but it would be nice if this was discussed just in a normal way not in front of the children (who do not see the color, just the happy party).

Discuss this in the summer and show the results in november to the kids. Dont shout, scream and threat in front of kids that aren't seeing the problem.Adults are fucking terrible sometimes...

This party needs to change; most people see it, that's a good thing. Now time it correctly and start solving it for next year.

tbf, there is proof some kids DO see the color, as is shown in accountings of black kids getting called Zwarte Piet by classmates at school. So while it is true many smaller kids might not make the direct connection straight away, many still seem to be able to.
 
Its amazing to how entitled white people are. The second a minority speaks up and wants white people to change even just slightly, to consider the right of the minority, the white people go in full on victim mode and go apeshit.
Minorities are only welcome when the white standards can stay exactly as they are, when the minorities are whiter then the white people themselves.
Truly disgusting and scary.

A german comedian once said that germans expect immigrants to be more german than germans dare to be. And I think thats largely the case.
"I'm not racist, I tolerate immigrants as long as they are exactly like me."
 

-Plasma Reus-

Service guarantees member status
I find the quick bannings as disturbing as the Piet stuff tbh. And not the best way to discuss things or do something about racism.
People shouldn't be afraid to post and be branded racists and banned. I thought recent events would have made this even more obvious than before but apparently not.

Nope.
Racist people should be branded as such. Winning by slim margins doesn't mean should be immune to this.
 
I agree with all of you guys. I just don't think that the approach isn't thought out.
There are two side in everything and the most useful way is to think both ways; so attacking during a party aimed at children is not the way (as far as I can see). A dude is arrested for waiving a fucking ax at a party with thousands of children!

It envokes a reaction which isn't good for getting a solid solution.

Every year this thread starts in november. Why can't we talk way earlier and present solutions? It has to change; everybody agrees..
 

Audioboxer

Member
I agree with all of you guys. I just don't think that the approach isn't thought out.
There are two side in everything and the most useful way is to think both ways; so attacking during a party aimed at children is not the way (as far as I can see). A dude is arrested for waiving a fucking ax at a party with thousands of children!

It envokes a reaction which isn't good for getting a solid solution.

Every year this thread starts in november. Why can't we talk way earlier and present solutions? It has to change; everybody agrees..

Active protest during the event is like the main means to protest. Yes there are children there, but if no one is breaking the law or inciting intimidation then it is but a mere educational lesson for children to see what democracy is (and how protest is used).

As much as people may want to excuse children from fully understanding the concept of blackface, parents of said children do need to be dragged away from being so illiberal around tradition, especially when the rest of the world is screaming at Holland.

Think of the children really isn't a good excuse here. As it ironically IS thinking of the children and trying to prevent them the embarrassment of the whole world looking on at their country and sighing. Not to mention trying to save them from being the victims of having their face tarred in black facepaint as if it's cool to wear someones skin colour as a costume.

EsqZ090.jpg
 

Combichristoffersen

Combovers don't work when there is no hair
In other news, a black Sinterklaas, who was trying to bridge the divide by offering an second alternative to the white master figure of Sinterklaas was also refused entry into the city that is hosting the televised parade this year

6ac7054c-a8cd-11e6-97b2-34b446c375a6_web_scale_0.0511876_0.0511876__.jpg

Frankly, I find this more fucked up than the Zwarte Piet thing. That said, what's the historical background of Zwarte Piet, why is he black? Did the tradition start during the colony times as a form of racist mockery of Africans?
 

Merino

Member
A dude is arrested for waiving a fucking ax at a party with thousands of children!
You are blowing things up out of proportion and removed from factual context.

A Polish man was arrested walking around with a bag that contained an axe and other tools. This man was walking towards his work and just happened to pass by the parade. It had nothing to do with Sinterklaas or any protest.

Check your damn facts!

Also this whole argument about not protesting during the celebration itself and only doing it during the rest of the year is absolute shit. If the original protester Jerry Afriyie hadn't done his first protest in 2011 at the event itself the whole discussion wouldn't even have been opened up in the first place. I think a racist event is the prime location for a protest against it. Also it was never violent, never disturbing, never attacking anything. It was always a peaceful protest and the only ones that applied force and violence were the police and the defenders of Zwarte Piet.

