Increased American and western pressure as well as forcing Dutch to take a look at what it is is what has caused the shify, but the article largely ignores the massive shift and rise of the far right in the Netherlands. Geert Wilders and far right sentiments are gaining popularity and are starting to influence a lot of viewpoints. If Geert Wilders and his Party for Freedom (PVV) which is currently the most popular party take over, analysis of Zwarte Piet as racist would be the last thing people would need to worry about.
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The Dutch are slowly recognizing that their tradition of Zwarte Piet is racist
- Thread starter richiek
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double jump
you haven't lived until a random little kid ask you "how do you make love".
Underated post. lol
Fortuyn was assassinated nine days before the election, so we didn't know how much votes he would have gotten at the election. His party, the LPF, did win 26 of the 150 seats in Parliament (an insane amount for a new party), but a lot of those votes were probably out of sympathy and respect (the opposite of what his killer tried to achieve, really). Without him, the party never really had any leaders and the elections after that they would respectively 8 and 0 seats and got disbanded after that.
I'm Dutch myself and I really don't understand the whole fuss the pro-Zwarte Piet people are making. The whole problem lies in the blackface, combined with a curly wig and golden earrings. Just change it to the story how we tell our children; it's because of the chimney, so just smear his face full of soot and do away with the other facial ornaments. Problem solved, everyone happy and one less thread on NeoGAF a year.
KonradLaw
Member
It likely wouldn't be a real problem if Dutch society was still homogenous. But since it's getting increasingly multiethnic some traditions become problematic and this is one of them. Especially since you can keep the tradition will removing offensive elements, so there's really no point in sticking to it in it's current blackfaced version.
Thanks for clearing that up about Fortuyn. And I should've remembered it because I was reading that Wikipedia article a few months ago.
And is the Black Pete thread really a yearly thing here at GAF?
The last couple of years it is becoming a yearly tradition, yeah. Until we change our tradition, so we can finally discuss Wilders' hair properly.
TatteredHat
Member
Yes, it has been for a few years now. I imagine this won't be the only thread this year either.
Magic Mushroom
Member
I told this to some Zwarte Piet supporter on Twitter the other day. He thought I was scary because my opinion differed from the majority.
Sigh. He kept banging on about how most Dutch people want Zwarte Piet and that we live in a democracy so everything should stay the same.
The problem is that both sides seem completely unrelenting and unreasonable to even have at least a civil discussion on what to change and how to change it. Nobody is willing to even remotely place themselves in the others position and mindset and nobody is willing to have a sensible discussion. One side wants things to change this second and force the issue, while the other sides complete loses their shit when a supermarket decides to not have zwarte piet on the goddamn packaging of their Pepernoten, what in the actual fuck is wrong with this country?
Or at the very least, since both sides have some of the most gung-ho idiots that act more like little kids than the ones actually still believing in Sinterklaas, the sensible people seem to have more or less given up participating in the discussion.
If everyone just fucking calmed down for a second we could slowly phase out the current imagery of Zwarte Piet and move to a sensible sooth-stained Piet within 5 years without any problem.
The only good thing to come out of this mess it that the Dutch are finally starting to realize that our country has a history of casual racism that needs to be addressed.
Lol wtf, i like his hair, looks like an old English judge with a wig.
Belgian here, and as a kid I didn't think he was a black man too (I don't remember thinking it anyway). I think everyone under 35 to 40 was raised on the story he is black from soot, and we don't have the cultural bagage and knowledge to recognise the clothes as Moorish. I think this is also a reason why this is a tradition that is hard to kill or change. People aren't malevolent in it, they just don't see what is racist about it because the origins and backstoryt of Zwarte Piet changed trough the years. My parents (in their sixties) still knew him as a slave though, but the 50ies and 60ies were racist as fuck.
I still see this thing going on for a few years. As it has something to do with childhood, people are even more passionate about it. But more and more people are coming around to the idea of changing Piet a bit, just like the soot-story was introduced years ago to tackle the whole slave-thing.
This is actually what the Belgian Sinterklaas-movie of 2015 did. Zwarte Piet shows white skin between black sootmarks. They make a little joke about it, how he has been putting on black make-up for years because he thinks Sinterklaas will be angry if he isn't trough and trough black (I think he thinks Sinterklaas will see it as a sign he isn't working hard enough). But he misplaced his make-up and has to appear before Sinterklaas withouth the make-up and just with soot-marks, and Sinterklaas doesn't understand why he has put on make-up all that time...
100% this.
I'm not sure yet where I stand on this. I'm not convinced it's that racist the way it's implemented now, and it most certainly is not comparable to American blackface, which carries a whole other legacy that frankly does not apply here.
But it's true both sides have a lot of very vocal idiots, who shout over every single civilized voice out there.
Anyway, the change has already begun, it won't revert back to the way it was and I wouldn't be surprised it we just have soot covered people in a few years.
Meh, don't care that much for it anyway and if I were a parent I could imagine getting rid of it in its entirety to halve Decembers celebratory events (and accompanying costly presents) in favor of Christmas.
PS. Fuck kruidnoten already being available since early september. WTF.
Herbspiceguy
Member
Yes, that way anti racism crusaders can strike down on those fools. I believe that's the only purpose of the yearly zwarte piet threads.
Frozenprince
Banned
Exactly. if you explained to kids what the problem is and asked them if they'd be okay with change i'm sure that 70% mentioned earlier would be a lot lower. Kids just wanting their presents clearly aren't the problem and nobody said they are. It's the adults who think that admitting a holiday they enjoyed as a kid is racist means admitting they are racist themselves. Simply enjoying Sinterklaas doesn't make you racist, ignoring requests for change or even fighting against it however kinda does.
Nope. I don't know when exactly, some American should correct me on that, but in the US there was this whole thing around blackface in 50's/60's? Zwarte Piet is absolutely not the same.
Blackface has a huge backlash in the States for that reason, it doesn't have that kind of history in The Netherlands. Don't pretend it does. American blackface is not equal to painting your face brown/black in a lot of European countries.
Frozenprince
Banned
Right? Tired of this shit. It's insane. Every blackface thread.
Frozenprince
Banned
Did you even read that link? Seriously. Learn some history young blood.
lightskintwin
Banned
You're in denial if you believe American minstrelsy and it's imagery in the 19th century didn't affect how Zwarte Piet is depicted with the red lips and curly hair.
Anyways, racist or not. I think we are missing a huge chance to tackle racism in the future. Instead, we are making it worse.
I hope everybody agrees that "Zwarte Piet" is a positive figure that childs adore. I for once cursed at my stepdad because he took to long to open the door because I wanted to see "Zwarte Piet". The fact that adults and childs are making racist comments involving "Zwarte Piet" towards darker skinned people is not cool and shows that people are still or racist or just really inconsiderate.
So just replacing "Zwarte Piet" won't help. For me the people insulting darker skinned people with "Zwarte Piet" is just a symbol for the fact that racism still exists and even more than we think. But I agree it has to change it someway if people are offended by it.
But, I can't believe it's impossible to change a symbol that is black and loved by kids into something that will at least lessen racism and help people/kids understand that you can also hurt people without intending (one of the biggest issues is parents that see their kid hurting because he/she is called "Zwarte Piet" by other kids, and even tho that means probably nothing for the kid who is calling, but it does for the kid getting called " Zwarte Piet").
I hope everybody agrees that "Zwarte Piet" is a positive figure that childs adore. I for once cursed at my stepdad because he took to long to open the door because I wanted to see "Zwarte Piet". The fact that adults and childs are making racist comments involving "Zwarte Piet" towards darker skinned people is not cool and shows that people are still or racist or just really inconsiderate.
So just replacing "Zwarte Piet" won't help. For me the people insulting darker skinned people with "Zwarte Piet" is just a symbol for the fact that racism still exists and even more than we think. But I agree it has to change it someway if people are offended by it.