0301a01fig1.jpg


This is how it started. Just a guy with a t-shirt with a slogan standing silently and peacefully at the racist parade in 2011.

arrestatieGario.jpg


And this is how the police decided to react against a t-shirt that spoke out against racism.
 

Jinjo

Member
I agree with all of you guys. I just don't think that the approach isn't thought out.
There are two side in everything and the most useful way is to think both ways; so attacking during a party aimed at children is not the way (as far as I can see). A dude is arrested for waiving a fucking ax at a party with thousands of children!

It envokes a reaction which isn't good for getting a solid solution.

Every year this thread starts in november. Why can't we talk way earlier and present solutions? It has to change; everybody agrees..

You are grossly hyperbolizing the news. The guy carrying around an axe was a worker going home from work, unaware of the emergency situation in the city, walked home his normal route and police arrested him. He was promptly released because his arrest had no proper cause. No actual protester was waving around an axe at a kids party.

And protests at the live event should happen, as hopefully the kids themselves will ask their parents why these protests are happening ("why are people protesting against zwarte piet, he bring us presents?") and then it forces the parents to no longer hide behind ignorance towards their children.
 

Audioboxer

Member
You are grossly hyperbolizing the news. The guy carrying around an axe was a worker going home from work, unaware of the emergency situation in the city, walked home his normal route and police arrested him. He was promptly released because his arrest had no proper cause. No actual protester was waving around an axe at a kids party.

And protests at the live event should happen, as hopefully the kids themselves will ask their parents why these protests are happening ("why are people protesting against zwarte piet, he bring us presents?") and then it forces the parents to no longer hide behind ignorance towards their children.

Damn, let this be further proof sensationalist headlines and gossip spreading online can have zero basis in reality. Thanks Facebook.
 
Thanks, I didn't knew the ax story was false. Excuse me.

Yes, let's throw all of Europe in the trash because of one (ok, two) country's racist tradition. This shit wouldn't fly here in Sweden, I can tell you that much.
Europe suck; America is winning.
All lumped, or is it Trumped ;) (just kidding!).
 
The protesters where in Rotterdam..not maasluis they where on there way and where locked in place for no reason. Even the police didn't know what the hell they where doing, people where oppressed for there freedom of speech, there freedom of assembly all violated by the police this will get a tail because of it.

They arrested peaceful protesters but i do saw that neo-nazi's from the NVU got escorted by the police to held there own protests and use racial slurs and show racism because that is good? What in a world are we living in?
No, this is not oppression. They refused to work with police, who offered to escort them to the place they could protest and make their message heard. They refused, and by that went against the local authorities ban for that day, which was in place because of safety concerns.

What the hell is a protest zone? Is this shit for real?
On large events there are designated areas to protest. This is to prevent any safety issues and the clashing of opposing protest groups. This is a very normal thing and has always been.
 
On large events there are designated areas to protest. This is to prevent any safety issues and the clashing of opposing protest groups. This is a very normal thing and has always been.

Please protest in this box so you can easily be ignored and not heard while we continue with our racist tradition. Can't believe this is "normal".
 

Joni

Member
Please protest in this box so you can easily be ignored and not heard while we continue with our racist tradition. Can't believe this is "normal".

And so that you stand out the way of the roads for police cars, fire trucks and you don't get to close the group who you are going to fight with. THe protests were heavily covered. THey could have been on the other side of the country and still be covered. This isn't some unique case. This is how protests are always organized. You could do a generic pro-peace gathering and you'd have to follow these rules. Just like Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights prescribes.
 

Hypnotoad

Member
I find the quick bannings as disturbing as the Piet stuff tbh. And not the best way to discuss things or do something about racism.
People shouldn't be afraid to post and be branded racists and banned. I thought recent events would have made this even more obvious than before but apparently not.

This was Shahadan's last post, so I guess he was banned for it? That seems like an overreaction, he wasn't even on the Swarte Piet defence-force, he just voiced his concern about quick banning of differing opinions.
 
Please protest in this box so you can easily be ignored and not heard while we continue with our racist tradition. Can't believe this is "normal".
How do you think large protests are normally organized? The organisations for the most part work together with the authorities to handle safety issues and prevent trouble.

And no, the protests were not in a box far away and out of sight, they were along the route as far as I know, so it wouldn't be ignored.

You have to realize that there are also groups that counter protest, and those groups clashing is not something you want. Like those idiots from the NVU mentioned earlier, who are happy to incite violence if given the opportunity.
 

Audioboxer

Member
Please protest in this box so you can easily be ignored and not heard while we continue with our racist tradition. Can't believe this is "normal".

For the most part it honestly isn't as rigid as you're putting it across. When protest areas are organised they are not held away from the event, but right at the event. With things like street events it is usually just so the actual event can go ahead in whatever space it needs (if there are floats/stalls/entertainment services needing room). Completely forcefully shutting down an event is not always the best form of protest.

As I said early on in this topic it can make sense in the middle of cities or towns, especially in Europe, where there isn't a lot of room. Holland can be incredibly narrow. Or at least the only city I've visited, Amsterdam, is pretty damn compact and has canals everywhere! If people end up getting injured or worse, deaths, government is going to be fucking crucified for not handling protests better. As I've said in here though government has to allow protest and cannot just arrest people for it, that is a breach of your rights and democracy.
 

7threst

Member
Please protest in this box so you can easily be ignored and not heard while we continue with our racist tradition. Can't believe this is "normal".

Protests are very well covered by Dutch news outlets and protest zones aren't necesarily designated places (which are near events anyway). It can be a route through the city also. It's mostly to ensure safety.
 

spekkeh

Banned
Frankly, I find this more fucked up than the Zwarte Piet thing. That said, what's the historical background of Zwarte Piet, why is he black? Did the tradition start during the colony times as a form of racist mockery of Africans?
No, though at the same time, we really don't know how it started. Zwarte Piet seems linked to krampus and other midwinter festivities, where people would soot up their face to become unrecognizable, but it's a lot of folk tales mixed into one, so it's kind of guess work as to the exact progenitor. Most people agree modern Sinterklaas started around 1850, at which time interestingly it was starting to get overtaken by modern Christmas, which is an evolution of Sinterklaas. To combat this, modern tales of Sinterklaas were created and written down, and the most popular one was by Schenkman, a teacher/ children book writer from Amsterdam. He wrote about Sinterklaas having a black helper boy. The reason why this boy was black Schenkman sadly never talked about, so we honestly don't know. There's some circumstantial evidence that Schenkman was at least close to the abolitionist movement and consequently it is somewhat plausible Zwarte Piet might have actually been included to show black people are kind-hearted, as a kind of progressive statement. Then again, or corroborating this, depending on how you look at it, Schenkman did posthumously publish something on the minstrel shows, saying that he didn't mind white people dressing up as black, because so many men of e.g. the clergy had white skin but black hearts. Which obviously by today's standards is a fucked up thing to say, but at that time was probably considered pretty progressive. Anyway, so the people who would normally make themselves unrecognizable by dressing up like Sinterklaas or sooting up their face now wanted to dress up like a black boy, and I guess as minstrel shows became more popular, so the blackface became the way to go, a caricature of black people based on slavery. And there we are. A hundred years later the majority of the country claiming it is not racist and it has nothing to do with the US or slavery. The origin might be neutral or even relatively benign, that's not what it became pretty quickly.
 

Beefy

Member
Agree.

Skin colour is not a costume, but it would be nice if this was discussed just in a normal way not in front of the children (who do not see the color, just the happy party).

Discuss this in the summer and show the results in november to the kids. Dont shout, scream and threat in front of kids that aren't seeing the problem.Adults are fucking terrible sometimes...

This party needs to change; most people see it, that's a good thing. Now time it correctly and start solving it for next year.