But, I can't believe it's impossible to change a symbol that is black and loved by kids into something that will at least lessen racism and help people/kids understand that you can also hurt people without intending (one of the biggest issues is parents that see their kid hurting because he/she is called "Zwarte Piet" by other kids, and even tho that means probably nothing for the kid who is calling, but it does for the kid getting called " Zwarte Piet").
This may be news to you but your history of blackface is literally Zwarte Piet. Just because Americans were able to realize their sins due to the significant black population, doesn't make it some isolated case that only exist in America. Your country has a racist colonialist with their subjugation of Africans that you should recognize and not handwave this as alien to your culture.
Didn't elect the guy, because the chance to do so was taken away by his murdering.
We did elect his party afterwards though, but who knows if it would have happened if he did not get killed. I was personally against everything he stood for, and are against everything Wilders stand for.
Not yet, I will, should prove for some interesting reading. I'll dray my own conclusions from that.
Frozenprince
Banned
There are no conclusions to draw. Your tradition is based on minstrel shows, a racist caricature of black people
Don't fool yourselves, Zwarte Piet isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The majority of the population still sees it as an innocent "tradition". It doesn't help that the acceptance of Zwarte Piet still gets passed on to the newer generations so that the cycle of "I grew up with this, this is completely fine!!" gets a chance to start all over again.
You can't really discuss this topic with your average Dutchie (and specially not as a foreigner) as you'll mostly get stuff like:
- "I see norhing racist about it, it's you that makes it racist, are you racist?"
- "If you don't agree with our culture then you're free to get the hell out of this country."
- "How can you want to ruin this for the children? Do you even have a heart?"
- "You're a Piet yourself aren't you?"
- "Who are you to tell us how to live? You're not even Dutch"
Specially the rural areas and the smaller cities/villages tend to cling on strongly to this tradition. I still see busses full of people dressed as Zwarte Piet as they're heading off to some Sinterklaas party as volunteers.
IF, and only IF Zwarte Piet gets scrapped altogether then I'm pretty sure a sizeable part of the population isn't going to take that kindly, I mean there were even people protesting when the idea came up that Zwarte Piet could also have another skin color...
It also doesn't help that some neo nazi groups are also strong supporters of Piet and this whole tradition. The Dutch population needs another generation before this "tradition" can change. Most of the supporters of banning Zwarte Piet are mainly black (foreigners) which shows that Dutch people are still fine with it, television shows etc are also firm supporters of Zwarte Piet which only fuels the support Zwarte Piet is getting.
Nope, I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon.
You can't really discuss this topic with your average Dutchie (and specially not as a foreigner) as you'll mostly get stuff like:
- "I see norhing racist about it, it's you that makes it racist, are you racist?"
- "If you don't agree with our culture then you're free to get the hell out of this country."
- "How can you want to ruin this for the children? Do you even have a heart?"
- "You're a Piet yourself aren't you?"
- "Who are you to tell us how to live? You're not even Dutch"
Specially the rural areas and the smaller cities/villages tend to cling on strongly to this tradition. I still see busses full of people dressed as Zwarte Piet as they're heading off to some Sinterklaas party as volunteers.
IF, and only IF Zwarte Piet gets scrapped altogether then I'm pretty sure a sizeable part of the population isn't going to take that kindly, I mean there were even people protesting when the idea came up that Zwarte Piet could also have another skin color...
It also doesn't help that some neo nazi groups are also strong supporters of Piet and this whole tradition. The Dutch population needs another generation before this "tradition" can change. Most of the supporters of banning Zwarte Piet are mainly black (foreigners) which shows that Dutch people are still fine with it, television shows etc are also firm supporters of Zwarte Piet which only fuels the support Zwarte Piet is getting.
Nope, I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon.