Discussing in a "normal way" never works.
 

Merino

Member
No, this is not oppression. They refused to work with police, who offered to escort them to the place they could protest and make their message heard. They refused, and by that went against the local authorities ban for that day, which was in place because of safety concerns.
We will see what the courts will say about this as according to the lawyer present it wasn't exactly as you paint it to be now.


Also one of the original activists Jerry Afriyie was standing at a distance from the rest of the protesters yet he was nevertheless pulled in to the protester group by the police with force and arrested.

In terms of the two originators of the protests, Quinsy Gario and Jerry Afriyie there has actually been numerous cases of documented oppression from 2011 up till last year.

The police and public prosecutor tried to make an example out of Jerry Afriyie and took him to court over his resisting arrest in 2014 but last October the court ruled that actually it was the police that had applied too much force during their arrest.

There was no evidence of a threat of disturbances to local order and there was thus no need for the police to grab the suspect without verbal contact and pull him from the chain of protesters

Nevertheless the public prosecutor has decided to appeal the decision.

On this video it is very clearly visible how in 2014 in Gouda it was right extremists and police that escalated the situation with the protesters being the oppressed victims.

Wurging.jpg


Since starting the protests Afiryie has been involved in three different court battles, lost his job, been receiving constant death threats and is persecuted by the police rather than protected by them.
 

RangerX

Banned
This is just blatant racism. I don't get how there is even a discussion about it. Can't they be painted another colour?
 
We will see what the courts will say about this as according to the lawyer present it wasn't exactly as you paint it to be now.

Also one of the original activists Jerry Afriyie was standing at a distance from the rest of the protesters yet he was nevertheless pulled in to the protester group by the police with force and arrested.

In terms of the two originators of the protests, Quinsy Gario and Jerry Afriyie there has actually been numerous cases of documented oppression from 2011 up till last year.

The police and public prosecutor tried to make an example out of Jerry Afriyie and took him to court over his resisting arrest in 2014 but last October the court ruled that actually it was the police that had applied too much force during their arrest.

Nevertheless the public prosecutor has decided to appeal the decision.

On this video it is very clearly visible how in 2014 in Gouda it was right extremists and police that escalated the situation with the protesters being the oppressed victims.

Wurging.jpg


Since starting the protests Afiryie has been involved in three different court battles, lost his job, been receiving constant death threats and is persecuted by the police rather than protected by them.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the police has not made mistakes about this in the past. But I don't think the events this year fall under oppression when it comes to what happened to the demonstration.

Giving protesters their own zones is standard procedure, certainly during public events or when there are opposing groups. For example, we also saw this when Pegida held a protest in Amsterdam some time ago, and another group counter protested that. Both had to stick to their places due to safety concerns.
 

Combichristoffersen

Combovers don't work when there is no hair
No, though at the same time, we really don't know how it started. Zwarte Piet seems linked to krampus and other midwinter festivities, where people would soot up their face to become unrecognizable, but it's a lot of folk tales mixed into one, so it's kind of guess work as to the exact progenitor. Most people agree modern Sinterklaas started around 1850, at which time interestingly it was starting to get overtaken by modern Christmas, which is an evolution of Sinterklaas. To combat this, modern tales of Sinterklaas were created and written down, and the most popular one was by Schenkman, a teacher/ children book writer from Amsterdam. He wrote about Sinterklaas having a black helper boy. The reason why this boy was black Schenkman sadly never talked about, so we honestly don't know. There's some circumstantial evidence that Schenkman was at least close to the abolitionist movement and consequently it is somewhat plausible Zwarte Piet might have actually been included to show black people are kind-hearted, as a kind of progressive statement. Then again, or corroborating this, depending on how you look at it, Schenkman did posthumously publish something on the minstrel shows, saying that he didn't mind white people dressing up as black, because so many men of e.g. the clergy had white skin but black hearts. Which obviously by today's standards is a fucked up thing to say, but at that time was probably considered pretty progressive. Anyway, so the people who would normally make themselves unrecognizable by dressing up like Sinterklaas or sooting up their face now wanted to dress up like a black boy, and I guess as minstrel shows became more popular, so the blackface became the way to go, a caricature of black people based on slavery. And there we are. A hundred years later the majority of the country claiming it is not racist and it has nothing to do with the US or slavery. The origin might be neutral or even relatively benign, that's not what it became pretty quickly.