"describing a troupe as "SEVEN SLAVES just from Alabama, who are EARNING THEIR FREEDOM by giving concerts under the guidance of their Northern friends"
lolwat
I'll read it for myself, thanks.
In a quick skim of the article I see no mention of its influences in other countries. I'll compare what's there with some articles on the history here.
TBiddy
Member
I think there's a lot of difference between the image you posted and this (which is the original illustration from the book where Zwarte Piet first appeared):
Frozenprince
Banned
And does his modern version look like the one you posted?
TBiddy
Member
That's not really relevant to my point.
Frozenprince
Banned
Your point is irrelevant. What the original version looked like on an illustration is pointless. The version of your tradition that's taken hold and become as popular as it is it's based off of a racist caricature of black people.
TBiddy
Member
It's not "my" tradition. I'm not Dutch. And spare me the patronizing comments, please.
I'm pointing out, that Zwarte Piet originally wasn't inspired by the classic American steroetype of how a black man looks, as it was suggested earlier.
This is an excellent solution that makes perfect sense, and it will still make a lot of people very angry.
Anyway, kids don't care.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Chuckie
Member
While I agree with almost everything about this post, I am not sure if it isn't going anytime soon. I am seeing more and more Dutchies (white ones) that are changing their mind and feel that it is time for a change. Of course it is anecdotal, so I could be wrong, but I truly believe things will change.
The majority is still ignorant af though, I admit to that.
Another funny thing is that kids indeed DON'T care about what color Piet has. They just want their candies and presents. It's mostly the older folk who want to keep them black because, you guessed it, "muh nostalgia."
It may still be a regional thing, I live in the South where it's mostly rural areas and small villages (I live in a medium sized city which stil shows strong support for Zwarte Piet though). I'm sure that in the Randstad for example things are progressing differently than in Brabant
Yeah I think my assumption about it not going away was based on anecdotal evidence too.
It may still be a regional thing, I live in the South where it's mostly rural areas and small villages (I live in a medium sized city which stil shows strong support for Zwarte Piet though). I'm sure that in the Randstad for example things are progressing differently than in Brabant
lightskintwin
Banned
I know how his original incarnation looked, that wasn't my point. My point was American minstrelsy became a sensation in America and traveled to Europe and it's imagery traveled worldwide and heavily influenced how Zwarte Piet is depicted now; hence the reason I said "affect" instead of "create" in my original post.
Nobody cared in Belgium. The discussion isn't as polarised here as it is in the Netherlands, though two or three years back it was an issue, with especially on social media a lot of heated reactions, but in the end it all died down fast. We Belgians are probably a bit more down to earth then the Dutch...
When the Zwarte Piet of the movie was shown, there were some raised eyebrows, but then everybody went like: oh, that actually makes sense. I have to state that the actor has played Zwarte Piet for years too (he was the 'official' Piet for me as a kid even, 20 years ago). For a lot of kids he is the image they have of Zwarte Piet...
TBiddy
Member
At best, that's speculative - but fair enough, I must've misunderstood your post then.
Chuckie
Member
A good example of this would be the comic Sjors and Sjimmy, which was based on an American comic
Fortunately the comic did get modernized
lightskintwin
Banned
A good example of this would be the comic Sjors and Sjimmy, which was based on an American comic
Fortunately the comic did get modernized
It's why Square's Tom Sawyer game had the same depiction:
I think people just don't know how big Minstrelsy was and how influential it's imagery has been worldwide.
Given the limited cultural impact of minstrel shows in Europe, one should rather point at the Dutch colonial history and the general history of the caricature/stereotypical depiction of black people in Europe.
Edit:
Although I think that was your intention, so please just ignore this post.
Magic Mushroom
Member
Yeah I think my assumption about it not going away was based on anecdotal evidence too.
It may still be a regional thing, I live in the South where it's mostly rural areas and small villages (I live in a medium sized city which stil shows strong support for Zwarte Piet though). I'm sure that in the Randstad for example things are progressing differently than in Brabant
Couldn't you pick another province than Brabant?
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