Thanks for the info. I guess I'm sort of divided on the issue. The tradition does seem to have a more or less innocent origin, and as you mention, even possibly originated as an attempt to paint a more positive picture of black people as Santa's helpers. That said, the tradition in its current form is obviously just blackface, and racist. I guess a middle ground would be to keep Zwarte Piet but drop the blackface.

We've sort of had the same issue in Scandinavia regarding the use of the word 'neger'. The word in itself has no negative connotation as it's just a germanic version of the latin word negro, and thus just means black, as in a dark-skinned person. The word has mostly fallen out of use as POC found it offensive and connected it with the N-word in the US, which is nonsense as the two words have completely different historical contexts. Amusingly enough some people with an, uh, debatable opinion on POC dropped 'neger' and started referring to Africans as 'blåmenn' ('blue men', the word vikings used for Africans).
 
Yea blackface is bad.

Just don't do it.

Also the very idea of protest zones defeats the purpose of protesting to begin with.

You're supposed to be a nuisance.
 

7threst

Member
Thanks for the info. I guess I'm sort of divided on the issue. The tradition does seem to have a more or less innocent origin, and as you mention, even possibly originated as an attempt to paint a more positive picture of black people as Santa's helpers. That said, the tradition in its current form is obviously just blackface, and racist. I guess a middle ground would be to keep Zwarte Piet but drop the blackface.

We've sort of had the same issue in Scandinavia regarding the use of the word 'neger'. The word in itself has no negative connotation as it's just a germanic version of the latin word negro, and thus just means black, as in a dark-skinned person. The word has mostly fallen out of use as POC found it offensive and connected it with the N-word in the US, which is nonsense as the two words have completely different historical contexts. Amusingly enough some people with an, uh, debatable opinion on POC dropped 'neger' and started referring to Africans as 'blåmenn' ('blue men', the word vikings used for Africans).

Weird how it's almost the other way around in the Netherlands. We too have the word 'neger', but even though nobody actually use this word a lot outside of certain contexts (Dutch hiphop for example), it's considered way less offensive than 'zwarten' (which literally means 'blacks' in Dutch).
 

Combichristoffersen

Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Weird how it's almost the other way around in the Netherlands. We too have the word 'neger', but even though nobody actually use this word a lot outside of certain contexts (Dutch hiphop for example), it's considered way less offensive than 'zwarten' (which literally means 'blacks' in Dutch).

'Svart' has also been used in Norway for describing Africans, but I think it's mostly fallen out of use. I'd say 'mørkhudet' ('dark-skinned') is probably the word that is generally used nowadays.
 

Hayvic

Member
Apparently a special unit of the police was in "plain clothes" during the festivities on Saturday. They tweeted out this image, it has been deleted now:
n140jgi.jpg


"If you're nice you'll get sweets, if naughty you'll have to deal with the "Parate Eenheid". Mission: to secure Sinterklaas during his arrival."

The first part is a play on a Sinterklaas carol.
 

Jinjo

Member
Amnesty International spoke out against Rotterdam's handling of the protests. According to them Rotterdam "violated human rights with the demonstration ban", which was called "unlawful and disproportional". In particular, they highlight the unlawful arrests made by the police and the disproportional violence that accompanied them. They said that the lack of knowledge by the general public was not a reason to call for a total demonstration ban and that calling state of emergency for the city should only be done in severe cases and that the major of the city doesn't even have the authority to do so. In conclusion they question how serious the authorities take freedom of speech and the right to protest.

Good that they are getting involved because it was completely over the line.

In other news, Belgiums are backpedalling on the "Pieten-pact" (blackface portrayal of Pieten is banned), because the public spoke out the change is "too quick". So now it supposedly goes into effect next year instead....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom